Teal'c/Christopher Judge Thunk/Discussion/Appreciation

[Pitry]

Yay you revived the Teal'c thread - I went looking and couldn't find this the other day...on Teal'c and the Jaffa

Yeah I know! I had to go through hell in order to dig it up! Poor thread.*strokes thread*

Spoiler:

Bra'tac mentions to Teal'c that the Jaffa have had centuries of fighting each other and will not work together easily; that they worked so hard for freedom that they did not work nearly enough on what to do with that freedom when they got it...he also cautions Teal'c that uniting the Free Jaffa nation will take Teal'c from the Tau'ri.

True, but at that point in time, Teal'c is willing to make that sacrifice - I think he tells Bra'tac at that point that he knows what it means and that he'd have to leave SG1?
as You've said...

The opening of S9 sees Teal'c sitting on the Jaffa Council amidst the politics between forming new rules on how they should govern themselves or old...Teal'c is warned by Rak'nor that he's spending too much time with the Tau'ri and losing ground to Gerek - ultimately Gerek wins the debate. Had Teal'c not been diverted by the treasure hunt and Daniel getting linked with Vala would they have had the same outcome??

I think so, actually. First, he did pass on his vote - but most importantly, everyone knew what his opinions and Bra'tac's are and yet they still chose the opposing party. I'm not sure Teal'c can convince them better than, let us say - Bra'tac, who has been travelling amongst the rebel Jaffa together with Rya'c since season 6 or so. If naything, Bra'tac's much more used to it. See, that's what bothers me about Teal'c back then - he should have seen this coming. He had this high belief of the nobility of the Jaffa - but after all these years and everything he and Bra'tac said over and over again - and despite being called "bloodkin to all Jaffa" - the Jaffa still refuse to take their advice!

When Teal'c and Bra'tac challenge Gerek railroading the Jaffa into Origin, Teal'c makes it clear to Bra'tac that he expects Bra'tac to be the leader not himself despite the fact that with his convincing Gerek to do the right thing, he once again proves his leadership skills. Teal'c then obviously does work hard with the Jaffa to get the democracy way of doing government agreed (Stronghold) but it seems he's working to make Bra'tac leader not himself.

Yes, I definittely agree Teal'c doesn't want to be the leader - but I'm suspecting the reasonings have changed. Back then, I think he feels there are perhaps people who are better for the job - speciically, Bra'tac. Bra'tac's been his teacher ever since forever, after all - how can he see himself in a position of power over Bra'tac's own?
But now... now I'm getting the feeling that if he was offered and declined, it would have been for different reasons. To make a silly Babylon 5 comparisment, I suspect his reaction would be much more similar to G'Kar's in the beginning of season 4 when he is being made that offer.

That Se'tec rather than Bra'tac becomes leader is a bit of a surprise (especially given in one AU in Ripple Effect Bra'tac is mentioned as the leader) and must be another disappointment for Teal'c who by now is deeply entrenched in the fight with the Ori with the Tau'ri. Teal'c's disillusionment with his people in Counterstrike is the culmination of all of this thread from Threads...

Yet the question has to be asked, did Teal'c effectively abandon his people and so by doing so make it less likely that they would unite? If Teal'c had remained as a permanent presence within the Council and as part of its leadership would they have been able to do more to have united the Jaffa and made them better and more honourable allies? Has Teal'c's own personal preferences created the mess in the first place?

*cue dramatic music*
Mmm... I don't think this has happened because of Teal'c. I think this has happened despite. Because with all of Teal'c's nobility, he's a bit too noble for hte real world, that is fulled with stupid Jaffa who would choose over Setak and his ideas. Setak seems to live more in the "real world" - Teal'c own belief, since the beginning, that it would be better to die free than live as a slave - first it has to be noted that he himself in the beginning wasn't compeltely true to that, was he? He dind't leave Apophis - not until it wasn't certain death. That's what he tells Jack - "many have said that - but you're the first one I believe could do it" - a lot of people have begged for their life, but it was only when it was clear this isn't suicide that Teal'c has left Apophis and chose the "die free" mantra Later on, we do see that he had embraced it - perhaps it's the hope he's got from SG1, but he does believe that dying free will change something. But I always get the impression from the rest of the Jaffa that despite the fact this had become the new mantra, if you will, of the rebellion, and despite that most of the Jaffa are free now (why on earth does Ba'al still have Jaffa?!) - they'd rather stay alive.
...But who knows, maybe we'll even get an answer for some of that? I hope.

[hastiekido]

You beat me to it hastie!....I was just posting for Teal'c and Daniel Tuesday on the DJ Thunk thread and thought our lad might have been feeling a bit left out on here.....

Yeah....for a man of few words he does have a very expressive face.....I think Chris does a wonderful job portraying Teal'c using such controlled emotions, especially as he's so hyper in real life....

Deeds xx

[Admiral Q O]

Good morning, everyone!

[Admiral Q O]

J: Let's just get this over with.


T: Was that so uncomfortable, O'Neill?


J: Yes, as a matter of fact, it was. You have the sweatiest palms...

[Rachel500]

Hmmm...

Spoiler:

I think so, actually. First, he did pass on his vote - but most importantly, everyone knew what his opinions and Bra'tac's are and yet they still chose the opposing party. I'm not sure Teal'c can convince them better than, let us say - Bra'tac, who has been travelling amongst the rebel Jaffa together with Rya'c since season 6 or so. If naything, Bra'tac's much more used to it. See, that's what bothers me about Teal'c back then - he should have seen this coming. He had this high belief of the nobility of the Jaffa - but after all these years and everything he and Bra'tac said over and over again - and despite being called "bloodkin to all Jaffa" - the Jaffa still refuse to take their advice!

I think by the time Avalon happens Teal'c is beginning to realise how disconnected he is to the Jaffa in many respects and how much more at home he feels with the Tau'ri. He's come to embrace a lot of the ideals, social norms and political principles of his adoptive planet and, in particular, America. Even back in The Warrior that division is shown; Teal'c is taunted with turning his back on his own people to serve with the Tau'ri. Teal'c doesn't try to just unite the Jaffa people but change their traditions and ways. Gerek won the leadership based on traditional Jaffa law which Teal'c is no longer comfortable with.

You see I do think if Teal'c hadn't been distracted it may have led to a different result. If you've got a couple of crucial people who are undecided then being present is a big thing; and I think Teal'c, the one who had the courage to take the first step and openly oppose the Goa'uld, would have more bearing than Bra'tac at times; if for no other reason then would you want to say no to the big guy?

Yes, I definittely agree Teal'c doesn't want to be the leader - but In The Warrior, Teal'c I'm suspecting the reasonings have changed. Back then, I think he feels there are perhaps people who are better for the job - speciically, Bra'tac. Bra'tac's been his teacher ever since forever, after all - how can he see himself in a position of power over Bra'tac's own?
But now... now I'm getting the feeling that if he was offered and declined, it would have been for different reasons. To make a silly Babylon 5 comparisment, I suspect his reaction would be much more similar to G'Kar's in the beginning of season 4 when he is being made that offer.

You'd have to remind me what G'Kar's reasons were. Age, you know, memory's slipping.

I think if Teal'c were placed in the position of the various leaders of the Jaffa factions coming together and saying 'you are the only person who can lead us and we need you to show us the way', I think he'd be hard pressed to turn it down. I don't think Teal'c would ever turn away from his people even when bitterly disappointed in them.

*cue dramatic music*
Mmm... I don't think this has happened because of Teal'c. I think this has happened despite. Because with all of Teal'c's nobility, he's a bit too noble for hte real world, that is fulled with stupid Jaffa who would choose over Setak and his ideas. Setak seems to live more in the "real world" - Teal'c own belief, since the beginning, that it would be better to die free than live as a slave - first it has to be noted that he himself in the beginning wasn't compeltely true to that, was he? He dind't leave Apophis - not until it wasn't certain death. That's what he tells Jack - "many have said that - but you're the first one I believe could do it" - a lot of people have begged for their life, but it was only when it was clear this isn't suicide that Teal'c has left Apophis and chose the "die free" mantra Later on, we do see that he had embraced it - perhaps it's the hope he's got from SG1, but he does believe that dying free will change something. But I always get the impression from the rest of the Jaffa that despite the fact this had become the new mantra, if you will, of the rebellion, and despite that most of the Jaffa are free now (why on earth does Ba'al still have Jaffa?!) - they'd rather stay alive.
...But who knows, maybe we'll even get an answer for some of that? I hope.

Teal'c comes to the conclusion it would be better to die free after exposure to Earth, its politics and its history. In Bloodlines he notes that he has read up on slavery and he's come to understand the true reality of the Jaffa's relationship with the Goa'uld.

I think he also makes his initial decision in CoTG because he recognises the opportunity with the 'different' humans and those that actually have technology he hasn't seen, to finally make a difference; in Avatar, it is clear that he never believed he could make a difference on his own - that being part of SG1 was critical to the ability to defeat the Goa'uld. Before he meets Jack, Sam and Daniel he is trying to do the best he can in the world into which he was born; namely he achieves a position of power where he can try and influence the choices Apophis makes (Threshold shows us that) and in doing so realises the truth of his teacher's words that the Goa'ulds are not true Gods.

For the rest of the Jaffa who are not so close to the gods and only see their power, who are indoctrinated with centuries of dogma, the denial that the Goa'uld are anything but Gods is a hard thing to grasp. In fact, Teal'c's defection and survival beyond his betrayal are amongst the first things to start to shake the belief of the other Jaffa in the power of certainly Apophis and later other Goa'ulds as SG1 start killing them all off. It takes the bold move of taking the holy ground at Dakara to ultimately 'prove' to the Jaffa that the Goa'uld are not Gods.

I think the problem is that Teal'c fundamentally has 'out-grown' the feudal Jaffa culture in many ways by Avalon, and he's not only wanting to unite the Jaffa but take them forward politically. He's maybe pushing for too much change too soon.

Perhaps it wouldn't have made a difference to the decision in Avalon if Teal'c had been there but what if Teal'c had tried to do things slowly by working within the traditional Jaffa framework? He proved in the Fourth Horseman that he could reach Gerek. When Teal'c loses the argument in Avalon, he seems almost relieved at the excuse to return to the Tau'ri rather than stay with his own people.

Even when they do convince the Jaffa to embrace the democratic ideal (Stronghold), Teal'c continues to stay with the Tau'ri rather than fight the Ori with the Jaffa. It kind of begs the question why? Even if he wishes Bra'tac to assume the position of leader, are his motives purely based on thinking Bra'tac is the best Jaffa for the job or because he doesn't want to return to lead? Bra'tac sees Teal'c as the leader not himself because it has always been Teal'c that has led the open fight against oppression and slavery.

Again, it well be that the Jaffa are seeking leadership in the shape of what they've always known; the Goa'uld and hence you get a choice like Se'tak over Bra'tac; I always think Teal'c considers him as the embodiment of an honourable Jaffa warrior to which they should all aspire. But in most cases the Jaffa did not hold to a code of honour under the Goa'uld; they were expected to kill as ordered even close friends in order to win. Bra'tac's, and Teal'c's, honour code may seem weak in comparison. And I think Teal'c starts to realise that with how Gerek wins the first leadership battle that not all Jaffa hold to the same honour code he was taught by Bra'tac...although Gerek comes through as an honourable Jaffa in the end.

I also think the gut instinct in the face of the Ori threat for the Jaffa to seek a familiar type of leadership is why Ba'al actually has Jaffa. In fact Ba'al has a point in Stronghold (although typically he's setting about it in Machiavellian Goa'uld style), the Jaffa do need a strong leader who knows how to lead them. In some respects if he wasn't trying to brainwash the Jaffa with the idea, he might even attract others!

I think with Counterstrike the widening ideological differences between Teal'c and the new Jaffa leadership are highlighted very sharply through the ideological differences between the Tau'ri and the Jaffa. It's not just that the Jaffa are prepared to commit genocide in order to fight the Ori but that they are stuck in the old ways and once again are acting even without the honour that Teal'c believes a Jaffa warrior should have.

Should Teal'c have seen it coming? Possibly. Could he have prevented it if he'd stayed and been a visible symbol around which the Jaffa could have congregated? I think maybe.

I seem to have babbled...

[Admiral Q O]

[Pitry]

Oy, I'm going to go for various points with no quotes. Forgive me.

Spoiler:

I agree with the notion Teal'c feels right now more at home with the Tau'ri than the Jaffa. I'm not sure this is the onyl reason he's staying - at the end of the day, even when the rebellion took shape, back in season 6, he didn't join Bra'tac among the Jaffa but rather kept in SG1. I think - as you mentioned Avatar - he feels the greater differnece can be made with SG1, not with the Jaffa. The Jaffa dabble in politics, have their own agenda other than fighting the Orii, etc. With SG1, I think his resources are much more dedicated to fighting the Orii than they would have been with the Jaffa.
That been said, he definitely became more attached to Earth during his years in SG1. He's on going/ growing interest in Earth culture, Affinity etc. And I completely agree that the feudel and conservative nature of the Jaffa culture no longer appeals to him - if it ever did. I think that, also, was a bit of what I was driving at with the idea that the Jaffa wouldn't've picked him up no matter what as a leader - he's too radical for them. He's shaking the system too much. Look at the leaders they've chosen - Gerek (will I finally find the way of spelling his name?...) is a self-declared conservative, and Setek isn't much better - as Teal'c mentioned himself in Avalon, the more traiditonal Jaffa are the ones opposing Earth. Se'tek didn't sound too much as if he was supporting the alliance with Earth.

- And, see, that's in a democratic vote. That means (unless the vote was forged, of course ) - that the majority of the Jaffa support the old, conservative ways. And so they would never choose Teal'c - a known radical, in a way.
See, that's the thing. They can appreciate what he's done. They can thank him again and again, and truelly consider him their bloodkin. But at the end of the day, they find that they disagree with him and don't trust his way to lead them. That's why I'm no really leaning towards the possibility he could have made a different had he been in Dakara when the vote to choose Gerek was set. Hell, look at Fourth Horseman - he's on Dakara the entire time - and yet he still has to work hard - and almost fails - as the Jaffa consider whether to accept origin, and only after the problems with Gerek they go on to the more problematic path. I do rememeber the ex-first prime of Moloch at that scene, telling him they dind't believe he could do it the first time, and joining him to be proven wrong once again - but maybe that's the key. Up til the Goa'uld were actually defeated, a lot of the Jaffa didn't believe the rebellion has any sort of a chance.
Here's an interesting question (and sorry this is compeltely disorganised, I'm more or less wriitng what comes to mind...*small*) - where's the fallout of the Jaffa who fought with the Goa'uld til the last minute? Even with Gerek, we got to see the little scene saying he was a rebel Jaffa at heart even before the rebellion began. Where are the majority of the Jaffa, those who believed the Goa'uld were gods until proven otherwise? I would have liked a small touch, perhaps even with Setek, giving a background of one of these cjharacters. Hell, if the election were mentioed earlier - the majority of the Jaffa stopped believing in the Goa'uld after the fall; some of them might have just seen where the power shifted to now and chose the winning side, rather than the losing side - would Teal'c really have a chance at in these circumstances? As far as we know, the majority of hte Jaffa might still not believe in the rebellion at all - it's just a new reality for them, not ideology. They have no reason to choose Teal'c over anyone else (or even less of a reason, because if they don't like the change, he's the main person to blame).

Mmmm... I'll have to come back to you about the death by noble cause thingie. Still thinking it over - and I'm actually not so sure we're not saying the same thing.

Oh, as for G'Kar, he basically said he refuses to be the one replacing one tyrant with another, if memory serves... - I do feel this is relevant for Teal'c because as much as he would try and change the Jaffa society, he might be put in such a place as to become a tyrant on his own if he ever becomes their leader.

[hastiekido]

seems that our big fellow can use a bump...

[Sprinkles]

Congrats on 7500 Hastie!

[discodiva]

[hastiekido]

Congrats on 7500 Hastie!


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c3...t/Endgame8.jpg

Thanks Sprinkles!
But lets make it 5700 shall we?
]

[hastiekido]

[Sprinkles]

Thanks Sprinkles!
But lets make it 5700 shall we?
]

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a16...no400tealc.jpg

yes sorry about that, I guess my brains alittle fried today, I've apparently lost the ability to read boths words and numbers, doh!

or maybe it's to much thunking? ....nerrr

[hastiekido]

bumping from page 4!!

[hastiekido]