Tok'ra Thunk/Discussion/Appreciation thread

[Sparky She-Demon]

[Pagan Twylight]

We don't know the age of any of the Tok'ra, except Selmak (she is approximately 2000 years old). Of course, we also know that Egeria is more than 2000 years old, since Anise says Egeria started the Tok'ra around 2000 years ago.

Further, we know that Selmak is the oldest of the Tok'ra (but probably born by Egeria, unless she was one of those who was originally Goa'uld, like Egeria - and according to most people, Jolinar and Garshaw were also originally Goa'uld).

Almost all the Tok'ra were born Tok'ra, by Egeria, so almost all the Tok'ra would have been born sometime during those 2000 years the Tok'ra have existed. Probably in clutches spanning many centuries or more. We don't know when Egeria was captured and put in that stasis jar, where the Pangarans found her.

Fanfic authors speculate on the ages of the various Tok'ra, and on when Egeria was placed in the stasis jar. I know Roeskva and Hathor_girl has Lantash being fairly young (explaining his fiery temper etc. somewhat with his youth). I think Roeskva assumes he is maybe 570-580 years old, and in Egeria's last clutch, before she was captured.

I think that is correct for Roeskva, whereas I put Lantash as being one of the elder born, but not as old as Selmak. I think it probably depends on what type of personality you use for him and how you want the other Tok'Ra to view him. I prefer to set him as older and therefore with a little more respect and experience, whereas others prefer him to be younger and more malleable, less set in his personality, I suppose you could say. My Lantash is definitely decisive and strong-willed...or as Martouf admits quite "passionate" in his beliefs. Perhaps, being older myself, I prefer him that way, too. I like all kinds of Lantashes, though, and enjoy reading him be he young or old, as long as he gets Sam in the end.

Pagan

[Pagan Twylight]

Meushell (mostly Sam/Martouf/Lantash ship), though she?, like Drewandian and Ivanolix, haven't really written anything recently. Ivanolix's Compromised is a long and great read, but probably not something to look at if you haven't watched season 2, Jo-Ann. Ololon's Red Queen is wonderful. If you later want to read ship (that is, mostly Sam/Martouf/Lantash ship), then none is better than Pagan Twylight.

Thank you. That certainly made my day. And is making all of my WIPs, as well as my sequel to An Alliance of Friends, scream pick me!, pick me! to work on next. As soon as this nasty bug I've managed to play host to gets a little farther down the road to being gone, I will have to pick one and just start on it.

Pagan

[Pagan Twylight]

After reading many pages of posts, I have a comment or two, er, or perhaps more, to make. Many have mentioned the change in the Tok'Ra after season four. The Tok'Ra were the child of one of the originators of SG-1, Jonathan Glassner. He left the show after the third season. At some point, after he left the show, Cooper, Wood, and others let it be known that they planned to make people forget the original Tok'Ra ever existed. They wanted Sam/Jack ship, and since Martouf/Lantash appeared after they killed him off, to have a rather good following, they began the degradation of the Tok'Ra, turning them more and more toward Goa'uld, and thus also began Jack's morphing into an intolerant, cretin.

During the first three seasons, it is not unusual to see the host. Aldwin was the host. Jacob, Martouf, Yosuuf, were all hosts, as was Freya. Note that in those first few seasons, we know the host's names, but not always, as in Aldwin's case, the symbiote's name. After Glassner left the show, a slow change began to take place that ramped up quickly after season Four. From Season Five on, the Tok'Ra were made to appear more and more arrogant, and Goa'uld-like. Just as they made clear they planned to do. It is known, that some actors who couldn't make certain episodes, had the episodes rescheduled so that they would be available. Not so for JR Bourne, when it came time to return Martouf and Lantash to the show. At this late date in time, I can't point you to the places the comments were made, or name names as to whose episodes were moved in order for them to be available. Too much time has passed, but I was active, at the time, and I remember how angry I was, when I read their comments about blackening the Tok'Ra, and how other actors episodes were juggled, so that they would be able to appear in the original script without rewriting it.

Cooper and Wood, especially, and Mallozzi, I believe though am not sure, all made comments about this and how they wanted to wipe Tok'Ra I and II out of the memories of the fans.

If one watches Tok'Ra I and II in an unbiased way, several things stand out. The Tok'Ra blend through the mouth. Sam had her mouth over Jolinar's host's mouth, in the middle of an attack. Who's going to ask? The Tok'Ra are arrogant, but nothing like the Goa'uld, and Garshaw's reaction, to our evident "disgust" of joining with a Tok'Ra, colored her view of us. I can't say I blame her. At the end of Tok'Ra II Garshaw kisses Jack O'Neill and is quite cordial to General Hammond, even as she refuses to stay and talk to him. She also tells Jack that she would be proud to call him friend, even if the council does not yet see their merit, and that it is worth working toward a closer agreement. It was very obvious that Sam and Martouf/Lantash were meant to become a pairing. The chemistry was there between the characters, and the dialog would naturally extend in that direction. There were other things, as well, but those were the ones that have always stood out to me.

I have always wondered if Glassner actually wanted to leave because he didn't want to stay passed the third season, as they (cooper, wood, et al) assured us, or if there was too much strife between the directors/writers/producers as to which way Sam's love life should go with Glassner perhaps remaining adamant that he would not go against the military regs, which the others were all for throwing them out and, in fact, did their best to do so, even to the point, or so I was told, that the military pulled their advisor for a time because they refused to okay the ship between sam/jack...as they should have. That I do not know other than as hearsay. The other things, said by cooper, wood, mallozzi, I read myself, however, as I said, so long ago now that I can't even begin to tell you where.

One last comment; As for a comment about coming to hate Jack's character...I did, as well. I loved him in the first three seasons, he was okay in the fourth, but by the fifth, I was beginning to dislike him...more and more. In fact, I suggested to Mallozzi at one point that if RDA wanted out so badly, why not just kill him off...please. Please, kill him off. He did not appreciate my solution to their dilemma. What can I say? By that point, I was heartily sick of his sarcastic, intolerant, prejudiced one liners. He had become a jerk. They killed off everyone else, so why not him? I still think it would have been the best way to stop our torture...

I said that was my last comment, but I have one more. Someone commented that Martouf didn't seem "in character" in Ripple Effect. He wasn't, because they pretended that Lantash was not there. JR did a great job of separating the two individual personalities. Without Lantash, he was not in character...at least that is the part of him that I missed. It also pissed me off that they had them breaking up. There was NO excuse for doing that anymore than than there was a reason to kill Egeria.

End of Rant, er that is, comments.

Pagan

[Sparky She-Demon]

JR Bourne did do a very good job of playing the two distinct personalities of Martouf and Lantash. Not many people could pull it off that well.

[Hathor_girl]

After reading many pages of posts, I have a comment or two, er, or perhaps more, to make. Many have mentioned the change in the Tok'Ra after season four. The Tok'Ra were the child of one of the originators of SG-1, Jonathan Glassner. He left the show after the third season. At some point, after he left the show, Cooper, Wood, and others let it be known that they planned to make people forget the original Tok'Ra ever existed. They wanted Sam/Jack ship, and since Martouf/Lantash appeared after they killed him off, to have a rather good following, they began the degradation of the Tok'Ra, turning them more and more toward Goa'uld, and thus also began Jack's morphing into an intolerant, cretin.

Wow, I never knew they actually said they wanted to change the Tok'ra! I mean, this makes so much sense! That is how they wrote the Tok'ra after that point, so it totally makes sense as a decision between them. *very angry at those writers/producers*

During the first three seasons, it is not unusual to see the host. Aldwin was the host. Jacob, Martouf, Yosuuf, were all hosts, as was Freya. Note that in those first few seasons, we know the host's names, but not always, as in Aldwin's case, the symbiote's name. After Glassner left the show, a slow change began to take place that ramped up quickly after season Four. From Season Five on, the Tok'Ra were made to appear more and more arrogant, and Goa'uld-like. Just as they made clear they planned to do. It is known, that some actors who couldn't make certain episodes, had the episodes rescheduled so that they would be available. Not so for JR Bourne, when it came time to return Martouf and Lantash to the show. At this late date in time, I can't point you to the places the comments were made, or name names as to whose episodes were moved in order for them to be available. Too much time has passed, but I was active, at the time, and I remember how angry I was, when I read their comments about blackening the Tok'Ra, and how other actors episodes were juggled, so that they would be able to appear in the original script without rewriting it.

I have always wondered about why they couldn't just move Martouf and Lantash's return-episode just a little bit so it worked with JR Bourne's schedule, because as you, I have heard of them moving it for others. I would not be surprised if this was part of a plan to not have them back. I am not usually one for conspiracies, but this fits so well with everything, that I am more than willing to believe it.

Cooper and Wood, especially, and Mallozzi, I believe though am not sure, all made comments about this and how they wanted to wipe Tok'Ra I and II out of the memories of the fans.

If one watches Tok'Ra I and II in an unbiased way, several things stand out. The Tok'Ra blend through the mouth. Sam had her mouth over Jolinar's host's mouth, in the middle of an attack. Who's going to ask? The Tok'Ra are arrogant, but nothing like the Goa'uld, and Garshaw's reaction, to our evident "disgust" of joining with a Tok'Ra, colored her view of us. I can't say I blame her. At the end of Tok'Ra II Garshaw kisses Jack O'Neill and is quite cordial to General Hammond, even as she refuses to stay and talk to him. She also tells Jack that she would be proud to call him friend, even if the council does not yet see their merit, and that it is worth working toward a closer agreement. It was very obvious that Sam and Martouf/Lantash were meant to become a pairing. The chemistry was there between the characters, and the dialog would naturally extend in that direction. There were other things, as well, but those were the ones that have always stood out to me.

I have always wondered if Glassner actually wanted to leave because he didn't want to stay passed the third season, as they (cooper, wood, et al) assured us, or if there was too much strife between the directors/writers/producers as to which way Sam's love life should go with Glassner perhaps remaining adamant that he would not go against the military regs, which the others were all for throwing them out and, in fact, did their best to do so, even to the point, or so I was told, that the military pulled their advisor for a time because they refused to okay the ship between sam/jack...as they should have. That I do not know other than as hearsay. The other things, said by cooper, wood, mallozzi, I read myself, however, as I said, so long ago now that I can't even begin to tell you where.

One last comment; As for a comment about coming to hate Jack's character...I did, as well. I loved him in the first three seasons, he was okay in the fourth, but by the fifth, I was beginning to dislike him...more and more. In fact, I suggested to Mallozzi at one point that if RDA wanted out so badly, why not just kill him off...please. Please, kill him off. He did not appreciate my solution to their dilemma. What can I say? By that point, I was heartily sick of his sarcastic, intolerant, prejudiced one liners. He had become a jerk. They killed off everyone else, so why not him? I still think it would have been the best way to stop our torture...

I said that was my last comment, but I have one more. Someone commented that Martouf didn't seem "in character" in Ripple Effect. He wasn't, because they pretended that Lantash was not there. JR did a great job of separating the two individual personalities. Without Lantash, he was not in character...at least that is the part of him that I missed. It also pissed me off that they had them breaking up. There was NO excuse for doing that anymore than than there was a reason to kill Egeria.

End of Rant, er that is, comments.

Pagan

I do think Lantash was supposed to be there in Ripple Effect - they just forgot about writing anything for him. However, I am sure JR Bourne played Martouf that way because he was told to play just Martouf - and because Martouf and Lantash would have had to usually let Martouf be in control, when on Earth, I guess?

JR Bourne did do a very good job of playing the two distinct personalities of Martouf and Lantash. Not many people could pull it off that well.

Yes, oh yes, to JR Bourne doing a FANTASTIC job of playing those two characters as distinct personalities. He is an amazing actor, and I cannot begin to imagine how difficult it must be to do so like that - just switching back and forth between them!

I have read him say that he very much wanted to have played Martouf and Lantash many more times, and "explore the dual personalities", which apparently fascinated him. I dealt wish they would (have) let him!

[Hathor_girl]

Oh, and hi, Pagan! Didn't know you had an account here!

[Hathor_girl]

Amnesty posting is still going on for tokra_kree:

DW: http://tokra-kree.dreamwidth.org/6764.html
LJ: http://tokra-kree.livejournal.com/7412.html

They also have a poll up, asking for input on length of each round, and if there is something people would like to see done differently.

DW: http://tokra-kree.dreamwidth.org/7118.html
LJ: http://tokra-kree.livejournal.com/7898.html

You need either DW/LJ id, or openid to vote, but anyone can comment on the post, even anonymously - and I'm sure they'll at least read all the comments, so go ahead, even if you don't have an account there! That is, if you're at all interested in Tok'ra related fanworks, of course

[Sparky She-Demon]

Wow, I never knew they actually said they wanted to change the Tok'ra! I mean, this makes so much sense! That is how they wrote the Tok'ra after that point, so it totally makes sense as a decision between them. *very angry at those writers/producers*



I have always wondered about why they couldn't just move Martouf and Lantash's return-episode just a little bit so it worked with JR Bourne's schedule, because as you, I have heard of them moving it for others. I would not be surprised if this was part of a plan to not have them back. I am not usually one for conspiracies, but this fits so well with everything, that I am more than willing to believe it.



I do think Lantash was supposed to be there in Ripple Effect - they just forgot about writing anything for him. However, I am sure JR Bourne played Martouf that way because he was told to play just Martouf - and because Martouf and Lantash would have had to usually let Martouf be in control, when on Earth, I guess?



Yes, oh yes, to JR Bourne doing a FANTASTIC job of playing those two characters as distinct personalities. He is an amazing actor, and I cannot begin to imagine how difficult it must be to do so like that - just switching back and forth between them!

I have read him say that he very much wanted to have played Martouf and Lantash many more times, and "explore the dual personalities", which apparently fascinated him. I dealt wish they would (have) let him!

Mallozi is on a sh*t list of mine for several reasons! What he did to the Tok'ra and the fact he axed Elizabeth Weir!!!

Glad you agree with me about the skill it took to play two different personalities!

[Pagan Twylight]

Oh, and hi, Pagan! Didn't know you had an account here!

Hi. Yes, it seems that I have been here since May of 2004, but as you can tell, I don't post much. I do try to catch up every once in a while and comment when it seems I have something to say.

Pagan

[Pagan Twylight]

Wow, I never knew they actually said they wanted to change the Tok'ra! I mean, this makes so much sense! That is how they wrote the Tok'ra after that point, so it totally makes sense as a decision between them. *very angry at those writers/producers*

I rarely watch TV or movies, since I tend to read and write. Stargate was an anomaly for me. However, that being said, should I ever again get involved in watching a show, it will not be one on which any of them have any input whatsoever. I will Never become involved in watching anything of which any of them are a part.

I also remember reading somewhere that they began the push to put Sam with Jack when they realized that Daniel Jackson was seen as her perfect match early on in the show, and they felt that since RDA was the "star" that she should be with him, although, obviously, Glassner disagreed, and therefore, tried to put her with Martouf/Lantash. I don't know if he was responsible for the Tollan or not, but I have always assumed not, since I never saw it mentioned, and I never looked to see who wrote that episode. So, maybe he was.

It seems to me that the majority of writers tend to put the 'girl' with the human male. I've never understood the reason, since to me the alien, if humanoid, in some way, (as the Tok'Ra are once in a host) are much more interesting, than a human male. I think that is why the Elves take our imaginations so strongly. They are not human...and yet...they are, but in a much more beautiful way. But, enough of that.

I have always wondered about why they couldn't just move Martouf and Lantash's return-episode just a little bit so it worked with JR Bourne's schedule, because as you, I have heard of them moving it for others. I would not be surprised if this was part of a plan to not have them back. I am not usually one for conspiracies, but this fits so well with everything, that I am more than willing to believe it.

I don't know that I would call it a conspiracy. I have always assumed it was simply two separate visions of which way the show would go and, since Glassner was probably under contract for a certain amount of time or episodes, when his time was over, instead of agreeing to stay on, he simply threw in his hand, deciding, perhaps, that the hassle just wasn't worth it. I would imagine that he had to fight for every inch that he gained and, after awhile, that becomes too stressful a situation with which to contend. So, he left, which was no doubt a good decision for him personally, and a terrible decision for those of us that did not want to see any Sam/Jack ship take place in any form, other than the Mentor/father figure/friend, in which I have always seen them.

If one looks at the early episodes, their distance in age and experience shouts out at you. He is obviously very much older, and it is his responsibility to guide her in her new role as what would become a combat ground soldier. She flew planes in the Gulf War. She was already experienced in war, but not as a front-line ground soldier. And, by the way, in the first many episodes, she looks very young. Perhaps early twenties, which couldn't be correct, if she was indeed flying in the Gulf War. I would figure, since that was '91 she would have had to be, assuming, at least, four years at the Air Force Academy, prior to it, (unless she entered at a very young age, and I don't know how old one must be to be accepted there) twenty-two at graduation. (we don't know when or where she attained her doctorate, or if it was before or after the war.) So, if she was twenty-two in '91 then in, (when did the show start? I only watched after it was on sci-fi), then if it was in, say '98, then she would have been about twenty-nine, in which case they made her look much too young in the first episodes. That being said, we still have to put Jack O'Neill, already a Colonel, in his early to mid forties, a man who was still in love with his wife, and who life had picked up, chewed up, and spit out, more than once. There was nothing that could possibly have been between them, especially that early on, as other than a mentor/guide/pupil/friend. Not that he might not have been sexually attracted to her, but she would not have been particularly interested in him at that point. She was too young, and her relationship with her own father was not that good. Jack would have appeared too much like her father to her. Older, wiser, military. And the regulations meant a lot to her. She was pretty much by the book, which meant that there was no way she would have looked on him, at that point, in any other way. He would have had to be very blatant in throwing out lures to her, which he did not. So, that is my take on that pairing, besides which, she would have driven him crazy with her techno-babble, and she would have been bored out of her mind with him on any level other than a sexual one. And how did I end up here when discussing conspiracies?

So, back to that. I wouldn't say it was a 'conspiracy' as such, more of a parting of the ways over irreconcilable differences (hm...sounds like a marriage). Unfortunately, All of the fans that opposed S/J ship, which I believe, in total, was the majority, (those that wanted other ship than S/J and those that wanted no ship at all!) were the ones that suffered from his leaving the show. I don't believe it was a deliberate, planned ousting of him, by a group of the others, it is just how it worked out. I do, however, believe that the darkening of the Tok'Ra, the wiping out of the original portrayal of them, the degradation of O'Neill into an intolerant idiot, and the upping of the arrogance in the Tok'Ra, was all a very, very deliberate route taken by those left behind to guide the show, much to our detriment.

I do think Lantash was supposed to be there in Ripple Effect - they just forgot about writing anything for him. However, I am sure JR Bourne played Martouf that way because he was told to play just Martouf - and because Martouf and Lantash would have had to usually let Martouf be in control, when on Earth, I guess?

I have to disagree with that. I think it was a deliberate leaving out of Lantash, to make it appear that he gave Lantash up to be with Sam, and she still chose Jack over him. I just find it hard to believe that the writers "forgot" that Lantash was in there, too. I do agree that JR played the scene as he was told to do and yes, Martouf would have had control, while they were on Earth, however, knowing that Lantash loved Sam, which we do know from Lieutenant Elliot, I don't believe that he would not have come forward, especially when they were in the lab working with the Asgard. He would have come forward, and told her how he felt about her, since it was obvious that she loved them and missed them. Hm...plot bunny. Gah! I have three WIPs, a round robin, three different story sequels needing to be written, and I have a plot bunny? No, no, no, no, no. Not going there. Tell me that I am NOT going there!

Yes, oh yes, to JR Bourne doing a FANTASTIC job of playing those two characters as distinct personalities. He is an amazing actor, and I cannot begin to imagine how difficult it must be to do so like that - just switching back and forth between them!

I have read him say that he very much wanted to have played Martouf and Lantash many more times, and "explore the dual personalities", which apparently fascinated him. I dealt wish they would (have) let him!

Yes, he very much wanted to explore the differences and play both parts. Carmen also said the same things about Selmak, that he wished he could have explored the relationship and played both parts more. As for how difficult it would be to play the two separate entities in one body, as writers of Tok'Ra fiction, we all know how difficult it is to portray two distinct personalities in one body...and keep them separated and "in character"...on paper (or computer screen), so how very much more difficult it would be to do so as an actor. It gives you a great appreciation of those actors who have taken on roles that held multiple personalities....much as Daniel did in lifeboat. On the other hand, most actors say they relish those roles, as they force them to stretch their abilities. I can see where it certainly would do so, and have to admire them for being able to take a role, such as that, and make it Work so that we can actually believe that there are two separate and distinct entities within them.

Good grief. I think it is time for me to re-lurk. This is turning into a short story all on its own. : (

Pagan

[SamShipper]

I cannot imagine Martouf would ever give up Lantash, not even to be with Sam. That's just not how I see them - or any other Tok'ra pair for that matter. Besides, Lantash loved Sam at least as much as Martouf, so he would want to be in a relationship with her also.

There was some cut scene, where they at least mentioned Lantash. Something about Martouf and Sam discussing what had happened in her reality. He asks something like "So, I died not once, but twice?" "Yes...the second time was the symbiote. Lantash. He gave his life, allowing himself to be captured so he could release the symbiote poison. The first time was the host." (and then some more I don't remember).

That can at least sound as it's them both that's there. You...the symbiote...the host. She seems to think of them as one joined form.


I would not be surprised that they simply didn't think to write anything for both of them - they stopped writing for both host and symbiote for the Tok'ra almost all the time since early fourth season. I think they simply didn't even think to write in scenes for Lantash. He's there, but says little. Just like most hosts are there, but says little. Same thing - and just as bad, but typical for how the Tok'ra were portrayed.

I also think JR Bourne does an amazing job portraying Martouf and Lantash!


As for Sam's age, she is born 29th December 1969. It's shown on a computer screen in some episode, I think. I do agree she looks younger in the early episodes. She would have been around 27/28 in season 1.

We see Jack's id card at some point - he's born 20th October 1952. Which makes him 45 in season 1.

[Pagan Twylight]

I cannot imagine Martouf would ever give up Lantash, not even to be with Sam. That's just not how I see them - or any other Tok'ra pair for that matter. Besides, Lantash loved Sam at least as much as Martouf, so he would want to be in a relationship with her also.

I agree completely. I can't see them ever parting for anyone, either. I simply meant that at that point in the show, they were trying so very hard for the S/J, that it would be in their favor to ignore Lantash in hopes that the fans would assume that Martouf and he had parted. Knowing what their agenda was, it would make sense for them to pretend he was not there. Had they never said that they planned to wipe the original Tok'Ra and, hence Martouf/Lantash/Sam from the fans memories, it would make sense for them to pretend he was not there. I simply cannot see Lantash not coming fore to at least greet her, so their continuing in their ignoring host or symbiote in favor of only showing one, was convenient...unless we go under the premise, and I know this is not a true comment, that the writers were too incompetent to write a dual personality with any believability.

As for Sam's age, she is born 29th December 1969. It's shown on a computer screen in some episode, I think. I do agree she looks younger in the early episodes. She would have been around 27/28 in season 1.

We see Jack's id card at some point - he's born 20th October 1952. Which makes him 45 in season 1.

Well, I was close...so that puts about seventeen years between them, not an impossible span of years, but in their case, with everything else they had going against them, I can see where it would make her view him more as a mentor/friend than a possible love interest, especially that early in the relationship. But, that is how I see them and others see them differently. If we all saw things the same way, life would be very boring.

Pagan

[SF_and_Coffee]

After reading many pages of posts, I have a comment or two, er, or perhaps more, to make. Many have mentioned the change in the Tok'Ra after season four. The Tok'Ra were the child of one of the originators of SG-1, Jonathan Glassner. He left the show after the third season. At some point, after he left the show, Cooper, Wood, and others let it be known that they planned to make people forget the original Tok'Ra ever existed. They wanted Sam/Jack ship, and since Martouf/Lantash appeared after they killed him off, to have a rather good following, they began the degradation of the Tok'Ra, turning them more and more toward Goa'uld, and thus also began Jack's morphing into an intolerant, cretin.

During the first three seasons, it is not unusual to see the host. Aldwin was the host. Jacob, Martouf, Yosuuf, were all hosts, as was Freya. Note that in those first few seasons, we know the host's names, but not always, as in Aldwin's case, the symbiote's name. After Glassner left the show, a slow change began to take place that ramped up quickly after season Four. From Season Five on, the Tok'Ra were made to appear more and more arrogant, and Goa'uld-like. Just as they made clear they planned to do. It is known, that some actors who couldn't make certain episodes, had the episodes rescheduled so that they would be available. Not so for JR Bourne, when it came time to return Martouf and Lantash to the show. At this late date in time, I can't point you to the places the comments were made, or name names as to whose episodes were moved in order for them to be available. Too much time has passed, but I was active, at the time, and I remember how angry I was, when I read their comments about blackening the Tok'Ra, and how other actors episodes were juggled, so that they would be able to appear in the original script without rewriting it.

Cooper and Wood, especially, and Mallozzi, I believe though am not sure, all made comments about this and how they wanted to wipe Tok'Ra I and II out of the memories of the fans.

If one watches Tok'Ra I and II in an unbiased way, several things stand out. The Tok'Ra blend through the mouth. Sam had her mouth over Jolinar's host's mouth, in the middle of an attack. Who's going to ask? The Tok'Ra are arrogant, but nothing like the Goa'uld, and Garshaw's reaction, to our evident "disgust" of joining with a Tok'Ra, colored her view of us. I can't say I blame her. At the end of Tok'Ra II Garshaw kisses Jack O'Neill and is quite cordial to General Hammond, even as she refuses to stay and talk to him. She also tells Jack that she would be proud to call him friend, even if the council does not yet see their merit, and that it is worth working toward a closer agreement. It was very obvious that Sam and Martouf/Lantash were meant to become a pairing. The chemistry was there between the characters, and the dialog would naturally extend in that direction. There were other things, as well, but those were the ones that have always stood out to me.

I have always wondered if Glassner actually wanted to leave because he didn't want to stay passed the third season, as they (cooper, wood, et al) assured us, or if there was too much strife between the directors/writers/producers as to which way Sam's love life should go with Glassner perhaps remaining adamant that he would not go against the military regs, which the others were all for throwing them out and, in fact, did their best to do so, even to the point, or so I was told, that the military pulled their advisor for a time because they refused to okay the ship between sam/jack...as they should have. That I do not know other than as hearsay. The other things, said by cooper, wood, mallozzi, I read myself, however, as I said, so long ago now that I can't even begin to tell you where.

One last comment; As for a comment about coming to hate Jack's character...I did, as well. I loved him in the first three seasons, he was okay in the fourth, but by the fifth, I was beginning to dislike him...more and more. In fact, I suggested to Mallozzi at one point that if RDA wanted out so badly, why not just kill him off...please. Please, kill him off. He did not appreciate my solution to their dilemma. What can I say? By that point, I was heartily sick of his sarcastic, intolerant, prejudiced one liners. He had become a jerk. They killed off everyone else, so why not him? I still think it would have been the best way to stop our torture...

I said that was my last comment, but I have one more. Someone commented that Martouf didn't seem "in character" in Ripple Effect. He wasn't, because they pretended that Lantash was not there. JR did a great job of separating the two individual personalities. Without Lantash, he was not in character...at least that is the part of him that I missed. It also pissed me off that they had them breaking up. There was NO excuse for doing that anymore than than there was a reason to kill Egeria.

End of Rant, er that is, comments.

Pagan

And this is precisely why I'm spawning an AU with All That We Leave Behind. I want a much better image for the Tok'ra, and a much better future for Jack, for Sam and for the entirety of the Stargate Program.

I stopped watching SG-1 around Season 6 or early Season 7. I really only enjoyed the first three seasons or so, at least as far as thorough enjoyment goes.

I love exploring the separate personalities of host and symbiote, both in ATWLB and in Sabar's Tale, the Tok'ra story that I've spun off from ATWLB. I'm picking that back up again with a new chapter soon.

[Pagan Twylight]

And this is precisely why I'm spawning an AU with All That We Leave Behind. I want a much better image for the Tok'ra, and a much better future for Jack, for Sam and for the entirety of the Stargate Program.

I stopped watching SG-1 around Season 6 or early Season 7. I really only enjoyed the first three seasons or so, at least as far as thorough enjoyment goes.

I love exploring the separate personalities of host and symbiote, both in ATWLB and in Sabar's Tale, the Tok'ra story that I've spun off from ATWLB. I'm picking that back up again with a new chapter soon.

Being an S/M/L, Sam/Malek, or Sam/Daniel relationship writer, I, too, love to explore the separate personalities, but I like usually prefer to do it within a romantic relationship, so I rarely write gen. I consider all of my stories to be in an AU, most especially, my Tok'Ra Legacy Series, although none of them really remain within Canon, since as far as I'm concerned, after season three, Canon sucked big time. I did watch fairly closely up through season six, I think, but I missed most of the season where they really pushed the S/J ship, and the seasons after that, I spent a great deal of time in another room, since I refused to remain and watch any scene that had both Jack and Sam in it together. By then, my dislike of Jack O'Neill's character was full-blown and out of control. I couldn't stand him any longer and when, to top it off, they took Sam's command, and gave it to Mitchell, well, that topped it off, and adding Vala (whose character, as well as Mitchell's, I liked) and placing her with Daniel it overflowed and was the last straw for me. By then, I think I almost hated the show, as much as I had loved it in the beginning.

My other pet peeve was their killing spree. Kawalski, Sha'uri, Martouf, Lantash, Aldwin, numerous other Tok'Ra, Janet, the people of Abydos, Cromwell, (we assumed), Selmak, Jacob, Orlin (who they might as well have killed), Oma (also gotten out of the way), Makepiece (traitor, I think?), Narim, Rothman, EGERIA, and then the ASGARD! The ASGARD for Goddess's sake. I loved Thor. I was so shocked, and disappointed. And, they also turned the Furling into a joke (which upset me at the time), but looking back, I am very glad they did, since it allowed me to build them, and a world, around them, and place my SG-1 and SGC within that Alternate Universe. I really should thank them for that, the only thing they did correctly, as far as I am concerned. Why, I ask you, after killing everyone else of importance to the fans, did they leave Kinsey, Jack, Hammond, and Pete, (who was pretty much disliked from the get-go, as was Kinsey), alive? Why not just make it a wholesale slaughter and kill them, kill them ALL! (evil laughter is heard here).

At any rate, like you, I wanted my AU to be different for the Tok'Ra and the SGC. I try to write it, as I feel the show would have been better off doing, rather than the route it took. And, as I mentioned, I love writing the two distinct personalities within one person. It is endlessly fascinating, and I can see in my own stories, how I have had them evolve over time, and I still like them...much more than I ever liked the show's Tok'Ra, but then, they didn't want us to like the Tok'Ra, but to lump them in with the Goa'uld, and unfortunately, most of the viewers simply followed their lead and didn't look beyond it, conveniently forgetting that the original Tok'Ra were much more pleasant and likable. Unless, that is, a person finds the idea of aliens and humans together icky, which I know some people do. I'm not sure what that makes them, alienphobic? lol. But then, I always loved Spock, too. It was the pointed ears, I think. So very like elves. (Yes, the last movie I watched was LOTR, so that dates my movie and TV consumption. Stargate is the last TV show I've watched as well.

Best wishes for your stories. I know you write well, and am glad that you are continuing with the Tok'Ra. I hope that I can start writing again soon, too. There are so few of us left still writing about them, and it is such a shame, since they are so very fascinating. Ah, well...

Pagan