Sam Carter/Amanda Tapping Discussion/Appreciation

[Simhavaktra]

This is Astrogeologist's worst nightmare!

I know, I know. for Sam the Tok'ra.

There's a teeny potential for good things there, if Sam were to somehow end up agreeing to be host to an undoubted Tok'ra Queen - thereby ending up a Power in galactic politics - but I think the chances for that would be slim if Sam were Tok'rafied, alas...

[Simhavaktra]

…I'd like to believe that the reason we didn't see Sam much in tonight's episode is because Sam never stepped down from her position in R&D. She is still very much a part of R&D and that she's just doing it from the SGC now. It's also one of the only reasons I will believe that she wasn't worried about taking a step backwards in her career to be a part of SG-1; because in my mind she didn't. She's just adding her skill and experience to help out with SG-1 when it's necessary. Therefore there will be episodes throughout the season that are Sam-light, like Babylon, and I will just assume she is busy dealing with all of her other duties at the SGC.

…I'm hoping for more from Sam in the second half of the season. However, from what I read in spoilers, I really don't expect much more than three or four good Sam episodes this year and I really don't expect to see anything in terms of character development.

Warning - maundering ahead.

I agree with ForeverSG1 – one of the few notions that has made the idea that Sam would be asked/ordered to come back to SG-1 as second in command, much less do so apparently of her own choice, tolerable for me has been the thought that she’s actually retained command of R & D at Area 51. It doesn’t make the thought good mind, just tolerable, but tolerable is better than the deep and harsh insult that bringing the former commander of a unit back to that unit as second would constitute in real life. I suspect doing such a thing to an officer like Sam in real life might signal the end of her career: unless she managed to save the entire universe – because she’s saved the world more than once, and saved the galaxy in Reckoning, and still ended up right back under somebody else’s command of what she commanded in her own right at one time, so saving the world and the galaxy obviously weren’t enough to make her worthy of better – she’s going to be marked as failure, and retire a lieutenant colonel after being shunted from one administrative post to another. Yeah, yeah, yeah – she’s saved the world, but that’s no more than someone, namely her, is expected to do in her position, and when she does it again, it’ll be old hat and won’t count toward raising anyone’s opinion of her, nor possible advancement for her. She’d be seen, I think, as having Peter-Principled her way to her ultimate rank and position in the military, and there’d be no conceivable reason to advance her.

And that just galls me, especially as it seems that TPTB are writing episodes wherein they expect nary a member of the audience to have thoughts on the matter, much less such thoughts that require on camera response. It seems to me that TPTB expect the audience to have no more opinion of, nor feeling for, nor attachment to, the characters of Teal’c, Daniel, and Sam than the opinions, feelings, and attachments that TPTB are trying to build or incite between the audience and the character of Mitchell. I, for one, can’t go back to the opinion of Sam that I had during season’s 1 and 2, because, for one thing, I wasn’t watching Stargate then (serious lack of cable availability out here in the Pennsylvania sticks at that time), and, for another, what I heard in other on-line venues and read in various magazines, etc., during that time period left me with my Sturgeon’s Handy-Dandy Sci-Fi Dreck Detector firmly pegged at the max on the subject of Stargate SG-1. Surely TPTB wouldn’t want me to go back to not watching this show, and thinking its whole premise, top to bottom, sounds like a really ripe pile of crap, would they?

But that’s the vibe I get in season 9 – I’m only supposed to care about the plots (and I’m starting to wonder if those are plots are holey as some sort of peculiar reference to the Orii’s ‘Holy Plot’ to take over this galaxy, and I know my subconscious is telling me things are bad when I start amusing myself with puns of that… depth… of… er, as abysmal as that, because I’m not getting much else in the way of entertainment out of the show) and not really the characters in them, despite the fact that those characters are ‘people’ I’ve known and watched and seen built, developed, and revealed, for eight years. I’ve gotten to like them, and care about them, and now I’m supposed to drop all that, and revert to ‘oh, look – another problem to be solved, let’s see how creatively them can do that’? I’m just not making it as a viewer, if that’s the criteria for this season, or, indeed for this episode, Babylon.

And it seems especially true of how I’m supposed to regard Sam – yes, she wasn’t there for the first five eps, and yes, the actress playing her is a new mom, with all that entails, but none of that precludes writing tight, interesting plots, with good, meaningful, visible motivations for the character and visible, compelling interactions with the other characters. But the plots haven’t been tight or interesting, but they have been derivative, and reminiscent of Swiss Cheese. The characters aren’t interacting in an interesting, let alone compelling manner, despite the fun the actors are said to be having on the set.

And yes, Amanda doesn’t want to be Miss Exposition, but does that mean the only other choice is to showcase just how not-good at writing Carter into scenes in a non-expository capacity the writers really are? This ep looked like it. Why not have Sam help with the interrogation? At least to drive home the point that the tretonin is obviously working? Why not have her bring up the possibility of contacting the Tok’ra, to see if the existence of a Goa’uld resistance changes the ‘we are the only ones who count’ attitude? And, forgive me, but despite Teal’c’s efforts, this ep could have used some more exposition, like how the ‘Sodan invisibility devices’ differed in function from Niirti’s good old Goa’uld cloaking device, and were therefore to be sought, and why the Ancient transporter was so much more desirable than Asgard beaming technology, which can also transport people distances that would take months to cover on foot as close to instantaneously as makes no difference, and why nobody was taking TER’s to a planet where people were known to be using invisibility devices, and why Sodan warriors, knowing they’re invisible, don’t step aside when enemies run at them and thus preserve the illusion that they aren’t there?

This episode was definitely Sam-lite, if not downright Sam-peripheral. The episode could have proceeded just exactly as it did if Mitchell had gone through the Gate with SG-whatever, and left the rest of SG-1 at home, indeed, it might have come off better if it had been played that way, as Mitchell’s apparent attitude of ‘me ace fighter pilot, everybody and everything else not’ might have come off better if he’d been shoveling it at strangers. Though, having said that, I’m reminded that SG-13 in Heroes emitted a better, stronger ‘we’re a team’ vibe the instant they appeared on the screen, than SG-1 has shown at any time this season, so, maybe sending him with another team wouldn’t have helped there.

In the first scene, Sam seems like the only military personnel in the scene. She’s alert, and watchful, carrying her weapon as if she knows how to use it, and she’s keeping it at the ready. She’s concentrating on why they’re there. Mitchell… seems to be putzing around. It was as if the whole thing didn’t attain meaning for him until he engaged hero-mode under fire. It made me wonder if he has the skills, tactics, and strategies, essentially infantry or assault skills, tactics, and strategies, much less the experience to lead an SG team. Sam has attained those skills, tactics, and strategies via on the job training. Mitchell – isn’t really showing them at all.

(And that whole martial-arts-training-in-and-around-the-Sodan-village thing didn’t help my impression of his military skills, or the Sodan’s – those… cranberry staffs (apparently channeling Jack, sorry)… were an exercise in how not to design a blade that’s going to catch on every last thing and therefore probably get yanked out of the user’s hands, what’s his name seemed to be teaching Mitchell only one form which is useless if his opponent doesn’t make attacks that call for the counters he’s learning, nobody ever actually explained what this Sodan Path consisted of, the martial-arts-equals-discipline dialog was trite and clichéd, as was the alien-curare aspect of the formal duel, and the camera-work, and the oriental ethnicity of the humans/civilians/farmers living there under the protection of the Samurai Sodan. So Mitchell learned that blue is left and red is right and it’s good to jump when someone strikes at your legs with a staff – I’d have thought he could pick that up a lot faster. And Airborne – what’re they trying to tell us there? Isn’t that an Army program? Air Force pilots are taught to bail out of planes and parachute to the ground as a standard part of their training. So, what, Mitchell is supposed to be some kind of Air Force Special Forces? In addition to that Medal of Honor, he’s a stealth Special Forces operative? That’s a bit much, no?)

In fact, Sam is the most obviously military character in the whole ep. Landry comes off like a middle-manager bureaucrat, cost-benefit analysis, can’t waste any more time, yada, yada. I miss Hammond’s ‘we are going to find a way; I’ll stall, you find a solution – now get at it!’ attitude. And Dr. Lam… could someone just send a memo to the effect that maybe this is one of the reason’s that daughters wouldn’t be allowed to serve under their father’s command in such a capacity in the real military, because it affects the parties’ working relationship and job performance when they’re at odds, and the act-like-professionals fairy can go ahead and magic-wand some sense into the general and doctor both?

One thing that I really liked about Stargate in prior seasons was the way that, without resorting to rah-rah, Go Air Force dialogue from the characters, it managed to depict the military as a place of professionalism, dedication, intensity, determination, honor, integrity and close, personal bonds. In many ways, Sam was the character that was often used to point up those qualities and illustrate those bonds in prior seasons. Since that isn’t how the Air Force is being depicted this season, and Sam was formerly the character that segued Jack’s… Jack behavior… back to the officer and a gentlewoman/man military ideal, I wonder if the writers are having trouble figuring out what to do with her in general now.

So, I'm just going to imagine she's very busy with R & D things when she's being marginalized. (and expect the unheralded debut of the Mark X and /orother useful gizmos whenever the need arises )

[ChopinGal]

Shouldst anyone needeth some liquid refreshment, help thyself!



A somewhat sober Jester who is about to imbibe ... while she ponders the excellent critique given by Simha above.

[chocdoc]

Geez, if I know a forum is going to annoy me, I just avoid it. So, to use a hypothetical, I'll skirt any "Anise/Freya ROCKS!!!" forums that should happen to crop up.
My two cents is that a Carter vs. Mitchell feud is a vast waste of time & energy, especially when the real menace comes from the pro-Vala movement. If, as Mallozzi claims, adding a new cast member means subtracting somebody else, I'll give you three guesses as to who Vala would displace, and the first two don't count. Two women on SG-1? That would be more science fictional than anything that's happened on the show. I don't know about you but the "ValaValaVala, nobody but Vala" clamor makes me deeply uneasy.

Do you all really think this? Do you think that TPTB would actually tell Amanda that we are now reducing your character to recurring even if she wanted to return in season 10 as a regular, and make Vala a regular? Do you really believe that they would do this to AT? If so, then what you are saying is they could care less about her work on the show for nine years and that they really have no respect for her and do not see her contribution to the success of the show over the years. Maybe they don't---but I find that hard to believe.

If you look at the fan pole on Vala, a minority voted for having Vala as a regular even if she replaced a current cast member. And even the problem with these votes (33%) is that it is not clear that everyone who voted felt that if Vala were a regular that someone would have to be replaced. But in reality, it doesn't matter what the fans want anyway!


JM commented about adding a new cast member means substracting someone else when a poor soul asked about poor Jonas being on Atlantis. I wonder how true this is given that they got two new characters on Atlantis when they reduced Ford to recurring.

The point is, why are we assuming that because TPTB love Vala, that they don't like Sam? That's what I don't get in these comments. Why is there competition stirred for the female actresses, and not for the male actors. Why not get rid of Teal'c or make him recurring since he isn't doing much anyway (I don't really believe this, but why no competition between the male actors).

[Carterslave]

Personally, I actually considered the promotion to head of R&D to be a wonderful career move for Sam and I honestly can't image why should would take a step backwards in her career to be 2IC on SG-1 again. It really doesn't make any sense to me. But you see, I think all the vagueness is just the writers way of not really wanting to put anything in stone so that at any given moment they can just change the storyline to fit their needs. We can't hold them to their word for anything this season, because really they haven't told us anything.

I'd like to believe that the reason we didn't see Sam much in tonight's episode is because Sam never stepped down from her position in R&D. She is still very much a part of R&D and that she's just doing it from the SGC now. It's also one of the only reasons I will believe that she wasn't worried about taking a step backwards in her career to be a part of SG-1; because in my mind she didn't. She's just adding her skill and experience to help out with SG-1 when it's necessary.
And as far as the leadership issue being resolved, I honestly do not see that happening at all this season. I do not see SG-1 working as a team like they did when Jack was in command nor do I see Mitchell ever truly taking on the lead position like Jack did. The relationships are all different now.

There's been copious snippage to save space but I agree w/ almost everything ForeverSg1. Sharp observations. (But comparing Mitchell to Jonas ... Ouch! Now there's a low blow.) Sam's move to R&D was logical (if ill-explained), her return to SG-1 less so—and not explained whatsoever. I'll go with Forever's fanwank that Sam is a kind of senior adviser or emeritus professor, if you like, to SG-1, being sort of the brains behind the scenes while Mitchell handles the "boots on the ground" stuff. And have Cassandra's "problems" miraculously evaporated? What's up w/ that storyline. (I'm 100% certain "Not exactly" was meant to imply that S/J was a happenin' thing, but you'd say anything you'd like of if the oleaginous Barrett was oozing his way in your direction, wouldn't you?)

[chocdoc]

I usually watch the new Friday night eps with a group of people. One is a Jack/Daniel shipper (and huge Farscape/BB fan), and two are are team fans who aren't really into fandom and wouldn't understand the term "shipping." And then there's me, a rabid AT/Sam fan.

I think it's pretty telling that last night during Babylon, we devolved into picking out all the logic faults, questionable holes in the plot, and silly lines throughout the episode. The tone was decidedly light, but snarky, and it was clearly apparent that we were entertaining ourselves because the show was not entertaining us. It's sad when a group of people start laughing because Teal'c and Daniel are trying to hide behind 8 inch grass clumps when there are trees around that might possibly provide better cover.

We're a pretty diverse group of people who look for different things out of the show, and after much discussion during SGA commercials, it became apparent that none of us are very satisfied with the season so far. To my mind, there have been two fairly decent episodes so far, EDM and Beachhead, but SGA has been beating SG-1 consistently in terms of getting me involved in the story. For a multitude of reasons (many of which have been eloquently presented on this thread), SG-1 is not clicking this season.

I suppose the next comments may contain potential spoilers...

Spoiler:

I blame the writers for this. The actors are doing as good a job as they possibly can. BB is doing great with Cam, but I can't help but be annoyed with the character when they write scenes for him like they did at the beginning of Babylon. I wanted Teal'c to smack him. If I had been Teal'c, I would have smacked him. Cam wants to learn from the best, so you might think he would pay attention when Teal'c asked him to be quiet. As it is, the writers made him look like an ass.

Same with the new CMO. She came across as petulant and sulky, and it makes me wonder how long they plan to drag this antagonism out between her and Landry. I know the writers intend it to add drama and mystery to the new characters, but I just find it irritating. I desperately want to LIKE these new people, but it's hard to do when I'm not seeing a whole lot to like...

At the end, I asked if anyone was surprised by the supposed plot twist. Nope, everyone saw it coming a mile away, even the two people who had no exposure to any sort of spoilers. In comparison, Battlestar Galactica had a plot twist that took us all by surprise. That's the difference between good writing and bad writing.

Even my Jack/Daniel shipper friend bemoaned the fact that Sam was on screen for such a short time. "Wow, Sam didn't have much of a roll tonight, did she? You'd think they could have given her a few more lines." And I don't think she was just being sympathetic to me.

Sorry for sounding negative, but I'm feeling negative, and while I haven't given up hope for things coming together at some point in the future, last night did a lot to dampen my optimism. TPTB have made poor choices this season, IMO, and I'm really losing hope that they'll turn it around anytime soon. I do hope they prove me wrong.

I almost didn't post anything about the episode because I knew I couldn't do it without going on a rant, but I really needed to vent. Thanks for bearing with me.

Feel completely the same way. So many have written such thoughtful posts about the episode. I hope you are all posting this in the Bablyon thread--I would love for JM to read all these great comments.

[ChopinGal]

... I'll go with Forever's fanwank that Sam is a kind of senior adviser or emeritus professor, if you like, to SG-1, being sort of the brains behind the scenes while Mitchell handles the "boots on the ground" stuff. And have Cassandra's "problems" miraculously evaporated? What's up w/ that storyline. (I'm 100% certain "Not exactly" was meant to imply that S/J was a happenin' thing, but you'd say anything you'd like if the oleaginous Barrett was oozing his way in your direction, wouldn't you?)

Jester, taking another stiff drink, heads for the royal dictionary and discovers that Agent Barrett is an oily son-of-a-gun ... Holy Hannah ... slimy fawning parasite ... methinks this is going to be a long night!

[Carterslave]

Do you all really think this? Do you think that TPTB would actually tell Amanda that we are now reducing your character to recurring even if she wanted to return in season 10 as a regular, and make Vala a regular? Do you really believe that they would do this to AT?

They did worse to Teryl Rothery.

JM commented about adding a new cast member means substracting someone else when a poor soul asked about poor Jonas being on Atlantis. I wonder how true this is given that they got two new characters on Atlantis when they reduced Ford to recurring.

It all boils down to sexism, which still runs strong in show bidness. Also, the pressure to bring on Vala to the max isn't coming from TPTB but rather from fanboards and critics, who are making a full-court press on the matter. Do I think they'd do it to AT? Well, let's just say I don't think it's coincidental that she recently gave an interview saying she & MS would like to stay on the show for its duration. She's a savvy creature & probably meant to put a message out there.
The question about Jonas was, why couldn't Jonas *and* Daniel continue as regulars on SG-1? Hence Mallozzi's reply, although it was broadly worded enough so as to apply (deliberately?) to forward-looking events, not just things that happened back in S6-7. Interpreting Joe is like reading tea leaves, but I sensed a veiled message/threat/warning in his remarks.
Although Atlantis subtracted a regular (Ford) and added two, Jason Momoa wasn't in the first few episodes and Paul McG. was a regular in all but name during S1, so the budget may have felt little or no effect from the change. Neither of them is likely to command as many $$ at this point as Claudia Black.

[minigeek]

Oh and if you like what I wrote there, you'll LOVE what I wrote here: http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=17191

Thanks for the link Uber, that whole Carter/Mitchell command bullcrap really really bends me backward as well. I've gone in to add my voice too. I think we need some support from Sam in there! Think I'd get away with posting photographic backup?



M.G.

[Carterslave]

So what I need to know is...A. Will Region 1 DVDs have audio commentaries and B. If yes, will these audio commentaries include Citizen Joe and Threads????

That's a question for Ivan Bartok's blog.

[ChopinGal]

Thanks for the link Uber, that whole Carter/Mitchell command bullcrap really really bends me backward as well. I've gone in to add my voice too. I think we need some support from Sam in there! Think I'd get away with posting photographic backup?



M.G.

Jester is now downing her third martini!!!!

[chocdoc]

Jester is now downing her third martini!!!!

Good idea. I'll join you!

[Dani76]

Ouch, all this speculation about TPTB replacing Sam with Vala has really gotten to me. I know it's just speculation, but just the thought of it makes me want to...
I was always worried that AT might decide it was time for a change, but this is just a horrible idea. And the worst part is that we cannot be sure that they wouldn't actually do it.
Thanks for opening up the Royal Bar, CG, I can certainly use one or two or...

[chocdoc]

They did worse to Teryl Rothery.


It all boils down to sexism, which still runs strong in show bidness. Also, the pressure to bring on Vala to the max isn't coming from TPTB but rather from fanboards and critics, who are making a full-court press on the matter. Do I think they'd do it to AT? Well, let's just say I don't think it's coincidental that she recently gave an interview saying she & MS would like to stay on the show for its duration. She's a savvy creature & probably meant to put a message out there.
The question about Jonas was, why couldn't Jonas *and* Daniel continue as regulars on SG-1? Hence Mallozzi's reply, although it was broadly worded enough so as to apply (deliberately?) to forward-looking events, not just things that happened back in S6-7. Interpreting Joe is like reading tea leaves, but I sensed a veiled message/threat/warning in his remarks.
Although Atlantis subtracted a regular (Ford) and added two, Jason Momoa wasn't in the first few episodes and Paul McG. was a regular in all but name during S1, so the budget may have felt little or no effect from the change. Neither of them is likely to command as many $$ at this point as Claudia Black.

Well, I know what you mean about Teryl Rothery, but it is a bit of a different situation. (By the way I want Frazier back--I'm not warming up to Lam at all, but I'm trying). She was recurring and they really did think that season 7 was ending when they wrote Heroes. Not a good reason I know, but I really think they didn't expect SG1 to keep getting renewed. Also in this case, AT is a regular and they know they are probably coming back for season 10.

In regard to fanboards and critics. Critics first---Well I haven't read anything negative about AT at all. Yes CB is popular with critics, but no offense to CB or BB, but how good are the critics at predicting a success of a show?!!! I mean--I'd stay away from Matt Roush from TV Guide--He liked farscape, but it made it only 4 seasons. He likes BSG, but the ratings have really plummeted! So I'm not sure TPTB should just go with what critics say. If they had, SG1 should have died long ago.

Fanboards---well I don't see a majority by any stretch of the imagination for fans clamoring to have Vala as as regular and Sam gone. I don't see that at all. I do think alot of fans like Vala/CB, and so do I, but not at the expense of Sam. Why was Beachhead the most likeed episode so far? Well I think it is partly due to fans wanting sam back, and well Brad Wright wrote it and it had some really good scifi in it---thank goodness. So, yes I think most fans want to see Vala back, but I don't think this equates to replacing Sam.

What do others think? I do agree that sexism does still run strong in show business though---you got be there.

[minigeek]

Hey, I won't go into any gory details about my opinions on "Babylon". Suffice it to say I was rewriting it in my head while I was watching it. But the thought occured to me:

Spoiler:

The Jaffa have always been equal-opportunity when it comes to the women among their ranks. How cool could the storyline have been if it had been Carter who was kidnapped, and not Mitchell? Change nothing else about the way he was taught to fight, the 'lessons' supposedly learned, etc etc. Don't you guys think it'd have been a wicked episode? I thought so. The whole concept was cliche and tired (done and done before), but if it was a woman in there ... that could have made the entire story a lot spicier. In my humble opinion, of course. I think Amanda might have done amazing work with an opportunity like that.

Ah, shoulda, coulda, woulda ...

M.G.