Ba'al /Cliff Simon Thunk,Discussion and Appreciation

[yasureubetcha]

I don't think I could love a "good" Baal the way I love him now. His dignity, subtlety, and (of course) gravity tricks are what make him such a splendid villain, but they would be wasted on a Tok'ra. To switch sides would steal a lot of the dignity that makes him himself.

The idea of him as a Tok'ra gone bad, though, is extremely intriguing. That would definitely add a new dimension to him, AND to Jacob's overt animosity toward him.

[Shep'sSocks]

I dislike the Tok'ra. I read something once - could have been in a fic - that the Tok'ra and the Goa'uld were essentially in a state of symbiote civil war. The Tok'ra are just as arrogant and nasty as the Goa'uld, the difference is that they don't take unwilling hosts. Despite the godhood complex, the Goa'uld are more honest than the Tok'ra.

[Wandering Tamer]

Ok, I've come to a conclusion. <that took all of ten minutes>

Ba'al is just as evil and psycotic as the other Go'aulds, he's just a lot smoother about it. I still agree that he sees the Tau'ri as closer to equals then as cattle, which is part of what makes him so insipid, but that's his character and part of his oh-so-evil charm. Seriously.

But still, he's a good look at what humans boil down to. See previous post. Enough philosophical moments for tonight though.

[emily_reich]

I don't think I could love a "good" Baal the way I love him now. His dignity, subtlety, and (of course) gravity tricks are what make him such a splendid villain, but they would be wasted on a Tok'ra. To switch sides would steal a lot of the dignity that makes him himself.

i agree... baal would be no fun if he was completely good... boring in fact... his snark is part of his charm but at the same time, he would suck if he was just another cliched, mustache-twirling evil goauld with no redeeming qualities.... his sincerity and actual willingness to help and willingness to go against anubis (not caring how much anubis would hate him later) which, although could ultimately have some self-serving purpose (debate that as ya will... i think it's partly-self-serving, partly not), are in the grand scheme of things positive and good qualities... and THAT'S also a big part of his charm, and he wouldn't be the baal we know and love without them...

so all in all, i'd say it's his ability to COMBINE good and bad qualities of a person that makes him REALLY intriguing... thinking of abyss here, how he just calmly (and charmingly) and non-chalantly walks around with knives stabbing jack with his hand behind his back, a smirk on his face, and even a little smiling and laughing mixed in, and then giving the antidote to the acid and going so far as to say he believes jack and tries to get down to their equal dislike for the tok'ra to get the answers he wants...

he's cunning, sadistic, and sneaky yet intelligent, merciful, and sincere all at the same time that's why i like him

The idea of him as a Tok'ra gone bad, though, is extremely intriguing. That would definitely add a new dimension to him, AND to Jacob's overt animosity toward him.

glad SOMEONE thinks it's a fun theory (i have NO reason whatsoever to believe that it will be anywhere in the show, but that's not what wild speculation is for, is it?? )

never even THOUGHT of the jacob thing... selmak would be oldenough to remember such things, huh???

thing is, what if ALL the goauld we know of as goauld are just tok'ra gone bad, though (or all spawned from one queen who went evil, not the other way around)??? but then i suppose the tok'ra would make the arrogant claim that they were how it all started... but then it doesn't make a WHOLE lot of sense for a goauld (knowing that how they procreate includes passing of all knowledge and such) to suddenly be born who isn't evil out of all that evil.... plus they even SAY it's the sarcophogus that makes them as evil as they are... so wouldn't the ORIGINAL situation be NO sarcophogus, therefore somehow meaning that the goauld didn't USED to be as evil????

well methinks that's just another unexplained plothole that i don't really care about story-wise i suppose this is one question we'll never have answered.... not that i care, but it IS fun to think about!

[Wandering Tamer]

of course. that's what plot bunnies are for. that and reading inbetween the lines for strange pairings. hehe.

[emily_reich]

hehe... yup... we're the QUEENS (and kings) of reading between the lines that's why it's our slogan

and yes... the world is going to be taken over by plot bunnies!!!

[Merrin_Delaney]

hehe... yup... we're the QUEENS (and kings) of reading between the lines that's why it's our slogan

and yes... the world is going to be taken over by plot bunnies!!!

Yeah, but there are only two or three people who are willing to adopt the poor darlings *sob*

[emily_reich]

i know!!! *sob* i'd do it if i could actually write! plus, i want smut... i can't write smut!

[Shep'sSocks]

i agree... baal would be no fun if he was completely good... boring in fact... his snark is part of his charm but at the same time, he would suck if he was just another cliched, mustache-twirling evil goauld with no redeeming qualities.... his sincerity and actual willingness to help and willingness to go against anubis (not caring how much anubis would hate him later) which, although could ultimately have some self-serving purpose (debate that as ya will... i think it's partly-self-serving, partly not), are in the grand scheme of things positive and good qualities... and THAT'S also a big part of his charm, and he wouldn't be the baal we know and love without them...

What do you mean partly not? He couldn't destroy the weapon himself, he was out for himself, and so as a matter of self-interest and self-preservation he went to the SGC as people he knew could do it for him. He could have done it himself except that Anubis would have known. I don't see him doing that for the good of mankind.

And isn't it ironic that had Ba'al gone after the weapon himself Anubis would have had to have acted, thus bringing the Ancients down on him. He would have been removed from the picture anyway.

so all in all, i'd say it's his ability to COMBINE good and bad qualities of a person that makes him REALLY intriguing... thinking of abyss here, how he just calmly (and charmingly) and non-chalantly walks around with knives stabbing jack with his hand behind his back, a smirk on his face, and even a little smiling and laughing mixed in, and then giving the antidote to the acid and going so far as to say he believes jack and tries to get down to their equal dislike for the tok'ra to get the answers he wants...

A psychopath doesn't necessarily know his actions are wrong, a sociopath knows and doesn't care.

he's cunning, sadistic, and sneaky yet intelligent, merciful, and sincere all at the same time that's why i like him

And really really pretty...

glad SOMEONE thinks it's a fun theory (i have NO reason whatsoever to believe that it will be anywhere in the show, but that's not what wild speculation is for, is it?? )

never even THOUGHT of the jacob thing... selmak would be oldenough to remember such things, huh???

thing is, what if ALL the goauld we know of as goauld are just tok'ra gone bad, though (or all spawned from one queen who went evil, not the other way around)??? but then i suppose the tok'ra would make the arrogant claim that they were how it all started... but then it doesn't make a WHOLE lot of sense for a goauld (knowing that how they procreate includes passing of all knowledge and such) to suddenly be born who isn't evil out of all that evil.... plus they even SAY it's the sarcophogus that makes them as evil as they are... so wouldn't the ORIGINAL situation be NO sarcophogus, therefore somehow meaning that the goauld didn't USED to be as evil????

well methinks that's just another unexplained plothole that i don't really care about story-wise i suppose this is one question we'll never have answered.... not that i care, but it IS fun to think about!

Except all the Tok'ra gone wrong theory doesn't explain the instant evilness of a Goa'uld when implanted. Nice plot bunny, though.

[emily_reich]

ok... agree to disagree??? ('cept on the "really, really pretty" of course )

and why else would i put it forth BESIDES plot bunny?? plot bunnies are lovely

[Shep'sSocks]

I'd like to see some sort of AU version of Reckoning where it's just Ba'al vs ScabbyFace.

[emily_reich]

lol..... that'd be kinda fun ('cept it wouldn't help us baal/sam shippers out at all ... maybe baal and sam vs scabbyface??? plot bunny!! )


but then again (maybe fyi ), you're here talkin to the QUEEN of wild speculation and theories that will prob'ly/definately never be true or even happen not to mention viewing characters COMPLETELY different from everyone else ....ok, don't QUITE know where i was goin with that... but i guess it goes to show i'm used to people disagreeing with my wild theories/viewpoints and i don't mind reading OTHER weird ones...

[The Ultimate Obsession]

^ LOL.... hey!! who knows!!!!

and i heard a call for a baal sig pic!!!! well it depends whether you like the kind i made for Shep'sSocks... i have about 150 pictures to choose from, so if ya want one that's kinda along those lines, i can make it!!!

Oh yes yes that would be great!!

[PiB]

ok - thought i'd show you guys these - am currently in the process of trying to upload them to Cliff's Webby (i run the website and being as i've been in a car crash and am off work, i have some time on my hands)







I can't remember the rules for posting images but if i've done a booby, feel free to re-size or change to links...

Regardless - enjoy!

PiB

[emily_reich]

i've made a few already here, i'll post all the baal sigs i have, and you can either take one or tell me which style you like the best