Daniel Jackson Discussion and Appreciation

[discodiva]

Now it's a bit early in the morning for deep thinking stuff for me, but I'll have a go.....

Speaking as one of the "older" Daniel fans I have to say that I don't see Daniel's progression as odd at all....when you reach your forties (and yep I'm just about still in them!! ) and have experienced so much then you can't help being a completely different person than you were 10 (or more) years ago....I happen to think that ALL of SG-1's characters have changed....whether for the better or worse and whether the writers have written these changes accurately, that's obviously a matter for my own personal conjecture....

As far as the fans' opinions go, well internet forum fans are probably 10 times more passionate and involved with their favourite characters than, say, the casual fan - someone like my son who loves the series, has enjoyed his Con experience, but would probably look completely nonplussed at us all on here when we go into the finer points of our favs' "ups and downs"....

My favourite is quite obviously Daniel and yes it hurts when I see unfavourable things written about him - or more upsettingly MS - that I don't see or agree with, but I've always tried not to reply for courtesy's sake as we all have our own equally valid opinions....there are characters on SG-1, past and present, that I haven't liked as much as the characters of Jack and Daniel.....they to me ARE Stargate SG-1 and have been from the beginning - and I'm talking the film here too - however I know that for many, they are not and their view is equally important to them and who am I to argue with that....

The upshot for me is that I keep it light and fun on the threads I post in, read some of the other stuff, but I KNOW who Daniel is for me in my "fandom head" and I'm happy with that....if I wasn't then I'd stop posting on GW and either find another forum that shared my views more, or leave forums completely and stick to my LJ with those of my friends who are still happy to talk Stargate stuff....

Ooops....gone OT and generalised a bit there.....Do I think Daniel's changed too much?...changed - yes ....too much?....for me - no....I still love the complicated character that he is...he's older, wiser, more cynical, shorter of temper (and believe me, that DEFINITELY comes with age - take it from one who knows ) but essentially he still has those "Daniel" moments that make me love him just as much.....

Phewww......now I require a large intake of caffeine after that!....

And no-one should have to apologise for their opinions upsetting people....if they're polite and well written and on the right thread then imho they're as valid as anyone's....it's when sarcasm and ridicule for characters, actors and other posters creeps in that turns me off....



Deeds xx

[Callista]

Speaking as one of the "older" Daniel fans I have to say that I don't see Daniel's progression as odd at all....when you reach your forties (and yep I'm just about still in them!! ) and have experienced so much then you can't help being a completely different person than you were 10 (or more) years ago....I happen to think that ALL of SG-1's characters have changed....whether for the better or worse and whether the writers have written these changes accurately, that's obviously a matter for my own personal conjecture....

Deeds xx

I absolutely agree. When I look back on myself 10 years ago, I'm amazed at the changes. I'm much more confident, much less naive, and (I hope) wiser.

And you're right, they've all changed a lot. Daniel may be the most obvious because his looks (both physical and style of clothing) have probably changed the most since the beginning, but they're all different.

Sam is no longer the wide-eyed super enthusiastic girl with a bit of a chip on her shoulder from her Dad and having to fight her way into a very masculine world. She's now a leader, she's confident, she's more of a realist and she's definitely more sarcastic.

Teal'c used to be quiet and stoic and driven by guilt (at least that's what I always thought) over what he's done in the past. Now, he's his own man. He doesn't really take orders anymore....he's just working with the people. He's more of an equal. He's funny. And HE GIVES SPEECHES!! He's like a motivational speaker now! Who would've thought that 10 years ago?!?

I'd say Jack changed the least. I suppose because he was already supposed to be the mature, wiser one with all the experience under his belt. He got more and more sarcastic and made more and more wise-cracks over the years, but he doesn't seem that different to me.

Daniel, of course has changed a lot. He, like Sam, has lost a lot of his enthusiasm and awe (although that still sneaks in every once in a while) and he certainly isn't as naive as he used to be. He's more sure of himself. He always stood up for himself, but I guess he doesn't need to fight everyone so much anymore because he's earned their trust and respect. (I know last night's episode may beg to differ, but that was definitely an extenuating circumstance!) And he's had an incredible amount of loss and pain and personal growth in those 10 years. He had the biggest life change. He went from the world of academia to the military. That's huge! Over the years he's adjusted to it.....he'd have had to or either leave or get fired or killed. And Daniel has gained that snarky humor as well.

I know the team doesn't seem as touchy/feely as they used to and I miss that, too. But I understand that they've all matured, they no longer feel the need to protect eachother from everything because they have all proven themselves to be very capable. They don't need to talk through things as much together because they all know what the others are going to do and they're confident enough with their own positions that they don't really need to convince eachother and themselves that they're right.

They've all gotten more sarcastic. It could be from being around Jack, or it could be just from getting older. I know my humor has gotten much snarkier than it was 10 years ago. I'm not quite so afraid of offending people anymore so more stuff slips out. And, you're right, Deeds, patience is one of the first things to go!

I also find it sad or odd that people get so very upset about the way things have gone. Especially to the point where fans of different characters seem to feel the only way for themselves to feel better is to tear down the other characters and the actors who portray them. I happen to like everyone on the show. Even so, I like Daniel best and I probably wouldn't watch if he weren't on. But I certainly am not going to rant and rave if someone else gets some screen time. I think they're all great characters and really good actors. Especially when I try to watch some other show. Heck, I love 24, but I don't think anyone on that show can hold a candle to anyone on SG-1 acting-wise or writing-wise.

[poundpuppy29]

ITA with both of you I am glad some of the fans of Daniel from the beginning say that it is natural progression. I have noticed that most of the anti Daniel and anti MS is from the AT Sam fans who don't like Daniel and never have and don't like anything that focus on him. Daniel is my favorite but I don't hate Sam what I like about Daniel is you always get emotion out of him but not Sam she can be cold sometimes but I know it is not AT all the interviews and behind the scenes stuff I have seen she is very warm and engaging. If it weren't for Daniel I wouldn't have made the effort to see the whole series like I did he drew me in.

[discodiva]

Thank you for the encouragement for my "early morning" post.....as I said I won't (or very very rarely) go on Anti threads to post my opinions....it's not my thing although I fully understand that other people may want to.....

I just wanted to give our Daniel (and in a roundabout way and his acting, Michael Shanks) some support and credit for a complicated character portrayed, in the main, extremely realistically and well over the past 10 years....

And after all it is a Daniel Discussion and Appreciation thread....and I certainly do appreciate him....he's been responsible for me having a great time enjoying Stargate over the past few years.....


Deeds xx

[poundpuppy29]

Daniel is a very complex character he is open but not at the same time if that makes sense.

[jdjunkie]

I'd like to join in here, if I may, in seconding some excellent points made by Deeds, Callista and Poundpuppy.
As a Daniel fan of long standing, I'm getting more than a little tired of the character bashing he's enduring in some threads these days. But I do question the motivation of some it. Bearing in mind the murky waters of fan politics, I fear that much of it isn't really aimed at Daniel at all, but at Michael himself.
If the Sam fans think that Sam/AT is taking a bashing at the moment, they should have seen some of the vituprative bile that was spat Michael's way by some fans when he left, and still is, given very little provocation, so it's worth bearing that in mind.
That said, everyone is entitled to their opinion and that's fine. But there is a line to be drawn, I think, between what's acceptable and what isn't. Character criticism? Okay, yep. Actor bashing? Nope. It's just that I think with Daniel, perhaps more than any other character, the line is blurred. Maybe it's because of Daniel's passionate nature; Michael's passionate about his character, too. If he hadn't been, he wouldn't have walked away when he did. And that all creates a passion in his fans, too. Hmm, that's a LOT of passion which in turns engenders a passionate response from those who don't like Daniel/MS. Heck, I've gone on a bit there. Wonder if it makes any sense?
Anyhooo, has Daniel changed? Yes? Too much? No, not in my opinion. I see it as being a very natural character progression. Daniel's always been pragmatic, a quick learner, adaptable. He's never changed at heart ... he's still that "little orphan boy in a big universe" that Michael spoke so affectionately of, and he pops out to play every now then, even in later seasons.
I'm not the same person I was 10 years ago. I think Daniel would be pretty odd if he had remained unchanged. That would suggest he hasn't learned anything; hasn't grown, and he clearly has.
I'll defend Daniel to my dying breath. He's the heart and soul of Stargate SG1 and always has been. He and Jack drew me in, and Daniel has held me following Jack's departure.
Apologies for the length of this ... but I feel much better now I've said it

[discodiva]

Constructive criticism and personal opinions and suggestions are fine with me.....I do agree with the idea of protected threads so that people can either enthuse or despair over the changes (or not) of their favourite character....

I absolutely abhor anyone who ridicules or insults an actor but I also don't see why characters have to be subject to ridicule as well and have distasteful remarks made about them.... ...... I just don't understand it... ...whether we like them or not, the writers, actors and all those people behind the scenes have invested their time and money into those characters and trying to bring something for everyone whilst competing against the ebb and flow of other series in the genre....

...All these characters imho have something to contribute to the many wonderful and varied storylines throughout the 10 years of Stargate SG-1...

Why make up nicknames when the characters have perfectly good ones.....I'm not blind that I can't see Daniel's faults sometimes....he's had them from the start - right from the film when he was played by a completely different actor for goodness sake, but I see no need to call him by anything than his name....In the early seasons I found him to be obstinate and pig headed sometimes, far too niaive sometimes and there have been many times I've found myself taking Jack's side in an argument with him - but I still loved him....

However, what drew me in with Daniel was the unpredicability...as the seasons progressed I found that I was always looking out to see what HE was going to do next, not the other characters.....flaws, faults and all....and to me he's still doing that during this last Season....

I hope he doesn't change, well he does, then he doesn't.....he's still quite the chameleon to me....

Deeds xx

[JessM]

Okay, I have a ton to catch up on here so I hope you'll all bear with me...

First, to poundpuppy... no you didn't offend me and I'm glad I didn't offend you. I'm glad you agree that they could have balanced the friendships more. I guess that's what has been bugging me most about the most recent seasons.

First of all, I agree with you guys. I want Daniel to have more interactions with Sam and Mitchell. That’s what I was saying. Yes, MS and Daniel are very different. That’s why I think MS is a talented actor. I always see movies and dramas for characters. That’s why I wanted to bring this thread back

And I think you are pretty reasonable too, Jess. Don’t worry!

Thanks, I'm glad you think so too, Lily. But after reading some of the more recent posts I'm not sure anyone else thinks so I'll get to that in a bit, though...

Really? I didn’t know that. But now I know why I felt strange about that episode ... except for the first segment with Jack, Daniel, and Hammond (I loved that!). As for Vala, I hated her in Prometheus Unbound (Sorry!), but I’ve come to like her in S9 & 10. I liked Memento Mori. I thought Daniel was in character in it. (But I’m not so sure now that the possible sub context was revealed in Upending, you know.) I also liked her friendship with Sam displayed in The Road Not Taken and Family Ties. (I’m not spoiling, am I??) I wish they had stuck to this team friendship policy.

I blame the writers and TPTB for the most part, of course! It’s just that MS didn’t seem to disagree with them. Anyway, another thing that bugs me in recent seasons is that so many innocent people die so carelessly and meaninglessly. That’s totally their fault! It wasn’t like that in early seasons. It was more human. That’s one thing I definitely miss in early seasons.

I see Daniel up to S8 mostly in character. I don’t know ... I can’t put a finger on when it started, but I sometimes find him out of character recently. (I could understand him in Prototype given his experiences in Absolute Power and Lockdown, although I admit seeing him shoot like that was a bit shocking ... uh, if that’s what you mean, Jess?) I thought his change in S7 was reasonable. He’d been getting more tense and worn out to the end of S5, which is also understandable given the situations. I think he broke free from it in a way and got relaxed a little through his death, ascension, descension, memory loss, and homecoming. Well, that's how I see it.

Anyway, Daniel is still my favorite character and I sure hope we can see more team interaction and friendship moments in the upcoming movies.

Yup, MS said it at the Creation Con in NJ in August, 2004. He said that PU was one of his favorite eps because Daniel gets to have funny lines in it, and he's more like himself there than he was Daniel. I actually took notes at this con for my report, and that was what he said. If anyone wants to read the report let me know and I'll post the link to it.

I agree with you about the early seasons definitely. And I know a lot of people probably object to people finding Daniel out of character so I hope you all won't flame me or red me for saying this but I agree with you there. Yeah, that was basically what I meant when I was talking about Prototype. I saw it again in CoT

Spoiler:

(when he and Vala waved to the guy who was beamed out of the ship)

I know Daniel has changed a lot and I know that change was inevitable... characters just like people grow and change over time. I guess it's just the way he's changed that I'm not totally happy about, including some of his attitude. He seems to be a lot more snarky and sarcastic and his humor just seems a bit "off" to me at times - NOT all the time, just at certain times. I think the problem is that they're injecting Jack's humor into Daniel. Yes, I expect that Jack would rub off on Daniel after knowing him for so long and spending time with him, but it's just that Daniel's humor has never been the same as Jack's, especially the comedic timing.

The thing I liked about Jack was that he would deliver lines in such a way that they'd make you laugh even if the writers didn't really intend it to be funny. It was in Jack's nature to be snarky. IMHO, it was not Daniel's nature to be this way. Yes he's been snarky over the years, but it was pretty subtle for the most part. Now it's really blatant. It's as if the writers give him "funny" lines because they know Daniel can't give a straight line a sarcastic twist and have it end up the same way as when Jack delivers it. It just seems a bit forced to me. I give props to MS for doing the best with what he's being given, but I do blame the writing.

I hope some of that makes sense... I have a terrible time explaining things sometimes

Anyway as far as hoping for more friendship in the movies, I'm with you there. Maybe the fact that they have more time to play with means they can put more character moments in it.

[JessM]

I don't have time to go through all the replies, but some things I've picked up here make me feel really ashamed of my opinions and make me think I should stop posting here. I know that probably doesn't make any sense so I'll explain... and I hope my explanation will make sense, or in the least, show you where I'm coming from...

I agree Callista that they've all changed a lot over the years (and Jack probably the least). I don't see how they couldn't. I'm not particularly happy with some of those changes, and I blame the writers (for instance, I'm not very happy that Sam and Teal'c have become virtually wallpaper this season).

I know the team doesn't seem as touchy/feely as they used to and I miss that, too. But I understand that they've all matured, they no longer feel the need to protect eachother from everything because they have all proven themselves to be very capable. They don't need to talk through things as much together because they all know what the others are going to do and they're confident enough with their own positions that they don't really need to convince eachother and themselves that they're right.

I suppose that makes sense but it makes me pretty sad. The reason? Because it seems unbalanced. We don't see Daniel, Sam or Teal'c having nice moments together, yet we see Daniel having these touchy/feely, etc. moments with Vala, Sam having touchy/feely, etc. moments with Cam, etc. So yes it seems the "old team" can have these nice moments, but only with the newcomers, not with each other. I guess that makes some sense as well, but it still would be nice to have some scenes that show that the "original team" members still care about one another. Is that really too much to ask? I guess it is...

They've all gotten more sarcastic. It could be from being around Jack, or it could be just from getting older. I know my humor has gotten much snarkier than it was 10 years ago. I'm not quite so afraid of offending people anymore so more stuff slips out. And, you're right, Deeds, patience is one of the first things to go!

I guess my opinion on this doesn't really matter because I'm only 29 and I don't have a whole lot of "age experience" to go on. I guess I've changed a bit in the past 10 years and have gotten a bit snarkier, but I'm still a bit worried about offending people because I generally hate arguing and hate having people mad at me. I guess that's a rather immature mindset, though I suppose what you say makes sense as far as the patience goes... I think mine's slipped a bit from where it was 10 years ago...

I also find it sad or odd that people get so very upset about the way things have gone. Especially to the point where fans of different characters seem to feel the only way for themselves to feel better is to tear down the other characters and the actors who portray them. I happen to like everyone on the show. Even so, I like Daniel best and I probably wouldn't watch if he weren't on. But I certainly am not going to rant and rave if someone else gets some screen time. I think they're all great characters and really good actors. Especially when I try to watch some other show. Heck, I love 24, but I don't think anyone on that show can hold a candle to anyone on SG-1 acting-wise or writing-wise.

See, this is why I feel like I should be ashamed of my opinions. I suppose posts that I've made here and in other threads make it seem like I'm bashing other characters or the actors playing them. No, I don't hate any of the characters (and certainly NOT their actors!!). I have some issues here and there with a few of them, but I don't hate them. Yes, I get disappointed when certain characters are denied any screen time together so that other characters can get them.

Yes, I'm not entirely happy with the way things have gone. I miss the old days when the team still acted like a team who cared for each other, not only caring about certain members (or at least showing most/all their care to certain members). I know it's not in the characters' natures to be that way - it's all the fault of the writing.

And, finally, yes, I do still adore Daniel. My respect for him has slipped a bit of late, but he is still my favorite character. I just tend to adore him a bit more in the early days. We don't all have to love Daniel 110% as he is now, do we?

As for the fans bashing him being mostly AT/Sam fans... I know that there were some who bashed Daniel/MS back when he left. It was right about the time I came into the fandom and I remember all of the mudslinging going on, even if I didn't take part in it. To this day I've come across one or two S/J shippers (not anyone I've seen here at GW mind you) who hate Daniel and bash him endlessly. But I don't think a huge majority of them today are Sam/AT/SamJack fans. On the flip side, I've met CB/Vala fans who hate Sam and bash her and/or AT (no one on this thread). It is a shame when it can get out of hand, I agree. Everyone should be entitled to their own opinions, though, so if I happen upon a certain thread and find opinions there that I don't like, I quickly move on.

I guess I don't belong in this thread anymore, even if a part of me still likes Daniel and will always like him. I'm sorry if I've made any of you mad if it sounded like I was bashing Daniel or any other character (or their actors). I never intended to really bash anyone, just state any misgivings or issues I had. I didn't think that would be a bad thing, but I suppose it is.

Suppose I'll leave now - I'm sorry for wasting everyones time

[Callista]

It's only natural that whenever there are changes, some people will be happy while others will be unhappy. I don't have any problem at all with that. I must admit that I like Daniel better now than in the first couple of years. Actually, I like all of them better now than I did in the first couple of years. But that's just me. I certainly wouldn't expect everyone to feel the same as I do.

I just wonder if people would really be happy if there were no changes at all? I used to watch Law and Order and I loved it. (I know it's not completely comparable in this case as it's not really a character driven show, but it's the show that comes to mind.) I watched it for 3 or 4 years and then I quit altogether. Why? Because it was basically the exact same show episode after episode after episode. Even when they switched out regular characters, they'd bring in someone who would play pretty much the exact same part. I just got to the point of "Why watch? I know exactly what will happen. There's no suspense, no growth, no surprise......no reason to watch anymore."

That being said, I completely understand why, if the changes that came about were things that fans/viewers didn't like, people would quit watching the show or lose some of their enthusiasm. I've certainly stopped watching old favorite shows because the networks started messing with them or my favorite actor left or they went in a different path from what I found entertaining or enjoyable. There's nothing wrong with that. It's not like you make some commitment to watch the show and you have to feel guilty for leaving or you have to keep watching as long as it's on out of some sort of loyalty.

Jess, you're absolutely right that it isn't only Daniel/MS being bashed. There's a lot of Cam hatred. There's a lot of Sam hatred. Same for Vala and Lam and Landry and Jonas. There's a little bit towards Jack (there may be just as much as for everyone else, I just haven't come across it so much). The only one I see as not having hateful feelings directed towards them is Teal'c (which is kind of funny seeing as how it seems like in all the tourneys, the jaffa/Teal'c centered episodes are among the first to go). Even if the actors aren't best friends, they are at least co-workers and I've got to think most of them would be disturbed by the venom "their fans" fling towards the people they spend so much time with.

Discodiva mentioned that the people who come on GW to discuss are at least 10 times more passionate and involved than the typical viewer. Of course, that means we're going to be more attached to the characters. And that means we're going to be more upset when things don't go the way we'd like. And, of course the whole point of having a forum where we can come and discuss means that we are going to pick things apart much more than a casual viewer ever would. To me, discussion means that not everyone is going to have the same opinion. What fun is it if everybody agrees with everything? Not much, as far as I'm concerned.

Jess, your opinions are every bit as valuable and legitimate as anyone else's. Of course you are welcome to post here. And of course everyone doesn't have to love Daniel 110% all the time. I love my kids with all my heart, but that doesn't mean that sometimes I'm not mad at them or a bit disappointed in their behavior. The thread does say "discussion" as well as "appreciation". I think the first post marks it as being a pro-Daniel thread, but that doesn't mean no one can ever point out any faults. Some time ago, I mentioned that I kind of think Daniel has a dark part of himself that sometimes comes out when he is in certain circumstances. Most people didn't agree with me. (I don't think anyone did, but I can't remember for sure) But that's OK. That's just me stating my opinion. It doesn't really matter if I'm the only one who holds it.

I think what people are concerned about (at least, this is what I'm concerned about) is when a character can "do no right". No matter what happens, they'll get bashed. It seems a lot of fans have some sort of personal grudge against some of the characters or actors. I don't understand where that comes from. Sure, I like Daniel more than Jonas, but to start calling Jonas names and then start questioning CN's personal life, etc. that's going way over the line. I guess I'm not as invested as a lot of fans. I've only been watching for about 2 years. But, regardless of personal investment, calling the characters or actors hurtful names is just inappropriate and in very poor form. (I'm not saying you're doing that, Jess! I don't think you are.)

[poundpuppy29]

No Jess Don't leave your opinion is valid and appreciated you are not one of mean ones who say hurtful things in those threads. Your posts are always logical and intelligent and helps me see the other side in a rational way. Truth be told out of every ship for Daniel other than Vala Sam is the only one I could see anything happening. I do enjoy their friendship and I think they are each other's confidant at least in my AU I am still working on my fan fic with missing scenes and I have Daniel & Sam friendship moments planned. I think the team are Daniel's family and they will always be part of his life.

[JessM]

Thanks guys, I appreciate you putting things in perspective like this. I was just worried my opinions were upsetting anyone.

I agree it would be boring to keep watching the same show time after time, and change can be good. I guess for me it was the way it changed. But that is just me.

Thanks poundpuppy Friendship scenes are always nice... would look forward to seeing that

[madaboutdanny]

Thanks guys, I appreciate you putting things in perspective like this. I was just worried my opinions were upsetting anyone.

I agree it would be boring to keep watching the same show time after time, and change can be good. I guess for me it was the way it changed. But that is just me.

Thanks poundpuppy Friendships scenes are always nice... would look forward to seeing that

Why are you so worried that your opinion upsetting anyone? It's your right to express your opinion!! I totally disagree with you about Daniel and his changes through the years, I love D/V and I think that Daniel has always been sarcastic and snarky perhaps in a subtle way....now he is less patient and shows more easely his feelings...So, don't care too much about people that disagree with you and don't apologize for what you think, even if what you think is upsetting...the main point is that you aren't insulting...and you aren't it! So, take it easy...

[JessM]

Thanks madaboutdanny... I guess I do worry too much, lol I'm fine with other opinions as long as people are respectul... and it appears everyone here is respectful even if we don't agree so I really appreciate that.

[MaeveBran]

I agree about characters changeing in 10 years. I know at 28 that I'm not the same person I was at 18. I like Daniel at all the stages along the way. I became a fan in August. (The first episode i ever saw was 200) I was predisposed to like Daniel since my best friend did and I had been reading her fan fic for years without watching the show. (wierd I know but not the first fandom athat has happened in for me.) Daniel is my access point to the universe of Stargate the character I identify most with. (Strange comming from a 28 year old woman to say she identifies with a fourty something man.) I love history and culture and I admire Daniel's values. Ilove that he is flawed because people are not perfect and St. Daniel would be boring.=)

I absolutely abhor anyone who ridicules or insults an actor but I also don't see why characters have to be subject to ridicule as well and have distasteful remarks made about them.... ...... I just don't understand it... ...whether we like them or not, the writers, actors and all those people behind the scenes have invested their time and money into those characters and trying to bring something for everyone whilst competing against the ebb and flow of other series in the genre....

I don't understand it either. I would add though that the people involved in making the show especially the writers and actors have invested emtional engery and pieces of their heart and soul into bring us these episodes for 10 years. It saddens me to see people bashing what others have invested their hearts in. All works of art carry bits of the artist with them so to bash a writer's or actor's or any artist's work bashes the person too. Constructive critiscism helps improve the work but negativety doesn't.