Daniel Jackson Discussion and Appreciation

[Dana_Jeanne]

I'd be happy for him to get a romantic partner on one condition: we never see her. Sam and he could have a conversation here and there...
"So how was your evening with Frieda?" "Movie awful, dinner good, both far more expensive than the last time I dated anyone.... What word from SG-7?"

It would take ten seconds out of the 42m, and no one would have to be annoyed by the unsuitability of her, or by the soap opera -ness of it all.

Oh yes, I have to agree with that 100%-- it doesn't matter to me if everyone had SO's as long as they were off screen 99% of the time. I still don't know that I'd want Daniel to have one, but if he did-- keep her off screen PLEASE!
Dana Jeanne

[Dana_Jeanne]

I was thinking last night about the differences between 'early' Daniel, S4-5 Daniel and descended Daniel. It seems to me that there were two major changes in him.

Seasons 1-3/FIAD: He was the the young, bouncy, excitable archeaologist/linguist. Then Sha're is killed.

FIAD-S5/Meridian: He's slowly growing more into himself and away from his team. He's just as vocal about things being done the 'humane' way, but he pushes harder and louder when he comes up against the brick wall that's Jack and the Military (The Other Side). As the seasons continue, he grows more and more discouraged until finally he sees Ascension as a way to actually make a difference.

Ascension: While we still don't know too much about what happened there, we can extrapolate from the things we've heard him say in Season 6, 7 and 8, and assume that The Others created an even thicker brick wall than the Militry did.

Descended Daniel: While he still has that original 'humanity' about him and he still wants to 'ask first, shoot later' he doesn't seem to push as hard-- I'm thinking that if The Other Side were to happen NOW, they might have thier heavy water and we'd have some awesome weapons. He realises now that, while the military way may not always be the RIGHT way, sometimes it's unfortunately the ONLY way, and he seems to have become resigned to that.

What do you all think?

Deej

[Seshat]

I was thinking last night about the differences between 'early' Daniel, S4-5 Daniel and descended Daniel. It seems to me that there were two major changes in him.

Seasons 1-3/FIAD: He was the the young, bouncy, excitable archeaologist/linguist. Then Sha're is killed.

FIAD-S5/Meridian: He's slowly growing more into himself and away from his team. He's just as vocal about things being done the 'humane' way, but he pushes harder and louder when he comes up against the brick wall that's Jack and the Military (The Other Side). As the seasons continue, he grows more and more discouraged until finally he sees Ascension as a way to actually make a difference.

Ascension: While we still don't know too much about what happened there, we can extrapolate from the things we've heard him say in Season 6, 7 and 8, and assume that The Others created an even thicker brick wall than the Militry did.

Descended Daniel: While he still has that original 'humanity' about him and he still wants to 'ask first, shoot later' he doesn't seem to push as hard-- I'm thinking that if The Other Side were to happen NOW, they might have thier heavy water and we'd have some awesome weapons. He realises now that, while the military way may not always be the RIGHT way, sometimes it's unfortunately the ONLY way, and he seems to have become resigned to that.

What do you all think?

Deej

I am very much in agreement with you DJ, I felt there were distinct phases to Daniel's character throughout the seasons as well. I'd say your descriptions of the differences were a pretty fair assessment of his development over the years.

This somewhat 'resigned Daniel' is the one I think I have the most trouble accepting as the new norm. Which is why I'd like to see the new challenges coming up for him in Season 9.

However, I must add that as long as there IS a Daniel, ANY kind of Daniel, I'd watch regardless.

[Dana_Jeanne]

This somewhat 'resigned Daniel' is the one I think I have the most trouble accepting as the new norm. Which is why I'd like to see the new challenges coming up for him in Season 9.

Yes, I'm not happy with the S7-8 Daniel. I still love him-- heavens you don't generally stop loving someone when they change a little --but I'm having trouble LIKING him. Does that make sense? He's become a little too pro-active/military for me. And I'm also eagerly waiting to see what S9 brings--changes for the better I hope!

However, I must add that as long as there IS a Daniel, ANY kind of Daniel, I'd watch regardless.

Oh, well, YEAH! That goes without saying. Daniel is Daniel, and if he changes along the way, well, he's still DANIEL.
Deej

[Frostfox]

Yes, I'm not happy with the S7-8 Daniel. I still love him-- heavens you don't generally stop loving someone when they change a little --but I'm having trouble LIKING him. Does that make sense? He's become a little too pro-active/military for me. And I'm also eagerly waiting to see what S9 brings--changes for the better I hope!
Deej

Absolutely valid criticism, DeeJ but given what he's been through, it's an understandable track for the character to take.
Might not be the on I'd have chosen for him - might not be the one Daniel would have chosen either, but it's a realistic one.

He is still recognisably Daniel though, 95% of the time.

[Seshat]

Yes, I'm not happy with the S7-8 Daniel. I still love him-- heavens you don't generally stop loving someone when they change a little --but I'm having trouble LIKING him. Does that make sense? He's become a little too pro-active/military for me. And I'm also eagerly waiting to see what S9 brings--changes for the better I hope!

I'd like to see our boy face a few new roadblocks that he couldn't overcome, and dealing with them. You know, a few, "Red Sky (if the original ending had been left alone and they couldn't save the planet)" problems. Dealing with the consequences of hard choices that don't have easy answers. Much as I love SG1, I'm a little tired of the "we always save the day, get the bad guy" endings. I'd like to see a new show or two more like your choice of The Other Side.

Oh, and I'd also like to see a few "let's blow up everything with really big explosions" shows. But I take that as a given for one or two eps. So shoot me, I'm diverse in my tastes.

[Frostfox]

I'd like to see our boy face a few new roadblocks that he couldn't overcome, and dealing with them. You know, a few, "Red Sky (if the original ending had been left alone and they couldn't save the planet)" problems. Dealing with the consequences of hard choices that don't have easy answers. Much as I love SG1, I'm a little tired of the "we always save the day, get the bad guy" endings. I'd like to see a new show or two more like your choice of The Other Side.

I just finished watching disc 39 with Icon on it.
Apart from the purely shallow reasons for enjoying it, I thought it a good episode because of the ambiguity. The religious zealot was one dimensional but all the other characters were interestingly ambiguious and the political situation realisticly complicated. Reminded me of a DS9 episode (that's my idea of high praise) as I could easily see Sisko getting into the same sort of political pickle and Daniel was by far and away the best character to have been thrown into such a mess.

Foxy, going in the bath thinking of such episodes as In The Pale Moonlight or Hippocratic Oath with the SG1 teams caught in the middle - I can just see Jack and Daniel having the same argument as O'Brien and Bashir over the ethics of helping a sick enemy as in Hippocratic Oath.

[Seshat]

I just finished watching disc 39 with Icon on it.
Apart from the purely shallow reasons for enjoying it, I thought it a good episode because of the ambiguity. The religious zealot was one dimensional but all the other characters were interestingly ambiguious and the political situation realisticly complicated. Reminded me of a DS9 episode (that's my idea of high praise) as I could easily see Sisko getting into the same sort of political pickle and Daniel was by far and away the best character to have been thrown into such a mess.

Foxy, going in the bath thinking of such episodes as In The Pale Moonlight or Hippocratic Oath with the SG1 teams caught in the middle - I can just see Jack and Daniel having the same argument as O'Brien and Bashir over the ethics of helping a sick enemy as in Hippocratic Oath.

Ach! I had forgotten about Icon! Good points, Foxy. All I can remember about that ep is that I most sympathized with the woman's husband's plight, which I wasn't sure was what the writers intended....ambiguity, indeed.

I was thrown off by the style and pacing in Icon and therefore have only watched it once, when it first ran. But I might still have it on tape, and your post makes me wanna go watch it again.

[SueS]

I'd like Daniel to have someone in his life. It would never be a love like he had with Sha're, but just because his wife died doesn't mean that he shouldn't get another chance for happiness.

It's been years since Sha're's death, but it doesn't mean that he still doesn't love her. Maybe he's a bit reluctant to try and find someone and with his track record, who could blame him.

Of course having the characters have personal relationships could turn the show into "As the Stargate Turns" and I know many fans wouldn't like that. Also, any people they get involved with outside of the SGC, couldn't know the truth about what they really do which poses a big problem in the relationship.

I still want them to find a girlfriend for Daniel.

I'm kind of on the fence on this one. A part of me would like to see Daniel have a girlfriend because I know Michael Shanks would bring so much to the relationship, but the the other part of me reminds me that this is a show about a team of people going through a big round thing to other planets and it's not a show about the Loves of Dr. Daniel Jackson.

And I'm also not too keen on the idea of Daniel being in a relationship, but having it only referred to in idle conversations. IMO, a relationship like that would be totally pointless and taking up valuable airtime that could be use for something more productive.

So, I've decided, as far as a relationship for Daniel is concerned, what I wouldn't mind seeing is a) an occassional episode where we see that Daniel might be having some rather strong emotions for one of the guest characters, but by the end we know it's not going to work out, but we also know there is a chance that she might come back, or b) hinting at something "more" between Daniel and Sam, or Daniel and "another female staff member of the SGC", but leaving it as subtext and not allowing it to appear at inappropriate moments.

See, I think it is possible to show that Daniel, or any other member of the team, has feelings for another character without making that be the only thing that that character is about. Does that make sense?


SueS

[Dana_Jeanne]

I'd like to see our boy face a few new roadblocks that he couldn't overcome, and dealing with them. You know, a few, "Red Sky (if the original ending had been left alone and they couldn't save the planet)" problems. Dealing with the consequences of hard choices that don't have easy answers. Much as I love SG1, I'm a little tired of the "we always save the day, get the bad guy" endings. I'd like to see a new show or two more like your choice of The Other Side.

The show's been very shallow, I think, the last few years, and I miss the ones where we had some ethical dilemas to face. We aren't perfect and all-mighty powerful and it's silly that we always win. And boring. And it all comes so easily. I want to see the team sweat for things.

Putting this back on Daniel-- I like to see his MIND work. I'm not into muscles and such, I'm into brains, and I find Daniel a lot more appealing when he's THINKING or using his talents to get them out of a 'situation' rather than guns and hand-to-hand fighting.

It started out as a drama and seems to have sequed into a semi-cartoon/comedy and I don't like that.

However-- as long as Daniel is there, so am I
Deej

[Tucker Case]

This somewhat 'resigned Daniel' is the one I think I have the most trouble accepting as the new norm. Which is why I'd like to see the new challenges coming up for him in Season 9.

I don't know if "resigned" is quite how I'd currently describe him, though. The implication I take from the word is one of defeat or submission, and that isn't something I see in Daniel now.

In Seasons 4-5, yes. I see resignation going hand-in-hand with the discouragement and disillusionment.

But somewhere over the course of Season 6, he chose to come back to this, whether he remembers it or not and that resignation seems to have given way to an attitude of, "Okay, I'll do this, but I'll do it my way and on my terms." I wouldn't go so far as to say he's embraced the military approach, but rather than capitulate to it he's calling the shots, deciding when and where and to what degree he'll adopt its measures.

I think what's happened more, in recent seasons, is that most of the storyline has been given over to existing conflicts, with virtually no missions starting out on a purely exploratory note where there's even a possibility that the peaceful explorer approach can carry the day. Daniel knows, going in to these assignments, that it isn't going to be "ask first, shoot later" and, because he's accepted that off the top, he doesn't argue the point later.

When the rare opportunity for a more humane approach does present itself, though, Daniel will advocate it as firmly as ever. It just hardly ever happens anymore.

What I have appreciated, especially through the second half of Season 8, is the greater effort the writers seemed to take to place Daniel, even in the middle of a guns-a-blazin' storyline, in situations that call on his more diplomatic or other-wordly attributes,

Spoiler:

sending him to Russia to talk in 'Full Alert,' to "Danny's World" to work a mental miracle in 'Reckoning,' to the Astral Diner to bring down Anubis by asking the right questions and convincing Oma to take responsibility in 'Threads,' and even keeping the focus of 'Prometheus Unbound' more on the way Vala tried to mess with his head than anything that happened to him physically

.

It gives me hope for Season 9, not just because there will be new challenges, which should allow for more "ask first, shoot later" opportunities, but because the writers seem to have a firmer grasp of where Daniel's real strength lies, and have become more adept at working that into episodes where Stuff Blows Up, and I think even Daniel was a little surprised by it.

He's still learning just how much he has to offer.

TC

[Dana_Jeanne]

Ach! I had forgotten about Icon! Good points, Foxy. All I can remember about that ep is that I most sympathized with the woman's husband's plight, which I wasn't sure was what the writers intended....ambiguity, indeed.

I was thrown off by the style and pacing in Icon and therefore have only watched it once, when it first ran. But I might still have it on tape, and your post makes me wanna go watch it again.

LOL-- Actually, I wanted to smack the husband, but that's just me. I'm not sure how I feel about Icon. I watched it a couple times (Hurt Daniel, what can I say? I'm a H/C slut ) but I didn't really like the story. It seemed to just skim the surface of what was happening and so didn't satisfy me. I never quite got any feeling of danger, or tension, and I knew Daniel would get home, so... eh.
Deej

[Dana_Jeanne]

So, I've decided, as far as a relationship for Daniel is concerned, what I wouldn't mind seeing is a) an occassional episode where we see that Daniel might be having some rather strong emotions for one of the guest characters, but by the end we know it's not going to work out, but we also know there is a chance that she might come back, or b) hinting at something "more" between Daniel and Sam, or Daniel and "another female staff member of the SGC", but leaving it as subtext and not allowing it to appear at inappropriate moments.

I go for 'A' myself. That would be exactly what one would expect with Daniel and his history. yes, I lilke that idea, Sue!

As for 'B', th writers have shown that they are totally incapable of writing something like that and LEAVING it as subtext, so I'd vote a big "NO" on this one

See, I think it is possible to show that Daniel, or any other member of the team, has feelings for another character without making that be the only thing that that character is about. Does that make sense?SueS

It makes a lot of sense, yes, but as I said above-- the current crop of writers either can't or won't keep it that way. Without getting into a debate, look at what happened to Carter: she suddenly has become all about her love life and nothing else. I do NOT want to see that happen to Daniel.

So. No sex for any of them

Deej

[blingaway]

So. No sex for any of them

Won't that just lead to more 'violence' episodes?

[Dana_Jeanne]

I don't know if "resigned" is quite how I'd currently describe him, though. The implication I take from the word is one of defeat or submission, and that isn't something I see in Daniel now.

I looked the word up in my Thesaurus. WRONG word! I was using it to mean something more along the lines of: I've tried everything, it isn't going to change, so I'm accepting it and moving on. Which, as I look at it, is rather a type of submission, isn't it? Especially as I'm taking the same word for Seasons 4-5 and giving it it's actual meaning.

But somewhere over the course of Season 6, he chose to come back to this, whether he remembers it or not and that resignation seems to have given way to an attitude of, "Okay, I'll do this, but I'll do it my way and on my terms." I wouldn't go so far as to say he's embraced the military approach, but rather than capitulate to it he's calling the shots, deciding when and where and to what degree he'll adopt its measures.

He was bound and determined to do it his way in Abyss, wasn't he? The proverbial straw and camel, I think. I can see what you're saying, although I'm not quite convinced I have seen that he's 'winning' his 'arguments' with Jack more often, almost as though Jack is trusting him more now than he did pre-ascension. Icon for example, Jack lets him go back. Ummm... Endgame-- I got the feeling Daniel was going after Sam regardless of what Jack said!

I think what's happened more, in recent seasons, is that most of the storyline has been given over to existing conflicts, with virtually no missions starting out on a purely exploratory note where there's even a possibility that the peaceful explorer approach can carry the day. Daniel knows, going in to these assignments, that it isn't going to be "ask first, shoot later" and, because he's accepted that off the top, he doesn't argue the point later.

Excellent point and one I agree with completely. I wish there weren't so many of those, though!

When the rare opportunity for a more humane approach does present itself, though, Daniel will advocate it as firmly as ever. It just hardly ever happens anymore.

This is what I'm really hoping will happen in S9. With all the new things they're supposed to be discovering it should be heaven for Daniel and his archeaology gene!

What I have appreciated, especially through the second half of Season 8, is the greater effort the writers seemed to take to place Daniel, even in the middle of a guns-a-blazin' storyline, in situations that call on his more diplomatic or other-wordly attributes,

Spoiler:

sending him to Russia to talk in 'Full Alert,' to "Danny's World" to work a mental miracle in 'Reckoning,' to the Astral Diner to bring down Anubis by asking the right questions and convincing Oma to take responsibility in 'Threads,' and even keeping the focus of 'Prometheus Unbound' more on the way Vala tried to mess with his head than anything that happened to him physically

.

I've noticed that also and give HUGE kudos and thanks to Damien Kindler and Mallozzi and Mullie who wrote most of those episodes. Especially Reckoning II. Yes. Absolutely!

Very good post, TC.

Deej