S/J Friendly Debate

[RepliCartertje]

When I look at Sam and Jack I see two highly decorated members of the USA's airforce on the verge of a highly illegal relationship which would at the very least spell the end to one or both career and would give lots of fuel to those who want to bar women from a place in the military due to the mistaken idea that any unit with a woman in it will lead to trouble and inappropriate behaviour. And even if one or the other retired, the accusations would still fly.

<snip>

FF

It is true that it is against the regs but it is not like they are in a relationship toghether... they both know that they can be togheter of that... that is what it makes so nice the fact that they can be toghether and that the little thing... a touch, a look, a smile,... so much more interesting... You know they love eachother they have said it but... the fact that they can be toghether is great... Ok I do want them togheter at the end but now it is nice to see them the way they are... and if they really love eachother (and they do) they will find a solution to be toghether... no matter what.
they are just so mend for eachother

[AmberLM]

When I look at Sam and Jack I see two highly decorated members of the USA's airforce on the verge of a highly illegal relationship which would at the very least spell the end to one or both career and would give lots of fuel to those who want to bar women from a place in the military due to the mistaken idea that any unit with a woman in it will lead to trouble and inappropriate behaviour. And even if one or the other retired, the accusations would still fly.

What fans do in fanfiction and with their own creativity is entirely up to them, I encourage and applaud them in whatever they enjoy doing and remain convinced that they do a better job than those running the show.

FF

I take your point about the rumours. It will inevitably happen if any future relationship were ever to become public knowledge. That's why I think that if anything happens on that front it should be low-key and discreet. I mean, short of tapping phones and hiring a PI, I see no reason why anyone apart from Hammond, Cassie, Daniel and Teal'c need to know. If it's not illegal

Spoiler:

I'm thinking that loophole between the time that Sam was transferred to R&D and the time Jack was promoted to Head of Homeworld security, for example

and it doesn't present any threat to "unit cohesion" or whatever it is that the regs state then I don't see why not comment on it in the show.

Of course, as you can see from my sig, I may just be a *teensy* bit biased!

[Frostfox]

I take your point about the rumours. It will inevitably happen if any future relationship were ever to become public knowledge. That's why I think that if anything happens on that front it should be low-key and discreet. I mean, short of tapping phones and hiring a PI, I see no reason why anyone apart from Hammond, Cassie, Daniel and Teal'c need to know. If it's not illegal

Spoiler:

I'm thinking that loophole between the time that Sam was transferred to R&D and the time Jack was promoted to Head of Homeworld security, for example

and it doesn't present any threat to "unit cohesion" or whatever it is that the regs state then I don't see why not comment on it in the show.

Of course, as you can see from my sig, I may just be a *teensy* bit biased!

I don't blame the characters, I blame the writers for mucking about with the idea of a relationship between them.
But in reality, not in a TV show, it would just be a bad thing to happen, even after they are no longer on the same team and it would be miserable for a couple to have to go through life keeping their relationship a guilty secret. Even if they "came out" a few years down the line, Sam's career would be shot and all her promotions while Jack was her CO would be suspect. But I don't think the writers considered that when they started to make things concrete, if they had left it ambiguous, it would not have arisen.

FF

[AmberLM]

I don't blame the characters, I blame the writers for mucking about with the idea of a relationship between them.
But in reality, not in a TV show, it would just be a bad thing to happen, even after they are no longer on the same team and it would be miserable for a couple to have to go through life keeping their relationship a guilty secret. Even if they "came out" a few years down the line, Sam's career would be shot and all her promotions while Jack was her CO would be suspect. But I don't think the writers considered that when they started to make things concrete, if they had left it ambiguous, it would not have arisen.

FF

Ya know I did think about that when Jack's first order of business as Head of the SGC was to promote Sam. I have a feeling that's why the writers made a big deal of saying "By order of the President of the United States" although I suppose Sam needed to be promoted in order to lead SG-1. (BTW, I'm not saying she didn't completely deserve the promotion because she did!)

[Frostfox]

Ya know I did think about that when Jack's first order of business as Head of the SGC was to promote Sam. I have a feeling that's why the writers made a big deal of saying "By order of the President of the United States" although I suppose Sam needed to be promoted in order to lead SG-1. (BTW, I'm not saying she didn't completely deserve the promotion because she did!)

Oh, I agree with the promotion, she certainly deserved that (you've got to remember that I am anti Sam and Jack because I like Sam, not because I dislike her).
But, human nature being what it is, it would have been the talk of the watercooler and as it was Jack's first official act, you know what people would be saying. I'd rather Sam be percieved to get her promotions off her own merit, rather than getting favour for being Jack's favourite or Jack's woman. Cesar's wife must be beyond reproach and all that.

FF

[AmberLM]

Oh, I agree with the promotion, she certainly deserved that (you've got to remember that I am anti Sam and Jack because I like Sam, not because I dislike her).
But, human nature being what it is, it would have been the talk of the watercooler and as it was Jack's first official act, you know what people would be saying. I'd rather Sam be percieved to get her promotions off her own merit, rather than getting favour for being Jack's favourite or Jack's woman. Cesar's wife must be beyond reproach and all that.

FF

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that you don't like Sam, I meant to make sure that nobody thought *I* hated Sam - lol! And I agree with you BTW. Sam, the character BEFORE Sam, the WAG ALWAYS!

(FYI - "WAG" is a British tabloid term for 'Wives And Girlfriends', it's a football thing!)

[Frostfox]

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that you don't like Sam, I meant to make sure that nobody thought *I* hated Sam - lol! And I agree with you BTW.

Oh, I didn't think you did. It's just that there is a general perception that slash fans (not that one would get that idea from my sig ) don't like S/J because the like J/D or because they don't like Sam. In my case, it's not the reason I dislike that particular ship.

FF

[AmberLM]

Oh, I didn't think you did. It's just that there is a general perception that slash fans (not that one would get that idea from my sig ) don't like S/J because the like J/D or because they don't like Sam. In my case, it's not the reason I dislike that particular ship.

FF

Lol, talk about my rose-tinted specs, I hadn't even noticed your sig, nevermind speculate on why you aren't a Sam/Jack shipper!

[Frostfox]

Lol, talk about my rose-tinted specs, I hadn't even noticed your sig, nevermind speculate on why you aren't a Sam/Jack shipper!

Civilised debate is always fun though, I cut my fannish teeth on Usenet where arguing your corner was an art form.
We're not going to agree on the basic principal, wether the S/J ship is a good thing or not but there is nothing to stop us enjoying the discussion.

FF

[Rachel500]

Having enjoyed the chemistry and Sam/Jack 'moments'/hints in Seasons 1-3, I think if someone had asked me at the beginning of Season 4 whether I would want it to be made explicit in an episode that Sam and Jack had feelings for each other I would have said yes - and Divide and Conquer was a fantastic episode as were Windows of Opportunity and Entity.

However, if I knew then what I know now, I think I would have said to keep the ambiguity for a while longer and let the audience interpret for themselves any chemistry or 'moments' like in the previous seasons. I don't think TPTB did themselves any favours making it explicit so early in the show's run - although to be fair to them I guess even they couldn't have predicted SG1 would still be around for Season 10.

What they ended up with was a mess. They annoy those who don't want to see any ship and have had to tone down the ship they introduced in order to stay true to the honourability of the characters given the situation with the regs and their careers. The result has been when the show hasn't given any ship, the shippers feel cheated and when it concentrates on Sam/Jack it can often detract from the original team feel of the show (and I say this as someone who enjoys the ship). Anyway, its a no-win situation for TPTB because of the decision they took in Season 4.

With Season 10, I have to say that I think its time they resolved it unambiguously one way or another and took the resultant flames from the group they upset. That way if Sam/Jack are together they can go back to the nice hints/moments (which would still be possible even with RDA gone most of the time) rather than outright shippiness and concentrate just as they would if they're not, with developing the relationships between all of the characters currently in the SG1 team and not just one pairing.

[AmberLM]

Civilised debate is always fun though, I cut my fannish teeth on Usenet where arguing your corner was an art form.
We're not going to agree on the basic principal, wether the S/J ship is a good thing or not but there is nothing to stop us enjoying the discussion.

FF

Yeah, exactly! What Frostfox said!

[Dani347]

Okay, joining in. I'm going to attempt to tone down the venom I have towards this pairing, but since I can be passionate at the keyboard, I'd like to start off with some disclaimers. Any negativity or harshness I have is directed at a fictional romance towards fictional characters who can't get hurt by what I say. Also, the writing, but that's not about the people, but their work, so it's fair game imo. My thoughts are not intended to upset the fans of the ship.

So, that's out of the way. Now, a few disagreements I have to some things said here. First, I've never heard either Jack or Sam actually say they love each other. Not to each other or to anyone else about each other. I've seen the writers very carefully leave out those words. And, while I have no doubt that they mean for me to believe it, I find it interesting the way they dance around it while being blatantly obvious about what they're saying at the same time. Maybe I should give tptb credit for doing two things at once. Sam always started to say something at the most inopportune time and then got cut off before any actual declarations could be made. Or, when someone else mentioned it (never saying, "I can see how in love you two are" or "I can see how much you love him," but always "I can see the special relationship you two have" or something else that doesn't say the words) she always replied as to how much she respected him or cared about him as a friend or her boss or as a hero of Earth or some such but quickly deflected it with "If I have feelings, we can't do anything." And, the most blatant declaration (the awful -sorry, it's how I feel- D&C) still is put in terms that I say could easily have been said about either Daniel or Teal'c, or that Daniel or Teal'c could have said about either one of them or each other without implying feelings of romantic love. Caring about someone more than you should is not exclusively synonomous with being in love. So, why couldn't they actually have either person say the words? They could easily have justified it the same way they justify what they have let them say, that they're not doing anything.

As far as the justification that nothing can happen, I can't think how that would satisfy either shippers or non shippers. The hints are much too blatant to ignore so just because nothing officially has happened, it's there, you can't help seeing it. It's like someone backs you into a corner and keeps coming at you with a knife, and even if they never actually break skin, I don't think you'd be able to just ignore it. And, I can't imagine that shippers would find it all that pleasing either. I mean, they've been told that the show sponsors this ship. That this is in fact an official pairing, not something that fans just see. And, yet, they're told again and again that nothing can happen, no moving forward, until maybe possibly who knows one day in the far far future once things are different and the actual storyline of the show is no longer an issue. I don't know, but for me, the way they've done it would be just as annoying if I was shipper as it has been for me as an anti shipper.

[Lesleyp]

I don't blame the characters, I blame the writers for mucking about with the idea of a relationship between them.
But in reality, not in a TV show, it would just be a bad thing to happen, even after they are no longer on the same team and it would be miserable for a couple to have to go through life keeping their relationship a guilty secret. Even if they "came out" a few years down the line, Sam's career would be shot and all her promotions while Jack was her CO would be suspect. But I don't think the writers considered that when they started to make things concrete, if they had left it ambiguous, it would not have arisen.

FF

Actually I read the US airforce regulations on fraternization. They just don't deal with intimacy, they deal with friendships in the same manner between a superior and insubordinates. The occasional dinner or group activity would not be an issue, however, vacations and ongoing social encounters between O'Neill and any/all members of his team would've landed him in hot water. That's the diff. between reality and TV.

As for a relationship between O'Neill and Sam now. According to the Regs. it is possible, however she would still need to address him as 'Sir' when they are in uniform, on a base, on duty, or any official function. Expected behaviour is clearly layed out for married officers of differing ranks. It is true they would not be allowed to serve in the same unit, nor could he be involved in any evaluation of her performance, but her career would not suffer. Nor would it need to be a secret.

So nuthin's impossible.