Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Sparky She-Demon]

Like it!

Glad you like it!

Somewhat OT but I can't help it!

Spoiler:

I finally finished my SGA story! Sam tells Jack!

[fems]

Tok'ra Barbie has been around for years for Anise/Freya and, personally, I find it more fitting than Tok'ra Spice. I'm not sure who came up with Tok'ra Spice although I've read posts saying it was actually used on some DVD commentary once (don't know if this is true since I hardly watch those) so I guess it's possible TPTB started it or at least acknowledged it.

[Sparky She-Demon]

I didn't know that. I thought it fit them particularly well.

[fems]

Yeah, it does. A Stargate line by Mattel with GI Joe being Jack, GI Jane is Sam, nerdy/Indiana Jones Ken is Daniel, sporty Ken is Teal'c, the doctor is Janet, the little kid is Cassandra and an older Ken for Hammond. Then there's Tok'ra Barbie for Anise/Freya and Tok'ra Ken can be Martouf/Lantash.

[Sparky She-Demon]

They seriously did that?

[fems]

No...

[Sparky She-Demon]

No...

Apologies, sometimes I take things too literally.

[picardythirds]

Yeah, it does. A Stargate line by Mattel with GI Joe being Jack, GI Jane is Sam, nerdy/Indiana Jones Ken is Daniel, sporty Ken is Teal'c, the doctor is Janet, the little kid is Cassandra and an older Ken for Hammond. Then there's Tok'ra Barbie for Anise/Freya and Tok'ra Ken can be Martouf/Lantash.

Bwhahah.

[Sparky She-Demon]

Bwhahah.

Funny huh? I didn't even realize that she was already called that! It just sounded good to me.

[neverendingimagination]

I haven't forgotten about my review. I'll have it up shortly

[Sparky She-Demon]

I haven't forgotten about my review. I'll have it up shortly

It'll be nice to see it!

[neverendingimagination]

Shippers Rewatch - Season 4 Episode 3
Crossroads

General Rating : 6/10
Shippiness rating : 1/10

Saying this episode is not one of my favourites would be an understatement. In the interests of a balanced review, I put aside my prejudices and looked at the episode afresh. I pulled out my extra strength rose-tinted-shippy glasses in the hope of finding a spark of Shippiness.

Story

Teal’c’s ex, girlfriend, a Priestess, Shau’nac, travels to Earth with the goal of contacting the Tok’ra. She claims she has communicated with her Goa’uld symbiote during Kel’noreem. She claims the symbiote is convinced the Goa’uld are evil, it will give information to the Tok’ra to help the fight. After some convincing, Teal’c attempts to communicate with his symbiote. He receives a vision of his father’s death, confirmation of successful communication and evidence proving Shau’nac’s theory.

SG1 contact the Tok’ra and Anise returns to contact the council, Freya tells Teal’c she will try to find a new symbiote for Shau’nac. SG1 accompanies Shau’nac to Vorash where they meet Hebron, the human who is to be host to the symbiote. Jack is skeptical and ensures that Hebron knows what he is agreeing to. Hebron fully understands, he tells Jack that the people of his world were enslaved by the Goa’uld a generation ago. The symbiote ‘transfers’ immediately and tells them Shau’nac is weak. He introduces himself as Tanith and swears his allegiance to the Tok’ra.

That night he is visited by Shau’nac and asks her how she had the audacity to communicate with one who would become her god. He tells her he is the Goa’uld and kills her by crushing her Primta ensuring that human and Goa’uld blood mix.

The Tok’ra return Shau’nac’s body to Teal’c, they believe her death to be due to the symbiote’s youth and inability to heal her. Teal’c tries to communicate with his symbiote and is once again shown the vision of his father’s death. Cronus crushed his father’s primta.
He returns to the Tok’ra and tells Anise he believes Shau’nac was murdered, he presents the vision and Janet’s finding of Goa’uld blood in Shau’nac’s bloodstream as evidence. He wishes to kill Tanith in revenge but Anise convinces him to let him live, they can then feed Apophis false information for the good of the cause.


Discussion

[b]General:[b]

The plot of this episode doesn’t draw me in. I felt no compulsion to continue watching and find out how the story ends, nor do I enjoy rewatching it. There are some interesting team development moments but not much else. It’s much of the same ground reworked, Jack finding the Tok’ra uncooperative, the Tok’ra defending their position, Teal’c allowing his dreams to cloud his judgement, naivety costs lives. It’s nothing new. It is unfortunate that this episode feels so much like what it is, a filler episode that sets up the season finale.
I have to wonder if this plot point in the season arc really warranted a full episode devoted to it. The Goa’uld symbiote swapping sides could have played alongside a bigger storyline.


Team:

This is very much a Teal’c centric episode, his hopes of freeing his people threatened to cloud his judgement. He, along with Shau’nac was tricked into believing the Goa’uld symbiotes can be convinced that their forefathers are, and were, not gods, but in fact evil tyrants. The rest of the team remains skeptical for much longer than Teal’c but stand by him regardless.

None of the Teal’c centred episodes particularly interest me, there seems to be a lack of progress within his personal story. Of course, the Goa’uld hamper his journey, but his episodes constantly rake over the same ground – particularly in the first five seasons. In fact, the best Teal’c episodes are the two Chris wrote himself in seasons 7 and 8.

The Tok’ra:

The characterization of Hebron was very clever. He is genuinely pure of heart, naïve and wants to fight to free others of the Goa’uld. A perfect copy of the façade Tanith was using to fool Shau’nac. Tanith is obviously manipulative, cold, scheming and Goa’uld through and through.

‘Hebron’ assured SG1 and Anise that Tanith is pure of heart and would undergo any test to confirm that he (Hebron) is truly speaking of his own volition. For me this is a calculated risk by Tanith, he either, held back or masked his true feelings and desires during the blending, or took a risk pretending to be Hebron.

I vote for the second option, knowing Shau’nac through the thoughts and memories she shared with him, and then Hebron’s knowledge of the Tok’ra, he would know how to manipulate them to gain their trust.

Mimicking Hebron’s tone, speech and vocal patterns would be a synch. In fact if you listen carefully, when Hebron speaks before the ‘transference’ he has a very soft tone, with a youthful innocence. When he confirms he is there after the ‘transference’, it is slightly harsher. I don’t know whether this was a deliberate choice on Peter Wingfield’s part of merely an accident, but in situations like this, it provides an interesting talking point.

The casting Peter Wingfield in this role was highly beneficial to the storyline, he has a commanding presence and can be authoritative and aloof with ease. In contrast his depiction of youthful and naïve Hebron is so innocent you could almost believe he is in his twenties, something I hadn’t seen from him before I saw this episode.

I have seen him in Holby City as Daniel Clifford, a highly intelligent, comedic and suave surgeon. He was commanding and authoritative with a witty undertone. His portrayal of Dr James Watson in Sanctuary was again different, he oozes upperclass aristocracy but also an ability to interact with people from all backgrounds without a trace of patronization. I know he was in Highlander but having never seen it I cannot comment of the character or portrayal – perhaps someone who has seen it can add to the discussion?

The two personalities of this ‘Tok’ra’/Goa’uld are such polar opposites, his entire body language and cadence changes, even without the voice alteration you would be able to tell who was speaking.

On the subject of Tok’ra personalities, the actors cast to play the Tok’ra should be commended for taking on the challenge.

In a future episode, a female Tok’ra, whose name eludes me (she has an English accent and is killed when the Tok’ra base is attacked) completely changes her stance and body language, along with her tone and cadence, when swapping between personalities, taking things a step further than the others. In Tok’ra form she stands straight and tall, is clinical and harsh, the human personality is softer and much more relaxed.

Vanessa Angel made both Freya and Anise her own; their personalities are clearly defined by her acting, the same with JR Bourne and Martouf/Lantash, but both to a lesser extent. Carmen Argenziano kept Jacob and Selmak separate, with Jacob’s lighter tone and wit, and Selmak’s much more serious posture and expressions.

Other actors seemed to rely far too heavily on the voice alteration to distinguish between who was talking.

[Jaffa Immune System:

I find the subject of the Jaffa Immune System to be quite interesting, I’ve always wondered exactly how it works and more light is shed on the subject in this episode. Teal’c has said it at some point that ‘Without a symbiote a Jaffa has no immune system and will die’. From future episodes, we see that the symbiote is not only responsible for the immune system but also the healing process. When Teal’c loses his symbiote he heals much slower than before.

In this episode Janet states ‘the symbiote functions like an internal organ, there are exchanges of hormones and electrical impulses, but its on a completely unconscious level’ to me this suggest the term immune system is incorrect or hugely simplified.
Very simply put, the human immune system comprises of white blood cells which are released in response to bacterial, viral and fungal infection. We know that the Goa’uld blood and Jaffa blood do not mix, this suggests the pouch works rather like the placenta, allowing chemicals and electrical impulses to pass into the Jaffa blood stream and glucose and other substances to pass to the Goa’uld symbiote.

I suggest, rather than the symbiote being the immune system, it in fact takes on the roles of hormone production; thus triggering an immune response when foreign bodies are detected in the Jaffa. I would imagine that the symbiote has responsibility for all hormone production, adrenaline, testosterone, cortisone, etc and that the Jaffa is unable to stimulate the production of any hormones themselves. I would also suggest that tretonin stimulates the Jaffa into producing such hormones in place of the symbiote.


Favourite lines/scenes

Only a couple of lines stand out in this episode, and they all involve Jack:

Jack - Bra’tac, you’ve done something with your hair.

Shau’nac - You’re Teal’c’s apprentice.
Jack - Apprentice?

Jack – I think what Teal’c is trying to say-
Teal’c – I said precisely what I meant.

Jack - There was definite sparkage when she arrived.


Shippiness

There are only a few scenes with Jack and Sam – let alone doing anything shippy.

Jack talks to Sam and Daniel in Sam’s lab. He suggests Teal’c and Shau’nac have a history. “There was definite sparkage when she arrived” I might be looking too far into it but, the shot swaps to a mid-shot of Sam, could this be a veiled reference to their first meeting?

Again they mirror each other at the briefing table, both arms on the table, clasping their hands in a similar manner – although Daniel seems to do the same thing, make of that what you will.

Anise greeting Sam and Jack, passing on a message from Jacob is the tiniest bit shippy. “Your father requests I shake your hand and give Colonel O’Neill a big kiss from him”. I find it interesting that Jacob sent his greetings to Jack and neither Daniel or Teal’c – does he holder Jack in higher esteem or does he see him as more than his daughter’s CO?

[hlndncr]

Great Review nei. A lot of really good points and interesting information.

Hopefully, I'll have a few minutes tomorrow to comment on Upgrades and Crossroads.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

i personally love the scene where Jack just got fed up and he's like "F-This we're out of here."

[fems]

One of the things I really dislike about all the Teal'c-centric episodes is that they completely contradict/retcon things that have been stated as facts in previous episodes, especially the two in seasons 6 and 7.

It also bothers me that Teal'c apparently had a relationship with this Shan'auc in the past, even though it's been implied he and Drey'auc had been together/married for a long time. Did he just have mistresses on other planets? Never mind that he gets rather cozy with Shan'auc while Drey'auc is living in the Land of Light or already at Rebel camps (don't recall exact timeline here) with their son! Drey'auc and Teal'c supposedly got back together in Family even though Teal'c had to leave again to continue his fight for freedom for all Jaffa, but considering how outraged he was when Drey'auc annulled their marriage in order to marry Fro'tac I find it very hypocritical of Teal'c to get it on with Shan'auc! At least Drey'auc had good reasons for her 'betrayal' of him: Teal'c had caused her and their son to become outcasts and they nearly died in the camps, so she married Fro'tac to keep herself and their son safe/healthy.

Teal'c is being very selfish here. And like nei pointed out, it's not just in how he acts towards Shan'auc and how he believes her every word but also because his actions put not only his team but all the Tok'ra in jeopardy too!

You'd think a man of a hundred years old would be wiser and wouldn't be tempted by a pretty face, but Teal'c always gets very impulsive, unreasonable and selfish (not to mention careless, as he often jeopardizes the lives of his teammates too in these situations) when it comes to him, his past or some Jaffa cause. If it's not his son/wife he forgot to mention but must now safe, then it's Shan'auc, Tanith, K'tano, Arkad or one of the other Rebel/Free Jaffa causes. It gets very tiresome to say the least.

I also don't understand why Shan'auc has a gold colored tattoo even though the other (male) priests on Chulak all had silver colored ones and Ishta and her fellow (former?) priestesses all had regular black ones.

The whole symbiote thing is also complicated once more here. I really wish TPTB had had more continuity when it came to this or, better yet, an actual concept about the symbiote/Jaffa thing at the beginning of the show instead of retconning/contradicting it in every episode in which the symbiotes play a major role. It makes no sense for the blood of Jaffa and symbiote to be lethal when mixed, considering the symbiote is supposed to replace the immune system and somehow have healing abilities that aren't restricted to the pouch. Also, if it's lethal then how come Goa'uld (in hosts) can eat symbiotes without dying? Hathor made Jack a temporary Jaffa and therefore he would have been killed if he'd been given a symbiote and that was crushed inside his pouch, yet if he'd been taken a host he could eat symbiotes (and thus their blood) without any harmful side effects?

The whole genetic memory thing, as awesome as the concept sounds, has never made any sense to me and it's only made worse in this episode as Teal'c's current symbiote, stolen from a tank on Chulak and most likely an offspring from Apophis, somehow knows how Teal'c's father who was in service of Cronus (Apophis' arch nemesis) was murdered? Yeah right. Or do the Goa'uld all order their little symbiotes from the same Queen, meaning Apophis and Cronus' offspring are half-siblings (assuming both Goa'uld actually fathered the symbiotes and it wasn't an asexual process)?

The only positive thing in this episode to me (from what I recall when I watched it years ago) is Tanith, because he's a great bad guy. The actor is indeed superb, just like he was in Sanctuary. I don't really like the whole Jaffa revenge thing that happens at the end of this season (or next season?), but I do like Tanith and his creepy smirk.