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    Originally posted by Dream-a-Little
    Actually I think we might be making the case for why Mitchell as a character should be the leader of SG-1. (As a character, not as an actor. As an actor, Ben should be playing the leader of SG-1 because that’s what he was cast to play. Nuff Said!) The consensus on various boards that I have visited seems to be that Colonel P. is actually the one in command here due to the fact that he is the Commander of the vessel and no one gets to usurp his command while on his ship. This seems to be the case whether you are using Navel or Air force protocol and also based on a prior mission in a season 6 episode with Jack involving the Prometheus. Colonel P. also outranks both Mitchell and Carter. He is a full Colonel. And yet, both here and in Beachhead the writers create a situation where Colonel P. abdicates his authority and essentially creates a command vacuum.

    In Beachhead someone has to make a decision that is more than likely to be wrong, no matter which road you take. It’s not the kind of decision that you want to make if you can possibly get somebody else to do it. And here we do a round robin of pass the responsibility off to someone else. Colonel P. passes it to Sam, Sam then says she can’t make a call because she says she doesn’t have enough information to make the call and passes it to what looks like Daniel and Teal’c. (Sam is a scientist and is used to basing decisions on facts not supposition. Unfortunately, you are not always going to have the luxury of waiting for all the information to come in. Sometimes you are just going to have to go with what you have and fill in the blanks with intuition.)
    Mitchell then steps up and makes the decision and gives the order, because hey somebody has to and no one else was willing to take responsibility. In the end, it turned out to be the right one. They wouldn’t have been where they needed to be for Vala to intervene if they had retreated. But it could have easily gone the other way and it’s not the kind of decision anyone would want to have to make.

    Here in Ethon we repeat the pattern. We have an order that needs to be given. No one really disagrees that it has to be given, but who would really want to be the one to give it? You know if you are successful in your goal, that Daniel’s captors will most likely kill him in retaliation. Who wants to be the one that gives the order that sends Daniel home in a body bag? So once again Colonel P. abdicates authority and creates a command vacuum. He passes the buck to both Mitchell and Carter. We do the round robin bit, Mitchell looks to Carter, Carter looks to Teal’c (apparently joint command has now expanded to include Teal’c ) and Teal’c looks to Mitchell. Mitchell steps up and makes the decision and gives the order.

    So the writers have deliberately created a situation twice that illustrates why you must have a clear chain of command. They deliberately undermine their own stated solution to the command issue by illustrating why it doesn’t work. In the field you don’t have time to have a conference, come to a consensus or take a poll. Someone has to be in the position to make clear and decisive decisions. In Ethon we proved that a lack of a clear chain of command leads to failed missions and people die. If they really believe in or want joint command, then creating situations that show why it doesn’t work is really beyond pea brained.

    However, IMO what they are successfully illustrating here is a very clear reason why Mitchell as a character deserves to be leading SG-1. Mitchell should be leading SG-1 because in the end he is not afraid to make the hard decisions. The ones that no one else wants to make, the ones where there is no clear cut wrong or right or you may have to give an order that will cause a team mate to have to give his life in the line of duty. Because those are the kind of decisions that the leader of the front line SG team will quite often be facing and he’s proven that he can and will step up when others can’t or won’t. And maybe that’s the point their actually setting out to make here in both of these situations. If they insist on proving me wrong I am just going to have to dispair of them ever showing any sense or growing back certain body parts (male that is) that they seem to have let some fan groups cut off!
    Once again, I do hope that this is the case. What a convoluted way of going about the whole situation though. I can't really decide what would have been better for the character, to come in as undisputed military controller or show the subtleties of just why he's 'the chosen one'. It's true that whenever there's been a tough call, Mitchell is the one to take it. I've no doubt he's leader but Stargate is not used to subtleties and are usually beaten over the head with obviousness. This certainly is developing to be a whole new way of storytelling with Stargate PTB and in my view an absolute necessity. Now, I'm definitely intrigued to see how S10 develops

    Like you, I hope that we're not reading traits that these producers cannot live up to, that they have grown some and this is what they deliberately are portraying in their stories for this season. I must confess, it's certainly coming across that way. Too many subtle instances, as you've stated.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Dream-a-Little
      ...We have some subtle quiet lessons running through Ethon for Mitchell - his own instincts are much better than he has been giving them credit for, hesitating can be even more fatal than acting quickly and decisively, and Sam and Daniel aren’t always right...
      [I'm not sure why I picked that part to quote, I just didn't want to reprint the entire thing.]

      I think before I join the conversation here, I should watch the show again. Maybe a few more times. So if what I say doesn't make sense, chalk it up to the fact that I've only seen it once. [Which is why, although I'm thoroughly enjoying reading your comments, I haven't felt ready to respond. I'm still not ready, but here goes...]

      Anyway, what everyone is saying about Mitchell not firing right away is from when in the episode? Early on? Don't feel like you actually have to answer this, I'm sure I'll get it when I rewatch, but my point is...

      IF Mitchell had fired and destroyed the satellite weapon BEFORE we knew the president/whoever would give the order to destroy the Prometheous, wouldn't Mitchell then be getting all kinds of crap for again just rushing to do something? Wouldn't many fans be arguing that Daniel could have brokered a peaceful compromise and old hotheaded Mitchell just wanted to blow up stuff? Last episode he ran up the hill AND we KNOW he saved the day and he STILL got all kinds of crap for it. This time, he would have blown up the weapon and the audience would have had NO idea that the alternative would have resulted in many deaths and the destruction of the Prometheous. Wouldn't the fan backlash have been incredibly volatile? They'd be ready to hang Mitchell for once again reacting decisively - except they would have called it "acting rashly".

      So, instead he doesn't, and he gets crap for that, too. Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

      I like what Dream-A-Little said about this episode going back to the last episode and showing the impact of Mitchell's impetuousness vs. the hesitation the fans wanted last week, however, it seems that nobody got that. They're just crucifying him once again.

      Maybe when they film the episodes from here on out, they should show two endings.
      Ending Scenerio One: Mitchell waits for Sam and Daniel to climb the hill: Ship takes off. Teal'c, unable to kill Bra'tac, is killed by Ba'al. Then Ba'al kills Bra'tac.
      Ending Scenerio Two: Mitchell storms the hill and boards the ship and saves Teal'c and Bra'tac.
      Ending words on screen: We're using Scenerio Two, feel free to beeyotch about it, but know the consequences of what you wanted.

      This episode? We saw the consequences of what some people wanted last time. In essence, we got Scenerio One, and still they complain -- because they DID see the result of Scenerio One. Hindsight is 20/20.

      If they had shown Mitchell being decisive in this episode, the audience wouldn't have known what it saved and they would have complained that he was being impulsive and... whatever.

      Okay, if this doesn't make sense or I'm misreading the discussion, please let me know and I'll delete it.

      Mitchell should be leading SG-1 because in the end he is not afraid to make the hard decisions.... And maybe that’s the point their actually setting out to make here in both of these situations.
      But if it is, and I hope it is, I don't think many fans will make the connection. And unless we are shown the alternative of Mitchell's decisiveness, he will be ridiculed.

      I'm not attacking your post, because I believe you are right: In the context of the show as "reality", they have shown that Mitchell's decisiveness is needed. But from the viewpoint of the anti-Mitchell fans and without the benefit of the alternative results, he will be raked over the coals.
      Last edited by ChillinTheMost; 08 February 2006, 06:52 AM.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Anya
        I hope you're right. If we trust the PTB, then they meant to do this

        Over on the Terra Firma board, ixchup pointed to a filler written by Cofax http://cofax7.livejournal.com/312111.html?#cutid1 that really made the episode for me, which is weird, since I don't normally read fanfic, but this one seems to be a perfect ending to Ethon.
        That was very good. Thank you, Anya.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Kas
          Edited your post just for length:

          Excellent analysis and I surely hope that TPTB were deliberately aiming for something along these lines. You do a great character analysis that really does fit with all that we have learned of Mitchell in the last episodes. I guess, the botton line is, I don't associate these writers or show with such in depth, profound subtleties of continuing character involvement. They certainly haven't gone this route before and perhaps half of the changes this year where we have almost a season length arc, character development etc is due to the influences of shows such as Galactica, Lost, Farscape... although the writing can't compete (JMO), I'm so glad if this is the case... that this is what a change of lead with such an actor as Ben can accomplish.

          His influences and beliefs in continuing character development and actions having to be seen to be having an effect certainly seems to be 'rubbing off'. It looks as though I shall really have to be looking deeper into these episodes now.

          Thanks Dream-A-Little... wonderful post.
          These writers really don’t do long term, subtle character development. And I don’t think we are seeing some kind of profound change in creative approach, although I wish we were. I think what we are seeing here is really about necessity rather than creativity. IMO, Mitchell in the first part of the season was written as a nice, low key, easy going, more passive character because that was more conducive to keeping him in the background and causing as few dust ups as possible. Early season Mitchell was designed as someone easy to wallpaper and kept out from under foot. Their past experience with creating a character to replace an orginal character did not go well.
          These are writers who seem to think that the best way to deal with something difficult is to put off doing so as long as possible. The leadership issue and creating a character to replace an original character were both things that I feel fell in that category for them.

          Right about the time you get to filming Stronghold is right about the time that they would have gotten the ratings results for the first 3 or 4 episodes of season nine. (And based on spoilers that were attributed to audition sides, Mitchell’s part in Stronghold seemed to be rewritten at the last minute.) The ratings were good enough over a long enough period of time to tell them that they were still in the game. If they hadn’t been, then I think Mitchell would have stayed a passive character just along for the ride trailing along behind the other characters as they faded out of existence. This was a problem that they could have avoided dealing with altogether.But if they are still in the game and are going to keep going as a show you can’t keep putting off the hard stuff. It has to be dealt with; even this risk avoidance group would have realized that. Now you have to start approaching Mitchell as a character that is designed to function constructively within the show. He just doesn’t do that as a passive character. And even they are smart enough to know that you can’t just go from passive to active with no apparent rhyme or reason for doing so.

          I actually thought that the spell it out, hit you over the head approach of Ferguson telling you exactly who Mitchell was and then following it up with his charge up the hill is something that is more along their lines of doing things, can’t miss that, its right there up in your face. What we saw in Ethon was more subtle and may have been a result of Ben’s influence. He really seems to like this director. He’s the first one (actually the only one) that he has singled out to praise creatively. This is the same guy that he praised for The Scourge in the Dreamwatch interview. So between the two of them, they may have found ways to be a little more subtle in executing the follow up here.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Kas
            Once again, I do hope that this is the case. What a convoluted way of going about the whole situation though. I can't really decide what would have been better for the character, to come in as undisputed military controller or show the subtleties of just why he's 'the chosen one'. It's true that whenever there's been a tough call, Mitchell is the one to take it. I've no doubt he's leader but Stargate is not used to subtleties and are usually beaten over the head with obviousness. This certainly is developing to be a whole new way of storytelling with Stargate PTB and in my view an absolute necessity. Now, I'm definitely intrigued to see how S10 develops

            Like you, I hope that we're not reading traits that these producers cannot live up to, that they have grown some and this is what they deliberately are portraying in their stories for this season. I must confess, it's certainly coming across that way. Too many subtle instances, as you've stated.
            IMO, opinion it would have been better to have brought him in as the straight up proactive military leader from the get go. Better for Mitchell and better for the show. I've always felt that the whole reason behind Mitchell's existence as a character was to reset the show back to the original formula of early SG-1. Because they haven't been willing to face things squarely they haven't been able to do that yet. Now they need to reposition him to where he should have been from the beginning without making Stargate look like Invasion of the Body Snatchers.
            Last edited by Dream-a-Little; 08 February 2006, 05:00 PM.

            Comment


              Originally posted by ChillinTheMost
              <snip>If Mitchell had fired and destroyed the satellite weapon BEFORE we knew the president/whoever would give the order to destroy the Prometheous, wouldn't Mitchell then be getting all kinds of crap for again just rushing to do something? Wouldn't many fans be arguing that Daniel could have brokered a peaceful compromise and old hotheaded Mitchell just wanted to blow up stuff? Last episode he ran up the hill AND we KNOW he saved the day and he STILL got all kinds of crap for it. This time, he would have blown up the weapon and the audience would have had NO idea that the alternative would have resulted in many deaths and the destruction of the Prometheous. Wouldn't the fan backlash have been incredibly volatile? They'd be ready to hang Mitchell for once again reacting decisively - except they would have called it "acting rashly".

              So, instead he doesn't, and he gets crap for that, too. Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

              I like what Dream-A-Little said about this episode going back to the last episode and showing the impact of Mitchell's impetuousness vs. the hesitation the fans wanted last week, however, it seems that nobody got that. They're just crucifying him once again.
              Doing things like pointing out that Daniel had said to destroy the weapon if things went bad were most certainly designed to keep the character from being beaten up as a Danny Killer. But I think Mitchell will still get crap for anything he does. I have problems in general though with writing the show defensively. IMO, that's pretty much all they have been doing all the way around and it makes for poor story telling. I think it threatens to suck the life out of the show to always have to worry about who will we set off this time. Defensive show writing is not creative show writing. Although the fact that they are willing to now put him under the defensive umbrella is way better than designating him as the take one for the team boy that they had been doing.

              Maybe when they film the episodes from here on out, they should show two endings.
              Ending Scenerio One: Mitchell waits for Sam and Daniel to climb the hill: Ship takes off. Teal'c, unable to kill Bra'tac, is killed by Ba'al. Then Ba'al kills Bra'tac.
              Ending Scenerio Two: Mitchell storms the hill and boards the ship and saves Teal'c and Bra'tac.
              Ending words on screen: We're using Scenerio Two, feel free to beeyotch about it, but know the consequences of what you wanted.


              I'm actually sure there are those that would have been willing to see both Teal'c and Bra'tac die if it meant that Mitchell did not get to be the hero. I mean, that's pretty much how idiotic and extreme things have gotten in some quarters.

              This episode? We saw the consequences of what some people wanted last time. In essence, we got Scenerio One, and still they complain -- because they DID see the result of Scenerio One. Hindsight is 20/20.

              If they had shown Mitchell being decisive in this episode, the audience wouldn't have known what it saved and they would have complained that he was being impulsive and... whatever.

              Okay, if this doesn't make sense or I'm misreading the discussion, please let me know and I'll delete it.
              Makes perfect sense, I just don’t think they can be writing on the defensive all the time. Story wise you just tie yourself up in knots and make a mess of things. Season 9, IMO, has been all about writing defensively (although, until recently not in defense of Mitchell) and it hasn't been a pretty sight. That's why I am incredibly grateful that Joe Mallozzi has disappeared off the internet. The relationship he had with the internet fan community had an incestuous feeling to it. Inbreeding does not produce good results in people, nor does it do so in television shows. You also cannot hope to convince with reason those who insist on being unreasonable. And IMO there are quite a few who fall in the unreasonable category in the online community. By constantly focusing on addressing the unreasonableness of a limited group of individuals (the internet community) you get away from concentrating on what draws the more general audience, good story telling and strong characters that are written to service the story and not the agendas of individual fan groups. And in the end, you probably would never please those individual fan groups by trying to meet their agendas anyway. They are essentially bullies. Give them what they want and they will only see it as encouragement to bully some more. It turns into a power trip thing.


              But if it is, and I hope it is, I don't think many fans will make the connection. And unless we are shown the alternative of Mitchell's decisiveness, he will be ridiculed.

              I'm not attacking your post, because I believe you are right: In the context of the show as "reality", they have shown that Mitchell's decisiveness is needed. But from the viewpoint of the anti-Mitchell fans and without the benefit of the alternative results, he will be raked over the coals.
              You're right; many fans probably won't get it unless they spell it out using really small words. Some of the "subtly” here may actually just be a fear of putting things out on the table in a decisive and undisputable fashion. It makes it so much harder for them to go run and hide under the bed when this fan group or that fan group says boo! Whatever would life be without a back door to escape out of?

              Comment


                I agree they shouldn't write defensively and I totally agree that Mallozzi getting off the internet is a good thing for the show. I think [hope?] he was unduly influenced by the fans that he wanted to please [every faction] and this affected his writing creativity adversely. I hope he can now just concentrate on writing the show that he and the other writers/producers envisioned. Fans that are enjoying it can watch it and fans that aren't can watch something else or their old DVDs.

                And maybe I should take my own advice and just watch and enjoy and not let the negativity get to me.

                My post was just frustration from reading different threads and different forums where one week Mitchell is criticized for rushing into things and the next he's criticized for hesitating. One week he's critized for being too much like O'Neill and the next he's criticized for being nothing like O'Neill. One week he doesn't do anything and he's wallpaper and the next he's doing too much and trying to take over the show. There is no way to please some fans that want this show to remain static and can't accept that RDA has moved on.

                Okay, enough fussing from me. The worst thing is, I can actually sympathize with how many fans feel about RDA's absence. If FarScape had continued on without Ben, I would have been worse. I honestly don't know if I could continue watching. As much as I loved the show, to me, Ben was the show. I don't think I'd go on a website to malign whoever took his place, but I certainly would be hurting inside. So I can understand their pain. I can't understand the hatefulness and venom towards the replacement, but I can understand the hurt.

                Okay, I'm moving on now. Hopefully.

                Comment


                  The difference in RDA leaving Stargate and Ben leaving Farscape is: Farscape is about John. The whole show is about John and his fish out of water story. With Stargate it is about going through the gate and the adventures to be had. It is not about Jack. Yes, Jack was there at the begining but anyone can go through the gate. Don't get me wrong. I watched Stargate for RDA. I am a fan and have been for years. But in Farscape the whole story is about John. Not just the people on Moya but John. Hope that made sense.
                  Sybil

                  Comment


                    It makes sense and I don't disagree, but when I try putting myself into the shoes of the fans that are upset, that's how I do it: How would I feel if it were FarScape/Browder/Crichton. An obsession is an obsession is an obsession.

                    Comment


                      I have to agree that it is all the better without Mallozzi's presence. I thought too much was always given away and definitely his comments were always inflatory to the 'fan' base. It's a mistake for the fanbase to have such familiarity with such a closely connected person to the storyline, IMO.

                      Now for some positivity regarding Mitchell Leah Holmes is Stargate's reviewer for SFX which, as you probably know, is Britain's largest selling, circulating genre magazine.

                      She gave 4th Horseman Part 2 4/5 stars and Collateral Damage 5/5 stars.

                      This is what she wrote about the episode:

                      Thematically this has parallels with the TNG episode 'Violations', with discussions on the importance of a person's memories to their perceptions and a main character having their mind tinkered with against their will. It's done very well too - Ben Browder's finally been given a chance to really shine, and shine he does.

                      Mitchell's memory of bombing the refugees and its aftermath is a little contrived but genuinely harrowing, while the memories that show his relationship with his father are very moving. The minimal effects are great too - Marell's distorted reflection is far creepier than any CGI beastie would be and the grainy, broken up memory of the murder works brilliantly. Fantastic.
                      Great comments! What a shame though that they've also noticed that this is really the first episode where Ben really has something to do!

                      Comment


                        Yea! Great review. Thanks for sharing, Kas! Any more reviews from Leah that you can share with us?

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by ChillinTheMost
                          I agree they shouldn't write defensively and I totally agree that Mallozzi getting off the internet is a good thing for the show. I think [hope?] he was unduly influenced by the fans that he wanted to please [every faction] and this affected his writing creativity adversely. I hope he can now just concentrate on writing the show that he and the other writers/producers envisioned. Fans that are enjoying it can watch it and fans that aren't can watch something else or their old DVDs.

                          And maybe I should take my own advice and just watch and enjoy and not let the negativity get to me.

                          My post was just frustration from reading different threads and different forums where one week Mitchell is criticized for rushing into things and the next he's criticized for hesitating. One week he's critized for being too much like O'Neill and the next he's criticized for being nothing like O'Neill. One week he doesn't do anything and he's wallpaper and the next he's doing too much and trying to take over the show. There is no way to please some fans that want this show to remain static and can't accept that RDA has moved on.

                          Okay, enough fussing from me. The worst thing is, I can actually sympathize with how many fans feel about RDA's absence. If FarScape had continued on without Ben, I would have been worse. I honestly don't know if I could continue watching. As much as I loved the show, to me, Ben was the show. I don't think I'd go on a website to malign whoever took his place, but I certainly would be hurting inside. So I can understand their pain. I can't understand the hatefulness and venom towards the replacement, but I can understand the hurt.

                          Okay, I'm moving on now. Hopefully.
                          Empathizing with and understanding the hurt that Jack fans feel at his loss is certainly something to strive for. It always helps any situation if you can put yourself in the other guy’s shoes. It’s just harder when the other guy’s shoes have been worn by someone who has been indulging in vicious and abusive conduct. You're showing a gentler and more generous nature here than most.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Kas
                            I have to agree that it is all the better without Mallozzi's presence. I thought too much was always given away and definitely his comments were always inflatory to the 'fan' base. It's a mistake for the fanbase to have such familiarity with such a closely connected person to the storyline, IMO.

                            Now for some positivity regarding Mitchell Leah Holmes is Stargate's reviewer for SFX which, as you probably know, is Britain's largest selling, circulating genre magazine.

                            She gave 4th Horseman Part 2 4/5 stars and Collateral Damage 5/5 stars.

                            This is what she wrote about the episode:

                            Thematically this has parallels with the TNG episode 'Violations', with discussions on the importance of a person's memories to their perceptions and a main character having their mind tinkered with against their will. It's done very well too - Ben Browder's finally been given a chance to really shine, and shine he does.

                            Mitchell's memory of bombing the refugees and its aftermath is a little contrived but genuinely harrowing, while the memories that show his relationship with his father are very moving. The minimal effects are great too - Marell's distorted reflection is far creepier than any CGI beastie would be and the grainy, broken up memory of the murder works brilliantly. Fantastic.
                            Great comments! What a shame though that they've also noticed that this is really the first episode where Ben really has something to do!
                            Bless you for sharing that! The first time he has been give a chance to really shine, but hopefully not the last!

                            Comment


                              I think Ben was absolutely wonderful in Off the Grid. He is such a good actor. I am off to see what the whiners and complainers have to say. It amazes me that people will watch a show that gives them so much displeasure. I do tend to skip over the ones I know have consistently complained about Mitchell. Anyway, I was so entertained last night. The whole team was a blast.
                              Sybil

                              Comment


                                I'm sorry to say that I hated Mitchell in this ep, except for the end aboard Baal's ship. But before then, he just seemed like an idiot to me, and the other three seemed to be tolerating him like a kid brother or something. Ugh.

                                Comment

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