Daniel Jackson Discussion and Appreciation

[nyxlily]

Spoiler:

Maybe he won't even realize that he has crossed the line until it is all said and done.

I think it would be exciting/angsty to watch him be in a situation where he believes he may have to compromise everything he believes in order to save everyone. To have Daniel really fall and not being able to just my his own strength of will to recover but to truly need the help of his friends. To see him have a real moral crisis and that he has to, in relationship to this battle with the Ori, re-evaluate his whole life and what he believes in. That would be an awesome story arc for Daniel. That is what I would like to see.

You know what, you just described a perfect Daniel angst episode for me. How I would -love- to see him do what he believes needs to be done and have the moral ramification he just could not deal with alone. I would love to see how the team will support him in this case.

Did we ever get to see where Daniel questioned his actions and the team was needed to back him up? I honestly can't remember.. there's been so many episodes and they all tend to blur together over time and I haven't watched them in a while..

[Dani347]

In an interview with MS for the recent issue of the SG magazine, he said that Daniel felt

Spoiler:

responsible for the Ori's invasion. I mean, the Ori were basically made aware of the Milkyway through Daniel. If they weren't fiddling with the Ancient communication device, they wouldn't be in this mess. And it was from HIM that the Ori gleamed the info on us. From what I recall of the interview anyway, I just scanned through it at the store. Anyway, my point is: Daniel feels responsible for the Ori's presence.. and it might be affecting him on how much he is willing to sacrifice (to himself? Others?) to stop the invasion. More than the innocent slaughters, his guilt might be the main driving force behind finding a way to stop them. His new mission in life?

Vague season 9 plot in spoilers.

Spoiler:

That was something he said in one of the early episodes to Vala. Although he said that the Ori knew about Earth because of "us." So, I don't know if he feels singlehandedly responsible, but he certainly feels that he shares a huge part of it.

[Miyth]

I can definetely see Daniel blaming himself, that seems to be his way (actually it's a lot of characters' way). I think it would be wonderful to get in a really juicy angst episode for Daniel. If you think about it, it's been a while. Of course, after the events in

Spoiler:

Shrouds

we'll have our angst fix by the truck loads, hopefuly.

[LoopyMowse]

I will worry for Daniel until the episode has aired and I can find out how he copes!
He always seems to have a tough time it's his unique way of getting through a situation that makes his character so appealing for me
Daniel acts and reacts in different way to the military minds around him
I know the storyline for s10 is very interesting but I wouldn't mind a stand alone ep too, I liked seeing Daniel excavate and explore as much as I enjoyed watching him encounter people in tricky cicumstances and have to escape them somehow!

[Miyth]

Totally and completely ditto that

[JessM]

In an interview with MS for the recent issue of the SG magazine, he said that Daniel felt

Spoiler:

responsible for the Ori's invasion. I mean, the Ori were basically made aware of the Milkyway through Daniel. If they weren't fiddling with the Ancient communication device, they wouldn't be in this mess. And it was from HIM that the Ori gleamed the info on us. From what I recall of the interview anyway, I just scanned through it at the store. Anyway, my point is: Daniel feels responsible for the Ori's presence.. and it might be affecting him on how much he is willing to sacrifice (to himself? Others?) to stop the invasion. More than the innocent slaughters, his guilt might be the main driving force behind finding a way to stop them. His new mission in life?

Vague season 9 plot in spoilers.

That is a very good point actually, so I guess I could understand

Spoiler:

his actions if he blames himself for the Ori invasion. It does seem to make sense. I guess I wasn't quite expecting him to say what he did to Sam when she said he couldn't have shot a child - maybe something like "I know she might appear to be a child on the outside, Sam, but she is Ori through and through, and we should have stopped her." or something along those lines. I guess this is pretty much off-topic, but I also think that Vala shares some of the blame for their presence... or she should, anyway (in my very humble opinion).

[Rachel500]

Hi to all as this is my first post on this thread...

I'm been loving the discussion about Daniel's morality, guilt and what that could mean in terms of character development for him that stemmed from the episode Flesh and Blood. My thoughts are below in spoilers just in case...

Spoiler:

One of the things that I've always loved about Daniel's character is his ability to look beyond the surface and try to see the good in people, Unas, robots, dead civilisations that the team have come across; that ability to be the voice of conscience, to try and understand something rather than just shoot it. The only exception to this in the early years was the Goa'uld who Daniel felt were intrinsically evil in nature; that there was no redeeming quality. For me that was the continuity in S9's Prototype when for some Daniel's behaviour in arguing to kill Khalek while they had the chance, might have seemed out of character.

I tend to think Daniel has come to the same conclusion on the Ori; they are intrinisically evil with no hope of redemption. Had the Orici inhabited the body of a grown woman instead of a child I have no problems imagining that he would shoot her just like he did Khalek. I haven't seen the epi F&B living in the UK, but from the spoilers I've read Daniel's conclusion on Adria is that; she's evil but despite that perhaps the image of innocence projected by her human child form and Vala's insistence that they can sway her do momentarily cause him to doubt that.

Daniel's character has developed though and he's much more cynical and world-weary then he was when he started out. He doesn't have the same innocent expectations about people that he used to have and he's much more battle-hardened. For me, he seems much more willing to accept the military mindset of 'let's shoot it' that when he started out he would have argued passionately against.

On the guilt aspect, I do think Daniel feels an enormous sense of guilt for alerting the Ori to the galaxy in the same way as we learn in Meridian, he always felt responsible for what happened to his wife because it was him who unburied the gate on Abydos. I would expect guilt over the Ori to be a primary driver in the character's motivations. Is he more inclined to the military mindset because of his guilt? That's an interesting question.

I too would love a Daniel story that provides him with the opportunity to look do a bit of self-examination and see how he has changed and to question whether that's a good thing; to question his motivations behind his choices, perhaps in amongst having to make a decision about where he does draw the line these days from a morality point of view. Maybe the epi 'The Shroud' will deliver it...either way it looks like S10 is shaping up to give Daniel some angst. I can't wait to see it.

[Pitry]

Ummm... yay! A spoiler box! Flesh and Blood.

Spoiler:

Vala told Daniel - specifically - that Adria isn't like the Prior. She's not a pawn. She knows what she's doing and she's fine with it. You can see it also in his reaction/ description of her - she's technically human. She's not an Orii possessing a human body, or some such. She jsut has their knowledge. And yet, he says she's an Orii - which she isn't. I do agree with the people saying he sees the good in people and will always try and appeal to that good - and we've seen a lot of it, last year as well - TPTB, Ethon, etc. But - again, as already mentioned - just like Khalek, just like the Goa'uld - when did he ever argue for keeping a Goa'uld alive?! - he doesn't see any good in Adria. She's pure and total evil, for him, bent on destroying the galaxy, and is going to do so unless she's stopped. And they're all pretty depressed after Flesh and Blood, obviously, and that is, I think, the land of what if's - What if I'd killed her and we would have had a chance. What if we don't have a chance because I didn't kill her? etc.

As for his guilt - yes, that might play into it a bit as well. I'd really like to see that one more explored.

[Frostfox]

Hi to all as this is my first post on this thread...

I'm been loving the discussion about Daniel's morality, guilt and what that could mean in terms of character development for him that stemmed from the episode Flesh and Blood. My thoughts are below in spoilers just in case...

Spoiler:

I too would love a Daniel story that provides him with the opportunity to look do a bit of self-examination and see how he has changed and to question whether that's a good thing; to question his motivations behind his choices, perhaps in amongst having to make a decision about where he does draw the line these days from a morality point of view. Maybe the epi 'The Shroud' will deliver it...either way it looks like S10 is shaping up to give Daniel some angst. I can't wait to see it.

And if the show won't do it, that's what fanfic is for! It often fills in the blanks better than the show when it comes to the emotional fallout from episodes.

FF

[Dani347]

Hi, Rachel!

F&B, a little Ethon and Prototype

Spoiler:

Good point about how Daniel has never argued for seeing the good in a Goa'uld, or even for trying to teach them good. So, for me, the idea of him seeing someone and seeing no good in them and feeling that they needed to die isn't some change in his character.

Someone on another board mentioned something interesting. Daniel has had the opportunity to see evil up close. He went to battle with Anubis in Full Circle, before Oma pulled him out. And, he was one on one with Khalek, with Khalek telling him personally that one of them would feel the joy of killing the other. Plus, he was also shown that he could personally become evil in his dream in Absolute Power. In that dream, it seemed the only solution to stopping him was shooting him, and I think that was shoot to kill. And, in the dream, Jack doing that, came too late. It had to be done early, to save everyone. Also, the Replicarter.

Now, I don't think Adria can be considered a normal child who happens to have the Ori knowledge. To me, she might have a human form, but like Khalek, she's imprinted with the Ori knowledge woven into her genetic code. Brad Wright referred to the Harsesis in an interview when he spoke of her. So, I'm guessing that this is similiar to the Goa'uld knowledge. It makes you evil. And, she's not just holding it, she's made of it. But, even if there was some way of fixing her, I think the only ones able would be an Ancient, to do what Oma did to Shifu -and then, could it be done with knowledge from beings like themselves? It would be more potent than Goa'uld knowledge. Plus, Adria has already accessed it. That could be another obstacle. And, the biggest, there's no Ancient available who would be willing to interfere with a human. Now, what if there were some way to save her without sacrificing the galaxy, and Daniel missed it? I don't think there's any way he could know, and because of his experiences, even back in the early, most optimistic seasons, not shocking that he wouldn't consider it. So, I don't think it's something he should know. But, if it happened that later he found out, I could imagine him personally feeling that his experiences with coming up close and personal with evil has tainted him, and made him more likely to see evil than good. That could be guilt. And, it would be nice if someone could mention that he still felt that the people on Jared's planet could be reasoned with, seeing the good in them. Maybe telling him that it's not because he just wants to kill, but because of his experiences he is more willing to see the evil in disguise, just as he's also more willing to see the good, even when evidence points otherwise - like Jared's people. That clarity of sight isn't perfect, but it's there.

I don't think Daniel has been shown feeling guilt for anything on a solo basis. Well, actually, I think his farewell to the Abydonians in CoTG might count. I think him saying nothing good could come through the gate, he meant himself.
I don't think he was considering the Stargate program, but was thinking of himself alone. Icon and Avalon spoilers

Spoiler:

He felt responsible enough to go back, but like his conversation with Vala about the Ori knowing about Earth, he felt it was a group responsibility. In Icon, they chose to visit the planet and get everything started. So, he wasn't flogging himself saying what a bad bad man he was, he was saying that they had a responsibility because of their actions, and he wanted to rectify the situation. With the Ori, I think there was more guilt there, and I think he feels a bigger personal share, because he was so eager to use the device and also so sure that it was only a communications device, but I think he also knows that he was acting under the permission of Landry, that the others were fully aware and willing for him to test it (I think Mitchell would have gone if Vala hadn't jumped in). Daniel and Vala may have been there, but everyone involved with getting the device and advocating its use had a share in helping the Ori find out about them.

Scourge spoilers

Spoiler:

Now, I still can't imagine he'll ever willingly become a prior. And, by willingly, he has to be in sound mind. If he's brainwashed he could chose without really being capable of choosing. Afterwards, he'll feel guilt (or he should feel guilt, if they do it right) but will that be the same as him feeling guilt for an action that happened when he was in his right mind? I think he would feel guilty if he became a host to a Goa'uld, but any actions taken in that time couldn't be his fault. If he's coerced into being a prior, if he had no choice, than that couldn't be his fault either. Would the pay off of seeing him guilty and angsty be the same?

[Rachel500]

And if the show won't do it, that's what fanfic is for! It often fills in the blanks better than the show when it comes to the emotional fallout from episodes.

FF

I couldn't agree with you more. I may even get round to writing the idea one day!

[Rachel500]

Hi, Rachel!

<snipped for space>


I don't think Daniel has been shown feeling guilt for anything on a solo basis. Well, actually, I think his farewell to the Abydonians in CoTG might count. I think him saying nothing good could come through the gate, he meant himself. I don't think he was considering the Stargate program, but was thinking of himself alone.

Me too. It's backed up in Meridian when he talks to Oma about his life.

Icon and Avalon spoilers

Spoiler:

He felt responsible enough to go back, but like his conversation with Vala about the Ori knowing about Earth, he felt it was a group responsibility. In Icon, they chose to visit the planet and get everything started. So, he wasn't flogging himself saying what a bad bad man he was, he was saying that they had a responsibility because of their actions, and he wanted to rectify the situation. With the Ori, I think there was more guilt there, and I think he feels a bigger personal share, because he was so eager to use the device and also so sure that it was only a communications device, but I think he also knows that he was acting under the permission of Landry, that the others were fully aware and willing for him to test it (I think Mitchell would have gone if Vala hadn't jumped in). Daniel and Vala may have been there, but everyone involved with getting the device and advocating its use had a share in helping the Ori find out about them.

My view is that even in a situation where there is a collective responsibility, that a person can still feel tremendous personal guilt over what happens so...

Spoiler:

Icon, I agree Daniel acted because of the collective responsibility that the SG programme had in regards to the chain of events that happened; similar to that collective responsibility felt by the team in epis like Thor's Chariot, Red Sky and the one with the aliens and the plants whose name escapes me for the moment.

With the Ori I think its actually different. Although there is a collective responsibility and Daniel was given effectively permission by his chain of command, Daniel does say to Vala in Origin that its 'our' fault and I interpret that as him saying it is his and Vala's fault not the whole team because of how they attract attention as non-believers - if they had blended in better they may not have attracted attention maybe - not to mention the Ori thank him personally for letting them know everything they need to know. So I do think that if I was comforting Daniel I might tell him to take solace in the collective responsibility, I don't think that would negate the personal guilt he might feel.

Scourge spoilers

Spoiler:

Now, I still can't imagine he'll ever willingly become a prior. And, by willingly, he has to be in sound mind. If he's brainwashed he could chose without really being capable of choosing. Afterwards, he'll feel guilt (or he should feel guilt, if they do it right) but will that be the same as him feeling guilt for an action that happened when he was in his right mind? I think he would feel guilty if he became a host to a Goa'uld, but any actions taken in that time couldn't be his fault. If he's coerced into being a prior, if he had no choice, than that couldn't be his fault either. Would the pay off of seeing him guilty and angsty be the same?

Hmmm. Interesting question. My thoughts...

Spoiler:

Possibly if he acts when 'possessed' then there is guilt but he can comfort himself with knowing he wouldn't have acted that way normally. However if you cross over your own moral boundaries without being possessed, drugged or under the influence of an alien virus then the guilt and self-questioning must be greater.

[Dani347]

My view is that even in a situation where there is a collective responsibility, that a person can still feel tremendous personal guilt over what happens so...

Spoiler:

With the Ori I think its actually different. Although there is a collective responsibility and Daniel was given effectively permission by his chain of command, Daniel does say to Vala in Origin that its 'our' fault and I interpret that as him saying it is his and Vala's fault not the whole team because of how they attract attention as non-believers - if they had blended in better they may not have attracted attention maybe - not to mention the Ori thank him personally for letting them know everything they need to know. So I do think that if I was comforting Daniel I might tell him to take solace in the collective responsibility, I don't think that would negate the personal guilt he might feel.

Spoiler:

I think you're right. It was also shown in his demeanor when he was talking to Vala. Different than him pitching a return to the planet to Jack in Icon. And, good point that the Ori seemed to know a lot about him. Maybe through his time as an ascended being? Once he and Vala got into the Ori galaxy, his very existence could have given them more information. And, the prior who was talking to Mitchell when he and the other soldiers visited the planet (sorry, my memory of episode titles and specific planets sucks) also singled out Daniel.

Hmmm. Interesting question. My thoughts...

Spoiler:

Possibly if he acts when 'possessed' then there is guilt but he can comfort himself with knowing he wouldn't have acted that way normally. However if you cross over your own moral boundaries without being possessed, drugged or under the influence of an alien virus then the guilt and self-questioning must be greater.

Spoiler:

True. I'm really wondering for the audience who wants a good angsty episode, and feel that working through guilt would be a good storyline, would you feel cheated or that it's less compelling if it's guilt for something that couldn't be helped, rather than guilt for some action he did on his own? Guilt for a personal failure that he has to work through?

[Rachel500]

True. I'm really wondering for the audience who wants a good angsty episode, and feel that working through guilt would be a good storyline, would you feel cheated or that it's less compelling if it's guilt for something that couldn't be helped, rather than guilt for some action he did on his own? Guilt for a personal failure that he has to work through?

I've kind of taken it out of spoilers as I think we're talking more vaguely now.

For me, I would think the more compelling story is the one that means the character has to examine their own motives and reasons for doing the questionable action with a real edge of guilt because they made a conscious choice. Doing the action under the influence of something gives the character a 'get out of jail' free card which lessen the dramatic angst.

[LoopyMowse]

I have read some really good fic delving into Daniel's thoughts feelings about events (missions) but sometimes I would like to see a bit more ON screen of repercussions
we can all assume Daniel suffers self doubt guilt trips after missions when he felt things didn't go well and blamed himself for how they turned out (despite it's often the case that the situation couldn't have been resloved by one man alone no matter how good his intentions) I don't mean we should have full 41 minutes of a character going through emotional angst on screen It wouldn't be an episode for everyone to watch then
But just a bit more shown on screen would be good because there have been occasions when nothing has been shown at all but we know it CAN be written and acted on screen very well (I appreciated the store room scene in Need Both actors gave a wonderful performance)
I'll look for fic when the s10 episodes have aired that will need some resolution for Daniel from them because of the circumstances in them I know some fic writers have produced some really great Daniel stories that I read again and again still enjoy them after repeated readings