Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Frostfox]

I too totally distrust what the writers might do (though I have more hope for Brad Wright than RCC, who absolutely eviscerated the character of Jack O'Neill in the seasons RCC was showrunner) but hopefully, the writers will realize they've written themselves into another corner with that non-sensical Jack retires idea, since Carter is going off to Atlantis.
Why would Jack retire to spend his time sitting home alone waiting for Carter to show up?
It might be a win-win situation for Carter (she gets to keep her career and gets the man of her dreams on those rare occasions she's available, so the Carter fans would love the idea), but even if you buy into Jack being in love with Carter (lust, sure, he's a guy; love, never seen it from him), what would he gain from it? He gives up his career and gets what in return? An occasional roll in the hay? Now he's out of the loop with what's happening with the SGC AND he's still eating/sleeping/living alone.
Thinking Jack's spent 10 years, or even 5 years, pining over Carter isn't romantic luuuv, but turns him into someone pitiful, and *that* is not the Jack O'Neill I know.

I've seen lust but not love and I totally agree with the above.

And it would have killed Sam's career, even if there was no longer chain of command issues, there would be talk and innuendo. If they left it for five, ten years since working together, the moment it came out, Sam would be shafted, her career over as the assumption would be that she slept her way to the top. It's unfair, it's a double standard and it's not true, but it's exactly what would happen and I just can't see Jack O'Neil doing that to her, he knows what it means to her. He's neither that stupid or that cruel.

I don't think the writers ever considered the ramifications of a relationship between two people on the same team or Sam and Jack in particular and I don't think they ever were going to go anywhere with the relationship anyway for fear of alienating the Airforce. It was all tease, no resolution, it was never going to be. They strung the fans of the relationship on for years, if I was one of them, I'd be ticked off.
And now the show is over.
They can't do any more character assasination on either of them.

FF

[Killdeer]

I was always saddened that they took away all the potential for a lovely mentor/pupil relationship between Sam and Jack by making the cheap sexual innuendo between them. It would have been so much more mature and iconoclastic to keep them as Commanding Officer and 2IC and showing how he grooms her for command, how they act like honourable members of the USAF despite the difference in gender.

Wow. I've never come in here before, although I have posted a few times on the anti-ship thread. But it's weird that I should come in here and find this post, because I've been thinking the exact same thing recently in reflecting on Sam and what could have been. Really, S/J didn't just hurt Sam, it hurt Jack too.

[scarimor]

I still find the animosity between the S/J fans and the D/J fans weird, we managed to get along just fine in DS9 fandom, all the different pairings, het or queer. There was some frission between the Jadzia/Julian and Jadzia/Worf fans, but it wasn't viscious and as both managed to 'get the worm' in the end, it all ended up fine.

FF

I don't think it's so much animosity between S/J fans and D/J fans. Having watched it as someone who is definitely not a S/J fan, but reads a bit of J/D (and has even been known to write some! ), I've come to the conclusion that it's a pretty one-sided phenomenon of a few hard-core Daniel-fans (not J/D slashers per se, but some will be that as well) who see the canon S/J (such as it is) as a threat, and see Sam's story-lines as a threat to Daniel's status.

Frankly, I do not know any S/J shipper who gives two hoots about J/D stuff, because any slash is in fanfic and they don't read it. Jack and Daniel on-screen friendship is hardly a rival to the on-screen Sam/Jack we've endured been treated to over seasons 4 to 7. What they (and many fans, regardless of their prefered pairings or non-shippery tendencies) do roll their eyes at (and a few get very mad about) is the long term campaign coming from the Daniel quarter by a few loudmouths against Sam (and even against Amanda) because she's 'in the way'.

Libelous entries on IMDB about Amanda, re-writing of episode scenes and dialogue (literally!) to re-cast Sam in a bad light, malicious comments to JM's blog etc. - this is not a ship rivalry. As you point out, ship rivals are perfectly capable of getting along. It's something far more distasteful. When a Daniel fan insists that "Stargate is Daniel's story" and "MS is co-lead with RDA, and AT (and by implication CJ too, but they don't mention that) is just a supporting actor" etc., things become clear.

I've never seen a S/J shipper moan that Jack/Daniel ruined their show (well they wouldn't, would they? Because slash isn't canon) or that Daniel gets too much screentime, or that Daniel is taking Jack away from Sam, or that Daniel is jealous of Sam. But the reverse is abundant among those select Daniel fans who seem to spend more time dissing a character they hate than talking about the one they love. Go elsewhere, and you'll see a thread dedicated to Sam's supposed jealousy of Daniel (really? Sam jealous of Daniel? Of what, precisely, and in which episode did her surprising jealousy manifest itself?)

Sure, some S/J shippers might insist on certain things that are pro their ship which we would dispute - e.g. that Sam and Jack are doing it Washington every time she visits, and that's why she's late back to the SGC ho ho ho - but again, that's nothing to do with Daniel or a rivalry with J/D slash. It just stands on its own. They are no more in conflict with J/D fans than they are with the femslashers.

As for the poor beleagured Sam/Daniel fans - I don't know what they can make of it

ETA: one of the most fun pr0n stories I read recently was a Sam/Jack/Daniel one. Now there's a solution

[Frostfox]

Libelous entries on IMDB about Amanda, re-writing of episode scenes and dialogue (literally!) to re-cast Sam in a bad light, malicious comments to JM's blog etc. - this is not a ship rivalry. As you point out, ship rivals are perfectly capable of getting along. It's something far more distasteful. When a Daniel fan insists that "Stargate is Daniel's story" and "MS is co-lead with RDA, and AT (and by implication CJ too, but they don't mention that) is just a supporting actor" etc., things become clear.

There are internet places I don't like because as well as being a slash fan, I am a Sam fan too. And in those sort of places, being a Sam fan is just not the done thing. I lurk there sometimes but their ethos isn't mine.

ETA: one of the most fun pr0n stories I read recently was a Sam/Jack/Daniel one. Now there's a solution

If it's the one paian reccomended from princessofg on LJ, oh yes, that was very, very hot. Hot.

FF

[Madeleine]

When a Daniel fan insists that "Stargate is Daniel's story" and "MS is co-lead with RDA, and AT (and by implication CJ too, but they don't mention that) is just a supporting actor" etc., things become clear.

Clear... that they like Daniel best? That's bad? Maybe they (like me) honestly though when watching the show at first that Daniel was The Main Character (really - I saw that Richard Dean Anderson was the name of the star, and spent a full season-and-a-half thinking that Richard Dean Anderson must be the pretty fella playing Daniel. And others watched it feeling that since James Spader was the star of Stargate (a valid enough view) that Daniel must be pretty key in SG-1.)

I'm sure I've frequently proposed that Stargate was Daniel's story (except when I was arguing that it was Teal'c story) because to be honest I think it is theirs more than Sam's or Jack's and of these two people who I think are the most important, Daniel certainly gets the bigger helping of screentime.

I'm wondering if anything has just become clear... and what it is

I've never seen a S/J shipper moan... that Daniel gets too much screentime, or that Daniel is taking Jack away from Sam

I have, plenty. Not here on GW very much though, so it really doesn't matter, does it?

All this vile stuff you see from 'certain Daniel fans', is it on GW? I can think of at most one poster who fits (and at most three Sam-fans at GW who get similarly extreme over Daniel and/or MS, two of whom haven't been around for months).

I think it's elsewhere though. Like most of the vileness in this fandom (I've visited an unmodded board or two - my poor eyes!) it's not on GW and we're happiest keeping it that way, please. Can we leave other people's filth wherever they left it and not bring it here please?

I still find the animosity between the S/J fans and the D/J fans weird

I don't think there *is* animosity between the S/J fans and the D/J fans, is there? Do you think there is - here on GW I mean?

What there once was was a small handful of 'leading lights' in each set from yonks ago who for various reasons made things unpleasant for everyone. They all left GW four or five years ago though and now confine themselves pretty well.

I noticed, in the past, a bit of tension between S/J-ers and anti-S/Jers, which has AFAICT disappeared in the past couple of years (a couple of years ago being about the last time some dopey troll posted how lame S/J was in the S/J thread and made the S/Jers feel edgy.) But here on GW? I've seen no S/J vs D/J animoosity at all.

[EarthandBeyond]

There were only a few relationships I could handle. Sam/Lantash, Sam/Daniel, and toward the end Cam/Vala... I would also have loved to see Jack/Sara. And I could handle Daniel/Sha'uri, at least it was canon from the movie.

I would never have bought a relationship between Sam/Jack because of the regulations. I found it extremely insulting to the US military which I happen to hold in high regard.

Pagan

“The heart does not recognize boundaries on a map, or wars, or political policies. The heart does as the heart does.”-Delenn, Babylon 5
Just because folks join military doesnt mean they automaticly become Robots.
To deny our own impulses is to deny the very thing that makes us human.-Mouse, The Matrix.

In fact, i see no reall reason in having thouse regulations at all, including the one about the lenght of your hair. No enemy will ever care how long your hair, really is. They going to shoot you anyway.

[Royal_Nonesuch]

And now the show is over.
They can't do any more character assasination on either of them.

FF

I am a Sam/Jack shipper , so I admit that my opinion is biased, but I came to the ship in a very roundabout way. I actually didn't like it at first (meaning some of the obvious innuendo in season 1). As it developed, however, I found it to be more nuanced than simple lust, or cliched tension. At the same time, I can understand many of thepoints being made in here. There is nothing worse than forced romance. Burdening action/sci-fi plotlines with cheap soap opera romance is not what anyone wants.

That being said, Sam and Jack, while displaying feleings for one another, have remained quite profesisonal. In fact, I think that is one of the better things about this ship. Instead of having Sam and Jack carry on an illicit behind the scenes romance, the two deicde to leave it. Actually, and uniquely, it's Sam who suggests that they leave their feelings in the "room" in "Divide and Conquer".

While I am hopeful for some kind of conclusion and resolution to their relationship, I would never want O'Neill, or Carter to appear as anything other than they are, and that is, devoted, excellent USAF officers. I have not seen anything in the series, thus far, that indicates otherwise. They have pushed some limits, perhaps, but I have never felt that either character has ill represented the USAF. Both RDA and AT have played it with restraint and class--never over the top.

I fully understand aversion, and even distatste, for the ship, but I don't think it has destroyed either character, or the image of the armed forces in the show.

Thanks for your time,
Royal

[Madeleine]

Just because folks join military doesnt mean they automaticly become Robots.

True. Which is why, if two military people are in love, the military would be sympathetic to their request for transfers that would enable them to cease working together.

To deny our own impulses is to deny the very thing that makes us human.-Mouse, The Matrix.

Sorry, but even if someone in The Matrix says it, it's not necessarily true. Lots of women spend 24 hours a day denying themselves the chocolate their impulses tell them to eat; and if people gave into their impulses as often as they have them we'd all be stony broke but with a very posh car. And yet the streets are filled with old bangers. Doesn't stop us all being human though

Animals have impulses and give into them. Humans have self-control. Others have argued that to give up one's self-control is to give up what sets us above the beasts.

In fact, i see no reall reason in having thouse regulations at all, including the one about the lenght of your hair. No enemy will ever care how long your hair, really is. They going to shoot you anyway.

They'll shoot you a damm sight more easilly if your long hair gets in your eyes and prevents you from noticing them

[scarimor]

Clear... that they like Daniel best?

No. When you read those posts which attack Sam's storylines (e.g. the Jolinar one) because they detract from true Stargate, which is "Daniel's story", it becomes clear why they're attacking Sam.

Sheesh, Madelaine, why do you have to torque stuff into something it's not? When those same few loudmouths are slagging off Amanda, it's clear what's going on. When those same few loudmouths are re-writing dialogue and the action in scenes to argue that Sam is jealous/incompetent/leaves people behind to die/killed Janet/betrayed the team etc. etc., it's clear what's going on.

At least to most people who have the misfortune to read it, anyway.

So what the hell has that got to do with liking Daniel best per se? Nothing. But it's got everything to do with seeing Sam as a threat to Daniel.

You understand the difference?

That's bad?

Yeah, what I described is very bad. Posting lies about what a bad mother AT is etc. is very bad indeed. Posting lies about why MS left after season 5 and blaming AT/Sam are pretty bad too. What you're describing (i.e. simply favouring Daniel) is innocuous and nothing to do with my post, so the question is redundant.

Plenty of people like Daniel. Plenty of people like him best. Tell me, because I'm really interested to know... why are you trying to pretend that I'm talking about people who "like Daniel best", when it is so clear from my post that I'm not? I really want to know why you are trying to twist my words like that. You see, I find it difficult to believe that you really can not distinguish between:

• Daniel fans
• tiny group of Daniel fans who hate and publicly malign AT/Sam

And because I find it hard to believe that you can't, I kinda wonder...

Maybe they (like me) honestly though when watching the show at first that Daniel was The Main Character (really - I saw that Richard Dean Anderson was the name of the star, and spent a full season-and-a-half thinking that Richard Dean Anderson must be the pretty fella playing Daniel. And others watched it feeling that since James Spader was the star of Stargate (a valid enough view) that Daniel must be pretty key in SG-1.)

I get the sinking feeling you've missed the point I was making (again). Whether or not any actor/character got/gets more screentime isn't the issue. If TPTB wanted to give more to one character, fine. It's up to them. It's the claim that Sam was getting too much - more than she deserved because she was "just a supporting character" - which was and is part of the campaign against her. The "Stargate is Daniel's story" line is trotted out to attack Sam's role.

Besides, Stargate SG-1 isn't Stargate the Movie. It was a new show with new leads in J,S,D and T, and new supporting characters in Hammond, Janet etc. In fact Daniel didn't have any more screen time that Jack or Sam in those early seasons. Teal'c had a little less, and considerably less dialogue, but he too got his central episodes. All the leads were getting the screentime and storylines they did because they were all equally important from the original conception, not because something had changed and 'gone wrong' half way through the series. Even RDA, the clear lead actor, didn't get that much bigger stories.

But that's by-the-by. It's no problem if one of them gets marginally more story than the others. And that's the point. The attacks on AT's/Sam's role in the franchise are unjustified. She is a lead, from the beginning. They don't like it, tough. She didn't usurp squat.

I'm sure I've frequently proposed that Stargate was Daniel's story (except when I was arguing that it was Teal'c story) because to be honest I think it is theirs more than Sam's or Jack's and of these two people who I think are the most important, Daniel certainly gets the bigger helping of screentime.

Fine if that's your perception and your feeling. But tell me, are you also slagging off Amanda, screaming for Sam's court martial to remove her from the series, moaning that Sam has usurped Daniel's place at Jack's side, having a hissy fit that AT's working on Atlantis instead of MS, and posting to JM's blog that you can't stand the sight of her at every opportunity... and justifying it with your perception that Stargate is, after all, Daniel's Story? Because if you're not, you ain't one of the people I'm talking about. So ditch that cap, honey

I'm wondering if anything has just become clear... and what it is

I have, plenty. Not here on GW very much though, so it really doesn't matter, does it?

You have? Please point me to it. I've been on countless Livejournals, forums, mailing lists and never seen it once. Seriously. Not once have I seen any J/S shipper complain that Daniel has usurped Sam's place in Jack's affections, gets more attention from him than she should, etc. We are talking about the context of S/J v. J/D, after all. You did note the title of the thread (anti S/J ship) and the subject of my post -S/J v. J/D ship/slash?

Or are you trying to discuss another subject?

All this vile stuff you see from 'certain Daniel fans', is it on GW?

If it were don't you think it would have been reported? Heck, the libelous stuff gets reported to webmasters and deleted asap (except where the mods are in on it - then they leave some of it up with the "caveat" that they've disclaimed it ).

I think it's elsewhere though. Like most of the vileness in this fandom (I've visited an unmodded board or two - my poor eyes!) it's not on GW and we're happiest keeping it that way, please. Can we leave other people's filth wherever they left it and not bring it here please?

Listen, as far as I'm concerned this is a legitimate discussion about S/J and J/D ship rivalry in fandom, and whether or not it's really that and exists as such, or whether it is in fact something else as I described which might be mistaken for it. If you want to censor discussion about fandom, please do it openly and stick a banning order on the FAQ so we all know what's allowed and what's not, ok?

I don't think there *is* animosity between the S/J fans and the D/J fans, is there? Do you think there is - here on GW I mean?

No, that was my whole point. Not just not on GW - not in the wider fandom. I read (and occasionally write) J/D slash. I get on absolutely fine with S/J shippers. My point was that it's another phenomenon which might be mistaken for that.

And if you are going to ban discussion of fandom, I'm out of this forum.

edited for appalling spelling errors

[scarimor]

There are internet places I don't like because as well as being a slash fan, I am a Sam fan too. And in those sort of places, being a Sam fan is just not the done thing. I lurk there sometimes but their ethos isn't mine.

I think it put me off writing. I found (and still do) the Jack/Daniel dynamic very appealing (way more than any slash pairing from any other fandom), but the unpleasantness in the community made it difficult to enjoy. The culprits are very small in number but disproportionately loud. I can remember the moment I left one list - I'd just got some good feedback for a short J/D peice from one of them, and with her next post she was dissing AT's personal integrity. It soured it. I've written more genfic than slash now

If it's the one paian reccomended from princessofg on LJ, oh yes, that was very, very hot. Hot.

S/J/D can get very steamy, can't it? There's one I've been trying to find to read again set on an alien planet which is very humorous as well as hot - they have to prove they're not virgins so the locals don't feed them up to a dragon or something! But I can't remember the name or title. Ring any bells?

[EarthandBeyond]

True. Which is why, if two military people are in love, the military would be sympathetic to their request for transfers that would enable them to cease working together.

Why, why? whats wrong with two people, that find an attruction for eachother, working toghether? Wouldnt it be more of an Inspiration for the both of them, in there line of work?

Sorry, but even if someone in The Matrix says it, it's not necessarily true. Lots of women spend 24 hours a day denying themselves the chocolate their impulses tell them to eat; and if people gave into their impulses as often as they have them we'd all be stony broke but with a very posh car. And yet the streets are filled with old bangers. Doesn't stop us all being human though

Dont need to appologies, please. Because of course its not necessarily true, in fact everything one see on TV arent necessarily true. I find TV be a form of control over our population. First they get you addicted to it, then they find a way to control your mind and emotion throught it. And the next thing you know, you are not incontrol of your own life anymore. - i personely find this ruther disturbing, wouldnt you say?
But as for a chocolate, No no no no - shouldnt denie such pleasures in your life. Because you never know how long your life will last. It can end in a minute, an hour, a week, a year. And at the end of it, its good to know you had no regrets in it.

Animals have impulses and give into them. Humans have self-control. Others have argued that to give up one's self-control is to give up what sets us above the beasts.

Oh yea, animals, well some of them can be very pretty and impulsive. But then, wouldnt having to much self-control would turn us in to some sort of emotionless Robots? If you think about it, wouldnt it be better to be more of a beast, then a robot?

They'll shoot you a damm sight more easilly if your long hair gets in your eyes and prevents you from noticing them

Oh yea, it can be really really annoying.

[scarimor]

Why, why? whats wrong with two people, that find an attruction for eachother, working toghether? Wouldnt it be more of an Inspiration for the both of them, in there line of work?

It's not the "working together" part that's a problem, it's the chain of command issue. A question of one person's undue loyalty to another in a command structure.

[Madeleine]

Sheesh, Madelaine, why do you have to torque stuff into something it's not?

I was trying to get my head around the relevance of what you were saying. I still don't see it as at all relevant.

When those same few loudmouths are slagging off Amanda, it's clear what's going on. When those same few loudmouths are re-writing dialogue...

Emphasis mine. I agree that they exist, and that they are few. What I don't agree with is that they have an effect on the wider fandom; at least not to the extent of causing hostilities between entire fan-groups.

So what the hell has that got to do with liking Daniel best per se? Nothing. But it's got everything to do with seeing Sam as a threat to Daniel.

You understand the difference?

Yes, but I still don't see what it has to do with "the animosity between the S/J fans and the D/J fans" which is so phrased as to imply that this animosity is both factual and universal. Perhaps if the post had read "animosity between certain groups of S/J fans and D/J fans"... but the definite article pretty much implied that the two gangs are actively hostile in general.

... why are you trying to pretend that I really want to know why you are trying to twist my words

That's uncalled for. It's pretty - well, telling people they're 'pretending' is something pretty strong. I'm not pretending. I'm not twisting your words - though it seems to me that you're misunderstanding my intent every bit as much as I've (and still am, perhaps) misunderstood yours)

... why are you trying to pretend thatI'm talking about people who "like Daniel best", when it is so clear from my post that I'm not? I really want to know why you are trying to twist my words like that. You see, I find it difficult to believe that you really can not distinguish between:

• Daniel fans
• tiny group of Daniel fans who hate and publicly malign AT/Sam

Because I find it so strange that it's considered so relevant that the nasties are Daniel fans. There are nasties about, yes. There's a habit among some of pointing out at every opportunity that the anti-AT nasties are Daniel Fans. Why, I wonder? What has their liking of Daniel got to do with it?

And if they do dislike Sam as a consequence of their liking for Daniel, or even if they downgrade Sam's importance in order to puff Daniel or D/J, does that mean that they are automatically going to be hostile to Real People who are Sam-fans or S/Jers?

I see that you were bringing up that they were Daniel fans in order to answer the point about "the animosity between the S/J fans and the D/J fans" but do you really think that such a tiny faction can have an effect such as setting two entire subsets of shippers against each other? I don't - but I do wonder if the repitition of the theory that there is animosity is itself a cause of the animosoty.

I cannot agree that a tiny number of crazies (who, like you said, may or may not be slashers) are relevant to inter-ship relations in general.

There's no excuse for being nasty about any actor, but so what if someone disses a fictional character? I don't see the relevance of what people feel about Sam to how well they play with the rest of fandom.

I have friends here who don't think much of Vala; they say horrible things about her. Some of them even say how she's taken over too much, how Sam was set aside for her. And I think she's fab. I don't have animosity for them nor they for me, and I think that's pretty much taken for granted. So why should it be any different if the dislike were of Sam?

You have? Please point me to it. I've been on countless Livejournals, forums, mailing lists and never seen it once. Seriously. Not once have I seen any J/S shipper complain that Daniel has usurped Sam's place in Jack's affections, gets more attention from him than she should, etc.

No, i'm not sharing details of train wrecks i've seen. just a policy I have, sorry.

We are talking about the context of S/J v. J/D, after all. You did note the title of the thread (anti S/J ship) and the subject of my post -S/J v. J/D ship/slash?

Or are you trying to discuss another subject?

I had wondered if you were. You were talking more about the AT-bashers than either type of shippers.

Like I know that there are women who hate men and men who hate women, but they are the fringe minority sorts, and so not a terribly good answer to the question of automatic animosity between men and women: because I think that there isn't any general animosity between men and women.

Does that make it clearer what I mean?

Listen, as far as I'm concerned this is a legitimate discussion about S/J and J/D ship rivalry in fandom, and whether or not it's really that and exists as such,

That was what I was trying to do too: whether or not it really exists and whether it's really that - and whether it even matters. It exists, just like there exist a few nutjobs who follow folk music and a few nutjobs among those who prefer country; but that's not enough to make me think that you could talk about "the animosity between the folkies and the country fans", not when the vast majority of music fans are happy together.

No, that was my whole point. Not just not on GW - not in the wider fandom. I read (and occasionally write) J/D slash. I get on absolutely fine with S/J shippers. My point was that it's another phenomenon which might be mistaken for that.

I still don't see why. I think you're mixing two issues that are separate. I see that you and I are going to disagree on this though.

And if you are going to ban discussion of fandom, I'm out of this forum.

No, discussing fandom is okay; where it's on topic. Though I'm not sure if we are...

[JessM]

The thing with Unending, TPTB managed to do the unthinkable and have
anti shippers and S/J shippers on the same side to an extent.

A lot of S/J shippers were annoyed because of what they did with D/V they couldn't do with S/J, which IMO is a fair point, why is one ok but not the other?
Personally I wish they'd just leave both well alone but a bit late for one of them...

I just posted something more or less the same in the anti-ship thread, and I remember someone else saying it in the anti-S10 thread too. From what I've heard from various S/J shippers is that they were angry that they supposedly resolved this D/V thing when Daniel and Vala have only known each other for a couple of years, but the S/J thing has been going on for much longer than that.

Now I am concerned about the movies, some shippers are convinced there will be S/J in Continuum, I really hope there isn't but it wouldn't suprise me if they did something, these days I remain skeptical about what TPTB do, you just never know what they're going to do I really, really hope they don't have something like Jack retiring so he can go and be with Sam....ick.....

I was a bit concerned too after I heard that RDA was going to be in Continuum. Don't get me wrong - I'm glad he will be in at least one of the movies, but I hope that their interaction will be as it was in The Shroud... that nice feeling that they'd been friends for a long time. I know the s/j shippers would like more and that's their right but I personally wouldn't want any mention of Jack retiring etc.

I remember reading about that RDA rumour, could never believe it myself and think that those 200 Jack/Daniel outtake scenes and what RDA said about them might have dispelled it
IMO I found that Tracy/Hepburn comparison ridiculous, I'm not dissing MS here, I just occasionally disagree with some of the things he says....
Stargate is supposed to be a team show not centred around two characters, but that's a little off topic........
Of course there is an opinion floating around in various places that Vala is just a Jack substitute, just saying.....

I agree about the Tracy/Hepburn thing... I remember that quote from MS and I'm not dissing him either, but I don't see any kind of "love tension" or anything like that between Daniel and Vala.

I also thought I read a quote from MS where he said something about how good the J/D dynamic was and now they're having it again with D/V, the banter and everything. I can't compare the two.

[Madeleine]

Why, why? whats wrong with two people, that find an attruction for eachother, working toghether? Wouldnt it be more of an Inspiration for the both of them, in there line of work?

It might be, at times, but that all falls to pieces as soon as the messy split occurs. What, Sam and Jack are so in love that they'd never split / never split messily? Okay, I'll run with that for you, but then so is everyone that much in love that they'd never split... right up till they split . And the only way to prevent messy splits is to prevent the fraternisation in the first place, including for those who'd never ever split.

It can lead to other unpleasantnesses. For instance, what if Major X thinks that her boyfriend Lieutenant Y is the best canditate for a plum mission? she gives it to him, and Lieutenant Z and his friend who think he was the ideal candidate get jealous. Or she second-guesses herself and wonders if she is prejudiced or pre-empts the gossiping by handing the role to a less qualified sort. it's lose-lose. Or in a split second decision, which of two soldiers does she save? No matter how well she makes her decision, if it's her BF who she feels is the one to save there'll be guilt, recrimination, accusations...

The inspiration you speak of can work fine with platonic relationships and fine between a junior and a senior officer in separate units. It's not a good enough reason to allow sexual relationships between people in the same chain of command; or to allow officers who are having a relationship to report to each other.

But as for a chocolate, No no no no - shouldnt denie such pleasures in your life. Because you never know how long your life will last. It can end in a minute, an hour, a week, a year. And at the end of it, its good to know you had no regrets in it.

A policy of living for today may suit some, but it doesn't suit others. If I overeat on chocolate, my sporting abilities suffer, and i'd regret that in the long term, but the chocolate I only regret in the short term. There's always a payoff. If two officers have an impulse, they can follow it and take the consequences (transferring to another unit, hardly a big deal) or they can choose work over love - and if your work is that wonderful or important, then perhaps it would be worth the regrets.

Oh yea, animals, well some of them can be very pretty and impulsive. But then, wouldnt having to much self-control would turn us in to some sort of emotionless Robots? If you think about it, wouldnt it be better to be more of a beast, then a robot?

I don't think that refraining from getting together with a fellow officer with whom you have NO CHEMISTRY AT ALL (sorry - but this is the thread in which to say that ) is not enough of a big deal to turn you into a robot. Sex life is one of many many thins that make us human, and a single decision about who not to have as your life-partner isn't going to make you any less passionate about music, chess, motorcycles, any less fond of your family and friends, any less committed to your job, or any less capable of changing your mind when the time is right

Oh yea, it can be really really annoying.

Hurrah for elastic!