Tok'ra Thunk/Discussion/Appreciation thread

[Sparky She-Demon]

Also, if one parent is a host, do they still get the genetic memory?

[Skadi]

Authors tend to disagree on whether the kid of one blended being gets genetic memory, or if both must be blended. I think both must be blended for the word harcesis to apply? But whether one or two must be hosts depend on whether we think genetic memory is a recessive trait or a dominating one.

[Sparky She-Demon]

Authors tend to disagree on whether the kid of one blended being gets genetic memory, or if both must be blended. I think both must be blended for the word harcesis to apply? But whether one or two must be hosts depend on whether we think genetic memory is a recessive trait or a dominating one.

Sort of like the Ancient Gene?

I apologize for asking all these questions. I'm a relative newcomer.

[Skadi]

Also, if one parent is a host, do they still get the genetic memory?

Unknown - as I said above, it depends on whether genetic memory is a recessive or dominant trait. You can choose what suits your story.

[Sparky She-Demon]

Unknown - as I said above, it depends on whether genetic memory is a recessive or dominant trait. You can choose what suits your story.

In my possible story, I might be making it dominant.

[Skadi]

I forgot this one, it's a long one. First part is finished, second part is not.

Following the Sorcerer
http://zarah.orconhosting.net.nz/stargate/index2.html
Kid is Rosha/Jolinar and Martouf/Lantash's. Fic is Sam/Martouf/Lantash.

[Sparky She-Demon]

Thanks for the fics!

I'm going to warn you the mother of the harcesis child is going to be an OC. Not Sam.

[Skadi]

Thanks for the fics!

I'm going to warn you the mother of the harcesis child is going to be an OC. Not Sam.

Well, I'll probably read it anyway

[Sparky She-Demon]

She's still going to be USAF. Her and Sam get captured by a Goa'uld and he can sense that she's pregnant with a child that will have the genetic memory of the Tok'ra.

[SF_and_Coffee]

You guys do know that recessive and dominant refer to things that are single-gene traits, right? I don't think genetic memory in hosts and former hosts is a recessive or dominant thing at all, because I doubt it's a matter of there being a single gene inserted by the symbiote into its host. I mean, what would be the point in that?

I think it's more like a gestalt thing, something that occurs as the result of a whole bunch of genes or pseudo-genes carried by the host or former host.

I'll offer here my own treatment of it, from a fic I began writing but then shelved, that involves a former host and a non-host who are married and discussing whether or not to have a child. The former host consults another Tok'ra symbiote regarding the advisability of having a child with his wife, and brings up the question of genetic memory. Note that this is in regard to a former host, not a current one:

Spoiler:

We open with Matt, the former host, speaking. Material enclosed in {} indicates symbiote speech.

“So, here’s my question. I know you told me why Tok’ra pairs don’t have children, because the child would carry the Goa’uld and Tok’ra genetic memories, despite being human, and that would be harmful to a human child’s mental and emotional development. I mean, I carry an awful lot of old symbiote memories and even some from Relak's former hosts, but I didn’t take them on until I was an adult, so I could cope with them.” He shrugged. “But I can see it being a problem for a child, certainly.”

{“It would likely be overwhelming,”} agreed Tanek, his Tok'ra friend. {“But what’s your question?”}

“Well, I remember Relak telling me, when we were blended, that having a symbiote can affect male gametes genetically, and that’s why the genetic memory would be passed on from a host father. Human males continually produce new gametes, so I’m assuming that the change is somewhere in the cells that produce them?”

{“Yes. There's a genetic marker we place in our host’s DNA that causes your bodies to recognize our bodies as being part of your own physical structure, so we don’t have to continually fight off rejection attempts by your immune system. We can do that, and it’s what we do in the beginning, before that marker takes hold in your system. It acts almost as a virus, but most of your cells eventually weed it out over a number of divisions, so we have to keep replenishing it. There are some tissues that are exceptions, and that includes female gametes. Once the viroid has made genetic changes to a female human’s oocytes, the cells that lead to egg production, that change is more or less permanent. It’s different in men, because your gametes form differently, and continue throughout your lifetime. But in any case, if a male and female host were to mate, each of them would contribute genetic material from their symbiotes; it’s pretty much unavoidable. And since those symbiote genes in each gamete, male and female, would find their corresponding component in the other, the full set would produce a memory imprint in the resulting infant.”}

Matt nodded. He’d studied enough basic biology to understand the mechanism they were discussing. But it still left him with questions. “All right, but what about someone who’s a host mating with someone who isn’t one and has never been one? Would their offspring get a partial imprint, or what?”

Tanek chuckled. {“No, because it takes two corresponding sets of marker genes from the symbiote to do that. If only one parent has symbiote genetic material, then that material doesn’t find anything to bond with in the corresponding gamete. The viroid basically inserts meaningful code into spaces where your cells have random DNA sequences — and your species in particular seems to have a lot of those, which is part of why you’ve been so easy to work with as hosts — but in a case like you’re describing, it wouldn’t find meaningful code in those same spaces in the other gamete, so it wouldn’t actually be expressed. The symbiote genes would remain dormant or be rendered inert in the resulting child, who would be a perfectly normal human in every way.”}

That was a relief. "I wanted to make sure there was no genetic or medical reason why I shouldn’t be trying to have a kid now. I mean, it's been so long since Relak and I... " Matt paused in silent reflection over his absent friend, before continuing, "So you're saying it'd be okay? No chance of any lingering problem?”

Tanek nodded. {“No, there’s none. There wouldn't be even if you were still a host, given that Teresa isn't. But on top of that, you've been solo again long enough now that you probably don’t even have much of Relak's genetic material in your reproductive cells anymore. The faster a host’s cells divide and reproduce, the faster the symbiote genes are randomized back into the inert DNA we’ve inserted them in, and male gametes tend to do this pretty quickly. Go ahead and have a child with your wife, if that's what you want to do.”}

[Sparky She-Demon]

Thanks. I guess I need to rethink how I'm going to work the story.

[SF_and_Coffee]

Well, mind you that my complicated explanation belongs to my story-verse, so you don't have to adopt it as canon to yours.

[Hathor_girl]

Well, mind you that my complicated explanation belongs to my story-verse, so you don't have to adopt it as canon to yours.

I've discussed genetic memory with Roeskva (and several of us have discussed it on the tokra-resistance list... a fairly long time ago, I think). We mostly agreed with you - and I don't think anyone thinks it is one gene. What I think Skadi meant (I've discussed it with her too, I think) is that the symbiote adds a bunch of genes to the gametes, but that whether or not the genetic memory is expressed, could be a matter of whether such genes would be dominant or recessive - or if one or a few genes controls expression of it, once it's present. If you understand what I mean

Of course, even if it is not expressed, the genes are there, and if the kid meets another such person in the future, or has kids with a host, the genetic memory could be expressed.

I agree with the changes being temporary on the semen, and I can see the explanation for it being permanent on the female. I like that idea. I think Roeskva assumes it is a change that happens to the eggs at the time they mature/ripen (or whatever you call it in English - when an egg is getting prepared to be ovulated). So it is also temporary in the females in her explanation. But I think I like yours better - mostly because it works for a story I am writing on

The reason for having lots of genes transferred and not just for genetic memory is mostly to explain Shifu - he looks nothing like Sha're or her family, and nothing like Apophis's host. So... guessing he's got some genes from Amaunet and Apophis, that expressed themselves that way in a human... as funky as that sounds

The idea of a parasitic/symbiotic lifeform making changes to their hosts gametes in this way is actually not quite as far-fetched an idea as one might think. At least in lower lifeforms like bacteria, it is quite common to swap DNA, and in higher lifeforms as well... we do have DNA in our genetic makeup that comes from other species, including some that are believed to have been parasites of our ancestors, DNA which were absorbed into ours.

It could even make a kind of sense (biologically) for the symbiotes of Stargate to insert their DNA in the gametes of their hosts. Since only the queens breed, this would be a way for ordinary symbiotes to procreate - in a way.

[Sparky She-Demon]

Well, mind you that my complicated explanation belongs to my story-verse, so you don't have to adopt it as canon to yours.

Fair enough. But I'm still going to have to rethink how I'm going to work my story out.

[Hathor_girl]

Round One of tokra_kree has completed. Just saw they had posted a masterlist. Here are the fics that were written (there were no artwork):

Title: Unexpected Developments
Author: hathor_girl
Pairings: Sam/Martouf/Lantash
Rating/Warnings: PG-13, Talk of character death
Summary: Sam finds something aboard an ha'tak, which changes her life.
Relevant episode: "S04xE22 Exodus I"/"S05xE01 Enemies II"

AO3 | Symbiotica | DW | LJ


Title: Alternate Lines of Duty
Author: ltkatia
Pairings: None
Rating/Warnings: PG-13, Minor violence
Summary: Sam finds herself with a more long-term 'guest' than what she had expected.
Relevant episode: "S02xE02 In the Line of Duty".

Symbiotica | DW | LJ | AO3


Title: Good Fortunes
Author: roeskva
Pairings: Sam/Jolinar/Martouf/Lantash
Rating/Warnings: PG-13, None
Summary: An alien healing device with unknown properties activates and affects Sam just before they escape Netu. The result was something no one could have expected.
Relevant episode: "S03xE13 The Devil You Know".

Symbiotica | AO3 | DW | LJ


Title: A Promise of Better Times to Come
Author: hathor_girl
Pairings: Mention of Sam/Pete, mention of Jack/Kerry, Sam/Martouf/Lantash
Rating/Warnings: PG-13, None
Summary: Sam is devastated - her dad is dying, she is breaking up with Pete, and she just found out Jack is dating Kerry. She returns to the SGC, to the surprise of a lifetime, and suddenly nothing is as bad as she thought it was.
Relevant episode: "S08xE18 AU version of Threads".

AO3 | Symbiotica | DW | LJ


Title: A Different Road Taken
Author: roeskva
Pairings: None
Rating/Warnings: PG-13, Minor violence, minor character deaths
Summary: Freya/Anise arrive at Stargate Command, asking for help with a danger that is threatening both the Tok'ra and the Tau'ri.
Relevant episode: "S04xE04 Crossroads", "S04xE05 Divide and Conquer".

AO3 | Symbiotica | DW | LJ