Shipping: More than Just a Casual Pastime?

[Seshat]

So, is it TPTB interaction making for attention grabbing behaviour or could it be the accessibility of fandom, especially to less mature fans increases the likelihood of militancy? Or have they always been around, and of much more varied age range, and been present before fandom went online?

VERY interesting questions to consider, Purpleyin! I plucked this one out of your post to discuss because it intrigued me the most.

I think that the suggestion that TPTB interaction with internet fans could be creating or expanding more militant fan behavior is a very interesting one. I think it could be an unintentional side effect of drumming up PR for the show. I look at it this way: in politics it is still considered a good idea to get out and slap hands, to meet in person (at a chicken dinner, a weenie roast, or a $500-a-plate buffet) as many average constituents as possible at crucial times in an election year, or when popularity ratings drop, because this truly impersonal action of shaking the hands of lots of average guys gives them a sense that the politician cares about them individually. You and I know that as individuals we are just a blur of faces to the politician, we couldn't possibly make any real impact on them this way, but we treat it as special when our candidate comes to town and feel honored to have stood next to them at a photo op or even to have been smiled at by them (sounds eerily like a scifi con, doesn't it? LOL And I'm not knocking cons, in fact I'm going to my very first one in March ). There's a lot to be said about the power of belonging to a "group" or a "cause", as well.

Many of us here have had some kind of interaction with ones of the show's PTB, just by participating here. Didn't it make you feel just a bit more special to be singled out with an answer to one of your questions in a Q&A Thread, or get a PM from one of these guys answering some point you were discussing or even just thanking you for your interest? Didn't you get a slight fleeting sense of a deeper connection to the show because of it? But YOU realized that it was all just public relations...a way to garner affection and loyalty for their product. It means nothing in the scheme of things, but it inflates our egos just a little, and that little emphasis has a very deep psychological effect on people.

The point I am going for here is that the militant sees this tiny interaction as confirmation of their opinion/choice/preferences. They begin to get a sense of power because Joe or Martin or Bruce actually talked to them...and they start to think that they can direct the focus of the show because "they are being listened to and so MUST be right", ignoring the fact that these guys have sent hundreds of PMs to fans of all kinds, and that they are not looking for validation on their end, they are simply promoting an existing product. It's their JOB to be seen favorably and attract as many people as possible, they certainly aren't coming here to chase fans away.

The difference is that you and I perhaps feel that little boost from the "impersonal personal connection" and understand it, but maybe the militant doesn't process things the same way as we do. It adds fuel to their fire of righteousness, whereas we just smile and say "gee, that was entertaining, but meaningless".

[KatG]

Thus bringing up the question, do militants ever lose interest in their cause? What happens to them then? Is a bully a bully forever?

Yes. A militant shipper, will always be a militant shipper, they just change fandoms, and make everyone in the new fandom miserable.

[KatG]

However none of these points answer the question that I want answered, which is why does ship become such a passion for a few that they become militant?
For example, I used to ship for Sam/Jack, but I couldn't have cared less if others thought it was silly, stupid or a waste of time. It was a bit of frothy fun to me. Why wasn't I offended if others didn't enjoy it or see it?

I think that those who become militant about a ship, tend to be militant about other aspects of their lives. They tend to have to always be right, because to not be right, would mean (in their mind) that there is something inherently wrong with them, and this they cannot accept.

Me personally, I don't need anyone to agree with me. I know that Sam and Jack are together. Can't help it if other people are delusional.

[Seshat]

I think that those who become militant about a ship, tend to be militant about other aspects of their lives. They tend to have to always be right, because to not be right, would mean (in their mind) that there is something inherently wrong with them, and this they cannot accept.

Me personally, I don't need anyone to agree with me. I know that Sam and Jack are together. Can't help it if other people are delusional.

LOL! It's good you can be so objective like that...

Seriously though, I think you are right that some folks will automatically feel very challenged by views opposing their own, and others will just as easily listen and accept another's viewpoint and feel no threat whatsoever.

I like to think of myself as tolerant, but that doesn't mean that I don't have firm beliefs and strong views about lots of things. Sometimes I wonder if militants think that I must be wrong because I am not willing to stand up and fight for my opinions on each and every issue. I often feel a fight is just not going to be productive to my day (whereas a discussion like this one warms my heart no end ), and I don't understand why someone thinks they can change my mind by telling me that I am stupid to have X opinion when they think Y. IMO insulting people for having personal preferences is not an effective persuasion tool...LOL

But then I enjoy looking at a topic from all sides, even the ones I don't agree with. This adds enormously to my enjoyment of the show. I try really hard (and yes, I fail miserably sometimes to my shame ) to be as respectful as possible so that folks feel they can share any of their thoughts with me. I don't want to bash anyone for their beliefs, just as I don't want to be bashed for mine.

Just coming here to GW gives me a great sense of community and acceptance. Other Stargate fans - how cool is that?! I don't need every poster here to agree with my views to feel validated.

[Linzi]

LOL! It's good you can be so objective like that...

Seriously though, I think you are right that some folks will automatically feel very challenged by views opposing their own, and others will just as easily listen and accept another's viewpoint and feel no threat whatsoever.

I like to think of myself as tolerant, but that doesn't mean that I don't have firm beliefs and strong views about lots of things. Sometimes I wonder if militants think that I must be wrong because I am not willing to stand up and fight for my opinions on each and every issue. I often feel a fight is just not going to be productive to my day (whereas a discussion like this one warms my heart no end ), and I don't understand why someone thinks they can change my mind by telling me that I am stupid to have X opinion when they think Y. IMO insulting people for having personal preferences is not an effective persuasion tool...LOL

But then I enjoy looking at a topic from all sides, even the ones I don't agree with. This adds enormously to my enjoyment of the show. I try really hard (and yes, I fail miserably sometimes to my shame ) to be as respectful as possible so that folks feel they can share any of their thoughts with me. I don't want to bash anyone for their beliefs, just as I don't want to be bashed for mine.

Just coming here to GW gives me a great sense of community and acceptance. Other Stargate fans - how cool is that?! I don't need every poster here to agree with my views to feel validated.

I feel the same way. I come here to discuss Stargate topics with like-minded fans. Ie, those who enjoy the shows and want to discuss various aspects of them. Obviously I have different likes and dislikes to others, and vice versa. When a discussion like this occurs I feel satisfied as there has been no animosity and much 'food for thought' has been bandied around.
You're right about needing to feel a sense of comminity and acceptance for my love of all things Stargate - that's why I joined here. It is difficult to talk to friends about Stargate if they are not scifi fans and don't watch either show! My family watches them and will tolerate my blabbing on to a certain extent, but after a while they obviously want to move on to new subjects and gag me!
I too enjoy listening to differing points of view, and certainly don't expect everybody to agree with me, we can't all be the same, can we?
I think you've hit the nail on the head when you talk of tolerance. I endeavour to show tolerance and understanding even if I strongly disagree with somebody over something, but I can't say a few other posters even try to do this.
I'm so enjoying this discussion!

[Forestia]

I wasn't really into shipping until I went on GW except for Jack/Sam. That's the only ship I really cared about. Now I like to follow a lot of them. On SGA I really don't follow one particular ship. I just like to observe the interactions of the characters and see if my shipper mind sees something extra Personally, I just think it's fun whether it's romance or a closer friendship that I see possibly developing. However, that is not the only reason I would watch the shows, nor would it be the only thing I ever talked about in regards to Stargate. That being said, I don't think there is anything wrong with being an avid shipper, as long as we realize that these are characters which can only act according to how TPTB want them to act and how far they want to take the characters. It's fine to get involved and root for a particular ship, but I don't think it should ever become such an obsession that people won't like the show simply because a certain relationship is not addressed, or doesn't go the way they wanted it. However, unfortunately this probably does (or will) happen I also think that no shipper should put down another shipper or say they are wrong for their preferences. We all have different opinions about the way things should be and it's not right to knock others because they don't have the same ideas about what are the best ships or who should be together no matter what, etc. Of course a difference of opinions is why we have different threads in the first place.

We are all here basically for the same reason. We love the shows and the characters and want to talk about them. Everyone should remember that and be respectful to others

[Madeleine]

Well, Michelle came here and challenged use of the word 'obsessive' and everyone is now discussing 'millitant' behaviour rather than 'obsessive' - but I'm not sure that I'd even criticise the millitants. I'd reserve my actual criticism for 'evangelical' behaviour instead.

You see, for a while I was a millitant noromo. I make no apologies, and I do not think I was nasty or out of line in my millitancy or my noromoness. I felt, then and now, that my stance was justified. At the time GW had a deserved reputation as a S/J haven, with which I had no problem at all, but it also had (in certain quarters) a reputation as a place unfriendly to anyone who shipped S or J with other characters or not at all. I didn't like GW having the hint of that reputation, but at times I felt that strong words were needed to keep that reputation at bay.

It was not uncommon for certain people to treat noromos as of no consequence whatsoever. The consensus amongst a small number of posters was that anyone claiming not to see S/J was lying, stupid, agenda-driven or all three; and therefore not worth paying attention to. And that anyone seeing but not enjoying S/J was a Bad Fan. Not many people were deliberately that discorteous; but coupled with the many who would say, in good faith, things like "S/J is so obvious everyone sees it" the minority who would have dismissed and disparaged the noromos were given that much more of a platform and that much more credence.

So at every opportunity I'd say "Actually, I don't see S/J and I'm NOT lying and here's why..."; or "I know you see S/J, but not everyone does". (Pretty millitant, right?) And most people, shippers included, accepted what I said, and the people who wanted me to admit that I [was watching the show wrong / was a closet slasher / was a troublemaker for not liking S/J / needed to have S/J carefully explained to me so that I could See The Light at last / whatever] gradually became less vocal, less evangelical.

I was aware, in times past, of many equally evangelical anti-S/Jers who were saying unkind equivalents such as "go and watch soap operas" and calling shippers "teenagers" and making claims of agendas and fanwanking; and I'm not necessarily the best person to confirm this, since I may be less sensitive when it comes from another direction but I think these people too have shut up their anti-fan behaviour. It's hard to tell cause from effect but I'm sure there's a link.

I know many shippers who were at that time pointedly shipping without criticising noromos or engaging in spats. Millitant ones, if you will, who were baying for TPTB to give them more ship, but NOT baying at those of us who didn't want it, NOT asking that we be silent and NOT implying that we were immoral or unhinged. And who were taking every opportunity to explain to the evangelical antis that they [didn't think S/J at all soapy / did like SF / weren't anti-Team / weren't making it all up / whatever]. I'm fine with that type of millitant shipper. The scary ones are the ones who see other fans with other tastes as The Unbelieving Heretical Enemy who need to be converted or silenced.

Evangelism begets counter-evangelism, and an excess of either can provoke rational beings into millitancy. In my case, I was able to stand down before much time had passed, but recently I've seen emergent evangelist behaviour in certain Atlantis threads, and emergent millitant behaviour in response - and I do have sympathy with the millitant behaviour.

[maxbo]

Purpleyin, you made several great points in what has to be the longest post I've ever read. Whew! You have stamina!

It's the attacking that makes it militant, like militant fans can't leave others who differ alone. They can't be satisfied with the simple fact they enjoy something, perhaps because it's not in their mind optional, it's there and anyone who isn't seeing it are the delusional ones, and if they don't enjoy what's on the show/in the books etc (regardless of claims about not seeing said element) then why are these other people even claiming to be fans? Hence it must seem reasonable to them, because everyone else is in a way just a strange sort of troll, who says they're a big fan but by the militants definition is far from one. There's quite often that vein of militant fans, for characters, ships or whatever, expressing that only they are true fans because they appreciate what's there and aren't denying an aspect of the fan media.

This perfectly describes the type of fan at issue here. It's not the passion or even the obsession that's the problem, it's how this passion/obsession is manifested. I love passionate/obsessive fans who use their obsession to enrich the fan community by such things as "running a fan site", etc., however, the militant fan doesn't offer anything positive to fandom.

And it's amusing to find running a fan site could be considered pretty fangirly... *blushes a little*

Then blush with pride because the hard work of fans like you who provide us with fan sites, etc. is appreciated because TPTB can only cover so much about our favorite characters. It's often up to the passionate/obsessive fan to pick up the slack.

I think one aspect is the idea of what people see as facts. Maybe it isn't so much a personal attack as they think people have it wrong.

And last thought for this post. On the idea of it as a security blanket mentioned. How would you feel if someone slagged off your fandom, or perhaps a better example for the emotional response, an actor that you thought tremendously talented? Well, how about if the ship for militant shippers was the integral part of their love for the show? Maybe that seems weird but if it is that thing that they focus on and then people are ignoring it, or questioning it, then I suppose it could well provoke such an upset. If you are taking something as a rock solid and someone comes along and is being blaise about it by comparision to your love/adoration/appreciation then it is in many ways like being slapped in the face.

Just trying to see the other side here, though I don't really agree that people should get militant about preferences in fandom. It's quite odd to consider people getting so worked up about a TV show etc, more so than they might over religion or politics, things that affect our everyday lives more profoundly. But maybe for those people who do get worked up that's because it's far more important to them than anything else practically. Why? I'm not sure, but it's conceivable that it is in some cases.

This is an impressive attempt to try to understand militant fans.

[maxbo]

Madeleine_W, I can see your point, but I don't consider those who are strongly pro or anti (shipping, characters, etc.) as militant. I reserve that definition only for those who attack others. I don't even have a problem with peachy, evangelical fans, as long as they don't try to rudely push others to believe what they believe. I've see many fans who only posts to talk about/defend/promote their favorites and as long as they don't attack others, I don't have a problem with their posts.

Obsessive, militant, evangelical, etc.... although it's probably impossible to find the definitive term to describe the disruptive fan, at least we seem to agree that they're not good for fandom.

About S/J, boy, can I relate to your experience. I've watched SG1 on and off for years and I had no idea that S/J had such a following until I entered the Stargate forums. I had no problem with those who passionately shipped them, I just didn't see it. In fact, on another forum, I even posted that I believed that TPTB had struck the perfect ship/non-ship balance with them because I believed that there was just enough to build a ship following, but not so much that it annoyed non/anti-shippers.

Needless to say, I was gently, but quite firmly, educated. It was an eye-opening experience to realize that no group was really satisfied with the writing for the S/J relationship.

[KatG]

According to dictionary.com

Militant:

adj. - Fighting or warring. Having a combative character; aggressive, especially in the service of a cause: a militant political activist.

n. - A fighting, warring, or aggressive person or party.

Evangelism:

n. - 1. zealous preaching and advocacy of the gospel
2. Militant zeal for a cause.

It seems to me that a militant and an evangelizer can be the same. However, one can be an evangelizer (as in the first definition) and not be militant, but still be considered obsessive. So to me, the term militant vs. obsessive would be a more apt comparison.

[ToasterOnFire]

Let's add to the shipper labeling confusion, shall we?

When I hear the term "obsessive shipper" I think of a shipper who is obsessed with their ship. I openly classify myself as an obsessive shipper - I spend a decent chunk of time making icons for my ship, reading ship fanfic, and overanalyzing my ship with fellow shippers. Being obsessive isn't necessarily a bad thing, and there are plenty of obsessed shippers out there who have fun with their ship without feeling the need to attack, question, or insult people who think differently.

When I hear the term "evangelical shipper" I think of a shipper who spreads the word, who talks about their ship all the time in as many threads as possible, even if off topic. Shippers who constantly ask TPTB about their ship could also be seen as this type of shipper. Evangelical shippers fall more in the gray area of good/bad - they aren't attacking others but constant ship talk in inappropriate areas detracts from discussions and may be viewed as an annoyance.

When I hear the term "militant shipper" I think of a shipper who has crossed the line and has attacked others who don't see or question their ship or who ship for another pairing. They don't really spread the shipping word like evangelical shippers, but they will go out of their way to insult posters who don't see things the way they do. I universally view such shippers in a bad light.


So I think one could be a casual shipper (which do exist! ), an obsessed shipper, a militant shipper, an evangelical shipper, or a militant evangelical shipper. Militant and evangelical shippers are by default obsessed shippers, unless they are hiding under the guise of a shipper and really just trolling.

Glad that cleared things up. Yeah...

[Seshat]

Let's add to the shipper labeling confusion, shall we?
...

Glad that cleared things up. Yeah...

Oh, you guys make me giggle so much! We are all trying so hard to be PC and get the terms just right so as not to offend anyone, which of course NONE of us wants to do...I love you all for giving it so much thought!

I like ToasterOnFire's definitions best of all. According to the latest deffos, although I am not a shipper I do qualify as an "obsessive fan" in general, as I don't preach Stargate to anyone but I spend a decent amount of time working/playing Stargate. It's the actions of the "militant shipper" that I find disturbing, in particular the attack/insult mode. But of course it's not just the militant shipper who exhibits these traits, we have plenty of "militant fans" in general who seem to enjoy bashing and smashing others of ANY differing viewpoint than their own just for fun.

So now that we have some pretty clear labels, can we go back to the WHYS? Why are fans so militant? What do they get out of this type of behavior? And do you think they can ever learn to back off enough to have a decent discussion without becoming angry/fighting/attacking?

[astronomicalchick]

Well, Michelle came here and challenged use of the word 'obsessive' and everyone is now discussing 'millitant' behaviour rather than 'obsessive' - but I'm not sure that I'd even criticise the millitants. I'd reserve my actual criticism for 'evangelical' behaviour instead.

You see, for a while I was a millitant noromo. I make no apologies, and I do not think I was nasty or out of line in my millitancy or my noromoness. I felt, then and now, that my stance was justified. At the time GW had a deserved reputation as a S/J haven, with which I had no problem at all, but it also had (in certain quarters) a reputation as a place unfriendly to anyone who shipped S or J with other characters or not at all. I didn't like GW having the hint of that reputation, but at times I felt that strong words were needed to keep that reputation at bay.

It was not uncommon for certain people to treat noromos as of no consequence whatsoever. The consensus amongst a small number of posters was that anyone claiming not to see S/J was lying, stupid, agenda-driven or all three; and therefore not worth paying attention to. And that anyone seeing but not enjoying S/J was a Bad Fan. Not many people were deliberately that discorteous; but coupled with the many who would say, in good faith, things like "S/J is so obvious everyone sees it" the minority who would have dismissed and disparaged the noromos were given that much more of a platform and that much more credence.

So at every opportunity I'd say "Actually, I don't see S/J and I'm NOT lying and here's why..."; or "I know you see S/J, but not everyone does". (Pretty millitant, right?) And most people, shippers included, accepted what I said, and the people who wanted me to admit that I [was watching the show wrong / was a closet slasher / was a troublemaker for not liking S/J / needed to have S/J carefully explained to me so that I could See The Light at last / whatever] gradually became less vocal, less evangelical.

I was aware, in times past, of many equally evangelical anti-S/Jers who were saying unkind equivalents such as "go and watch soap operas" and calling shippers "teenagers" and making claims of agendas and fanwanking; and I'm not necessarily the best person to confirm this, since I may be less sensitive when it comes from another direction but I think these people too have shut up their anti-fan behaviour. It's hard to tell cause from effect but I'm sure there's a link.

I know many shippers who were at that time pointedly shipping without criticising noromos or engaging in spats. Millitant ones, if you will, who were baying for TPTB to give them more ship, but NOT baying at those of us who didn't want it, NOT asking that we be silent and NOT implying that we were immoral or unhinged. And who were taking every opportunity to explain to the evangelical antis that they [didn't think S/J at all soapy / did like SF / weren't anti-Team / weren't making it all up / whatever]. I'm fine with that type of millitant shipper. The scary ones are the ones who see other fans with other tastes as The Unbelieving Heretical Enemy who need to be converted or silenced.

Evangelism begets counter-evangelism, and an excess of either can provoke rational beings into millitancy. In my case, I was able to stand down before much time had passed, but recently I've seen emergent evangelist behaviour in certain Atlantis threads, and emergent millitant behaviour in response - and I do have sympathy with the millitant behaviour.

I remember you on the S/J thread Madeleine! And you did a good job there. I only wish the ship threads that operate now had the benefit of your viewpoint because I think you did keep a lid on a lot of nonsense in that thread and stopped it spilling out into complete wank

[KatG]

Let's add to the shipper labeling confusion, shall we?

When I hear the term "obsessive shipper" I think of a shipper who is obsessed with their ship. I openly classify myself as an obsessive shipper - I spend a decent chunk of time making icons for my ship, reading ship fanfic, and overanalyzing my ship with fellow shippers. Being obsessive isn't necessarily a bad thing, and there are plenty of obsessed shippers out there who have fun with their ship without feeling the need to attack, question, or insult people who think differently.

When I hear the term "evangelical shipper" I think of a shipper who spreads the word, who talks about their ship all the time in as many threads as possible, even if off topic. Shippers who constantly ask TPTB about their ship could also be seen as this type of shipper. Evangelical shippers fall more in the gray area of good/bad - they aren't attacking others but constant ship talk in inappropriate areas detracts from discussions and may be viewed as an annoyance.

When I hear the term "militant shipper" I think of a shipper who has crossed the line and has attacked others who don't see or question their ship or who ship for another pairing. They don't really spread the shipping word like evangelical shippers, but they will go out of their way to insult posters who don't see things the way they do. I universally view such shippers in a bad light.


So I think one could be a casual shipper (which do exist! ), an obsessed shipper, a militant shipper, an evangelical shipper, or a militant evangelical shipper. Militant and evangelical shippers are by default obsessed shippers, unless they are hiding under the guise of a shipper and really just trolling.

Glad that cleared things up. Yeah...

This actually makes sense to me. Should I be scared?

[astronomicalchick]

Let's add to the shipper labeling confusion, shall we?

When I hear the term "obsessive shipper" I think of a shipper who is obsessed with their ship. I openly classify myself as an obsessive shipper - I spend a decent chunk of time making icons for my ship, reading ship fanfic, and overanalyzing my ship with fellow shippers. Being obsessive isn't necessarily a bad thing, and there are plenty of obsessed shippers out there who have fun with their ship without feeling the need to attack, question, or insult people who think differently.

When I hear the term "evangelical shipper" I think of a shipper who spreads the word, who talks about their ship all the time in as many threads as possible, even if off topic. Shippers who constantly ask TPTB about their ship could also be seen as this type of shipper. Evangelical shippers fall more in the gray area of good/bad - they aren't attacking others but constant ship talk in inappropriate areas detracts from discussions and may be viewed as an annoyance.

When I hear the term "militant shipper" I think of a shipper who has crossed the line and has attacked others who don't see or question their ship or who ship for another pairing. They don't really spread the shipping word like evangelical shippers, but they will go out of their way to insult posters who don't see things the way they do. I universally view such shippers in a bad light.


So I think one could be a casual shipper (which do exist! ), an obsessed shipper, a militant shipper, an evangelical shipper, or a militant evangelical shipper. Militant and evangelical shippers are by default obsessed shippers, unless they are hiding under the guise of a shipper and really just trolling.

Glad that cleared things up. Yeah...

My wee head hurts... but I think I know what you're saying...

I usually just classify it as "badly behaved shipper". I'm a bit of a shipper myself (or have been) but the way some shippers behave just makes me see red and put me off shipping.

I include behaviour like:

1. Attacking other shippers openlyand in public.
2. Being snide about other shippers and disrespectful of their point of view.
3. Artifically creating large post counts by "spamming"
4. Attacking an actor/actress repeatedly just because they're a member of another conflicting ship pairing.
5. Attacking a character repeatedly for the same reasons. Okay we don't always like characters and we can say so, but there comes a point when you know that the bashing is for shipper reasons and that's just pathetic.
6. Wittering on about ship in other threads other than ship threads (this is mostly personal point of view, I think shipping should be confined to ship threads in respect for non-shippers and other shippers who might feel nauseous at the thought of your ship).

I've seen no. 1, 3, 5 and 6 on GW. I've seen 2 and 4 in other arenas.

If shipping gets as low and pathetic as this, then I'd rather not ship at all.