Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[hedwig]

This is a great point and I never actually thought of it before. In Between Two Fires she talks about the fact that they are years away from being able to reverse engineer the ion cannon (big honking space gun ). That kind of thing can only be humbling for a scientist like Sam.

Personally, I think she's already quite humble. She often doesn't take credit for what she discovers and nearly always gives credit to others working with her on a project.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

"This is where we came in?" what was that supposed to mean?

[ErikaMariia]

no The Daniel Jackson was a science class vessel.

ah, sorry. but was there a O'Neill class ships later?

[fems]

Nice review. I really enjoy the concept of The Other Side and think this is one of the better episodes of SG-1. They didn't quite make 'em like this one in the last seasons, which is a shame.

I agree that there are many moments when almost all of them make errors in judgment, although I would have to rewatch the episode (it's been years) to see if I agree about the point of SG-1 being the wrong team and Jack going from trading partners (as were his orders?) to negotiating an alliance (against Hammond's orders?). However, there have been various situations throughout the seasons where I thought a diplomatic team (or even a science team) would have been better than SG-1 but of course they wouldn't show that because TPTB wanted to show us that story, which has to include SG-1 as the entire show is about them. For example, this would have made far less of an impact if SG-1 had gone on a routine mission and was only at the SGC to see the diplomatic team come back, hear their version of events and possibly (but not probably) see them slam the iris on Alar.

So, naturally, this had to be a mission for SG-1. I also shudder to think what might have happened had a diplomatic team taken over and established a trading partnership/alliance with the Eurondans! ö

I'm not sure I would say Jack is in the wrong for becoming one of their "pilots", as he was under the impression both sides used unmanned aircraft and this way he got to experience the Eurondans' advanced technology himself and thus would be better able to judge its worth in negotiations for trading and his report back to Hammond/the brass. Alar and his people were, however, wrong in that they led him to believe there would be no actual casualties and (since I'm going on memory here) while they may not have implied it, it was pretty obvious they were aware of Jack's perception and this shows through the entire episode: they were clearly trying to use their technology as an incentive and "neglected" to tell SG-1 the truth on more than one occasion just to make themselves look better.

And, of course, there is the danger the enemy fighters pose to the compound and thus SG-1's (which is Jack's responsibility) safety. Is it comparable to the base being stormed by enemies and SG-1 taking up their own guns to protect themselves (and possibly their new trading partners/allies)? No, absolutely not because Jack and his team weren't in any direct danger (the Eurondans didn't seem too concerned with the attack, IIRC) and there were presumably other capable pilots around. But I still stand by my earlier point of using the technology to get a better idea of its advantages as a good thing, especially in light of thinking the other planes were unmanned as well, so there wouldn't be any actual casualties and therefore I don't think Jack made an error in judgment here. As a matter of fact, I might say it was a good strategical move by him: get insider knowledge of their advanced technology and make yourself look good to the Eurondans by showing off your flying skills and that you're not just about words but actions (of course, this also depends on the fact of whether they were trading or becoming allies at this point).

However, I do agree about Daniel: I was about ready to reach into my TV/monitor and strangle him for questioning Jack and the Eurondans during negotiations in and in front of the Eurondans! You would think someone of his intellect and supposed experience (in dealing with other alien races, creating treaties/alliances, etc) would know better than to question your leader at such a time! Heck, I knew better as a kid than to question my mother and what she said during conversations with others; of course, I was also taught never to interrupt people when they were talking and instead just getting their attention by indicating I wanted to say/needed something (for example: just Daniel saying "Jack" and hinting he wanted to say more and Jack nodding to indicate they would continue their conversation afterwards would have been more than enough). But instead, Daniel just bulldozes right through and not only questions Jack but undermines his authority, which is a big no-no, especially when working with the military I presume considering their chain of command thing.

Now, I'm not denying Daniel had some good arguments and that perhaps Jack was going too fast or was too eager to get defense technology for Earth without asking too many (or even just a necessary amount of) questions, but he shouldn't have questioned Jack at that point. I could certainly understand Jack's dislike for scientists/civilians on his team right then.

I'm not entirely sure what the point was of putting all those Eurondans in stasis/freezing them. Were they already dead or just getting old(er) and were put in there to preserve them and get them back once the war was over? Or perhaps bring them back to life afterwards. I don't recall whether it was explained but considering the number of folks they had in those pods I wouldn't be surprised if it was simply done out of preservation: they were stuck in the underground bunker after all and didn't seem to have too much (fresh or varied) food, let alone enough space for all those people. It may also be that more people would require even more resources (heavy water) for their defense and regular things like oxygen and warmth throughout the compound. It's possible they simply drew straws or did the Eurondan equivalent of it to decide who had to go to sleep early, but it could have also been done per generation: every older generation goes to sleep at some point, probably around the time their offspring can take over their or someone else's function. But it may also be that only the 'experts' are allowed to 'live' while the more useless people would only waste their resources and thus had to (voluntarily?) go into stasis. Or perhaps the folks in stasis were suffering from the same brain deterioration as that one pilot after having manned too many flights and the Eurondans were hoping to be able to 'heal' them once the war was over.

Whatever it was, the scene with all those Eurondans in stasis made quite an impression on me the first time I saw it. More specifically, when I realized they were all fair-haired, light-skinned and perhaps even blue-eyed: it was rather blatant yet there was some subtlety to how the reveal was done too. It was an excellent reveal in my opinion and some good writing by BW, something they could have used in later seasons as well.

I didn't know about the last line but I'm glad RDA decided against saying it because, once again, he managed to convey much more with his actions (or lack thereof, depending on at which moment he was supposed to say it: during his brief debrief to Hammond or the standoff with Sam?) than with words. Jack's attitude back at the SGC spoke volumes and RDA did some excellent acting there! Again, something that was lacking in the final seasons, in my opinion. At least, the acting of this caliber, because I can't say they were all acting poorly at the time.

I can't say I agree with the whole bookending of the episode but I do see the similarities and, more importantly, the contrast between the two scenes: in the beginning Sam is feeling guilty for 'letting' those Eurondans go splat and Jack assures her it wasn't her fault (and he was right; they couldn't have known it and even if they did, they shouldn't have opened the iris to just anyone knocking), but in the end Jack makes the decision to have them close the iris against an incoming traveler and there is nothing Sam can say to that. I love that scene, especially because like hlndncr said it shows (later on in the show) that Sam loves him even though she truly knows his dark side too and can still look past it to see the good in Jack.

Jack turning on the Eurondans by bringing down their own fighters wasn't really a problem to me because, for one, they were unmanned and he felt betrayed by Alar's actions and omissions, which isn't too strange but he also knew the true extent of the Eurondans' history and nature and just couldn't sit by idly and let them destroy the 'enemy'.

I also, wholeheartedly, agree with Jack on closing the iris. There isn't any technology worth bringing back another Hitler to Earth, because we all know some politician and/or the NID/Trust would undoubtedly get their hands on him and let him roam the planet freely in exchange for the Eurondans' technology. And let's not forget that those unmanned aircraft weren't entirely safe to begin with and considering the amount of heavy water they needed to fuel their tiny compound, I doubt the scientists would have been able to recreate the defense tech (if that's really what it was) for our entire planet and get the necessary fuel to actually make it last.

Well, that turned out to be a bit longer than I'd planned! I have more thoughts on this episode but I'm gonna leave it at this and get myself some breakfast.

ETA:
I disagree with hlndncr about SG-1/Earth being able to become a positive influence on Euronda and using their leverage to make them 'better'. First, what leverage? The Eurondans might have needed the heavy water and possibly some medicine/food but it was actually Earth that needed the Eurondans, or more like their advanced technology. There is no way the Eurondans would have just handed over all of their tech in the hopes of Earth reciprocating and not using their 'leverage' over them to force them to change their ways. Moreover, helping the Eurondans would have meant Earth was collaborating with them to kill their enemy, either actively or passively. There is no way the Eurondans would have stopped their war because their views of breeders and whatnot were so ingrained they couldn't look beyond them; if they could have, then they never would have made the comment about Teal'c at such a crucial point because they needed the heavy water/Earth's help and had already proven they didn't mind lying/omitting/distorting the truth to make SG-1 believe their side of things.

[ErikaMariia]

About The Other Side:

I always thought Jack's behaviour was strange. He's usually the one to have doubts about the people they meet. But this time he's the one trusting Eurondas. Then, all of a sudden, after Alar's comment about Teal'c, he changes his mind.

[iiradned]

ah, sorry. but was there a O'Neill class ships later?

In early season 4 the Asgard built a new class of battleship and called it the O'Neill (which Sam had to destroy in order to save Orilla from the Replicators). The Asgard then based all their future warships on the O'Neill, thus it being called the O'Neill class.

The Daniel Jackson is a science vessel and all that is really known about it is that it is the ship Thor used at the start of season 8. We don't even know for sure if it is the Daniel Jackson class as the ship is externally identical to the one Loki used in early season 7. Hell for all we know it is the same ship Loki used just renamed the Daniel Jackson after Loki was punished and the ship was taken from him by the Asgard High Council.

[Starship Trooper]

Personally, I think she's already quite humble. She often doesn't take credit for what she discovers and nearly always gives credit to others working with her on a project.

I agree with that too. I didn't mean to imply that she wasn't humble, just that she remained that way despite all her accomplishments. It's a testament to Sam's character that she is still so grounded despite all the attention and praise she gets as the SGC's lead scientist (arguably the Earth's leading scientist actually).

Loved the review and comments for The Other Side. I've only seen this episode once, but it really stuck with me. I think I'll watch it again before I make any comments though.

[Sparky She-Demon]

Sorry I'm a day late with this. My work schedule has been insane.

The Other Side http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/af243/hlndncr/Gateworld%20Rewatch%20Banners/OtherSide.jpg

Summary
Here we discover that Odo left the brown goo to become Hitler’s step child. He loses molecular cohesion when Jack slams the iris on him, leaving the team with some emotional scars and Teal’c confused by metaphor.

Favorite Scene
Honestly, I don’t think I have a favorite scene, but I will say that the final scene when Jack closes the Iris on Alar and Sam looks so stunned is memorable and thought provoking.

Favorite Lines
Again, I don’t have a favorite line, but the most thought provoking line for me is one that was never said. In the final scene after closing the iris Jack was supposed to say, “This is where we came in.” But RDA chose not to say the line, which writer and exec producer Brad Wright thought made a real difference to how the ending is viewed and supplies Jack with a viable justification.

BW considered the final scene a bookend with the opening scene in the control room when the iris was closed for the first incoming Eurondans. He suggests that SG1 didn't really change anything because the Eurandans were on the verge of destruction anyway and SG1's visit to their planet merely brought a brief reprieve to the inevitable.

While I find this to be an interesting argument I can't really agree with it. Jack took a definite action that assisted and contributed to the Eurondans' immediate downfall and was directly and purposefully responsible for Alar's demise. I don't think that's leaving things the way they found them. It may not have changed the ultimate outcome, but then I think SG-1 and earth could have had a positive effect on that society and planet, using the leverage they had over the Eurondans to broker a deal that would be both conducive to earth's security interests while improving the conditions on Euronda. However, it is always a tricky proposition inserting yourself in the middle of a civil war (as we continue to discover in our world today).

General Analysis

There are a lot of things about the backstory of the Eurondan civil war that I don't understand and the plot glosses over. But I don't think it takes away from a generally good story.

I can't call this a favorite episode, but I think it's a good one and it certainly has a timeliness in its complex conundrums even thirteen years after it was first aired. I think that makes it a valuable and worthwhile episode to watch carefully and consider.

It stands out for me as an episode where nearly everyone demonstrates errors in judgment.

Hammond sent the wrong people in and didn't properly define their mission. He should have had SG1 make contact and assess the situation, but the actual negotiations clearly needed to be handled by a more experienced diplomatic team. Alar used Jack's eagerness for an agreement on trade to try and cement a full out alliance. There is a big difference between being trading partners and being allies. Daniel should have pointed this out, but he was too caught up in his own moral indignation at the general state of war to make the correct observations.

The friction between Jack and Daniel was also disconcerting. Daniel was correct in his broad assessment of the situation that they needed more information before proceeding from a humanitarian mission and a basic trade negotiation to a full strategic partnership. But Jack was correct in pointing out that it was not the time or the place for that discussion at the table with the Eurondans.

Whether or not it would be appropriate to trade with the Eurondans at all is a subject worthy of some debate. There is certainly a moral element to not aiding people as distasteful as this race was eventually unmasked to be. However, earth's interests should still have been taken into account. Moreover, we know very little about the enemy of the Eurondans except that they are not genetically pure. They may or may not have been morally superior. They certainly appear to be technologically inferior, gaining the upper hand in the war more by sheer numbers than military superiority. (Of course, that brings up the plot hole that the Eurondans had at least thousands more people they weren't using but were keeping in stasis. Maybe not enough to turn the tide of the war, but certainly enough to replace a brain dead pilot or two.)

Jack was clearly enamored of the technology at first. While it was perfectly reasonable for him to shoot down the drone in order to gage the value of their technology, he should not have volunteered to fight on the side of the Eurondans when they were later attacked. Perhaps it could be justified because SG1 were themselves at risk in the bunker as it was under attack. But he seemed to think he had been duped when he realized he had in fact taken the lives of one of this unknown enemy of the Eurondans. But it was his over eagerness to take part in the action and complete the negotiations. However, this event planted the seed of doubt in Jack's mind.

When he later realized his mistake in trusting the Eurondans so completely (or at least being indifferent to any potential reasons for mistrust) he compounded his error by actually participating in their downfall. He assisted the enemy fighters and deliberately grounded his own fighters into the bunker. Thus hastening the end of the Eurondans. As horrible as they may have been Jack set himself up as judge, jury and executioner, which is far beyond the scope of merely refusing to trade with or assist a dying race.

I have the same problem with him closing the iris on Alar. Jack had washed his hands of the business and closed the door quite literally on the whole affair. He may have considered that cold-blooded act necessary to protect earth from Alar's dangerous influence, but I'm not entirely convinced of it's rightness.

Sam and Jack
I don't consider this episode particularly shippy; however, Sam and Jack's feelings for one another do play a role.

In the opening scene we learn that Jack is not as much of a slacker as he pretends to be, arriving at work two hours early. However Sam is truly a workaholic as she never left the base for the evening. We also learn that Jack has ordered Sam to get a life. This little order is going to come back and bite him in the butt in later seasons when she does in fact try to create a personal life for herself beyond the SGC in an ill conceived attempt to move beyond her feelings for Jack.

At the end of this scene in the control room Jack tries to assuage Sam's guilt over the lives lost by telling her it's not her fault. He then instructs her to basically toughen up and let it go. Contrast this with the final scene when Jack has purposely ended a life in a similar manner. Sam can't say it's not his fault and she looks stunned that he can be that calm. Jack himself is like a stone. He's so unemotional and almost robotic. Sam has to know at least something of Jack's past. He is a hard and dangerous man beneath the act he puts on. And she sees it absolutely raw and unedited in that moment. It's got to through her for a loop. She stares at him for some time and then abruptly turns away.

I think that is actually an important turning point in their relationship. We know Sam continues to love and admire him and she does so knowing all of the good and dark that is in him. That's a very powerful thing. It is a bond based on true knowledge and not just Pollyanna dreams.

We do see Sam alienating Daniel with her absolute support of Jack. I don't think her position was emotionally based. Later in Scorched Earth she sides with Daniel somewhat to Jack's consternation. It is unfortunate that she is often placed as a mediator between these two because of what she has in common with each. But we do know they both listen to her so I think Sam may have been able to be more of a voice of reason in all this if she would have spoken up. Sam does have a certain power over Jack even if I don't think either one of them would let that sway interfere with the execution of their duties.

Rating
Because this episode is thought provoking (for me at least) I would give it a 7/10.

As far as shippiness goes I find it to be about 5/10. Nothing overt, but I think some interesting subtext underpinning the actions and reactions of the characters to one another and the situation they are in.

It did come back and bite him in the A$$! That's one order I'm sure he regretted giving, at least for a time.

[Sparky She-Demon]

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Summary:A Tok'ra archaeologist arrives at the S.G.C. with newly discovered technology, giving the SG-1 team superhuman powers.

Favorite Scene: Easy. The scene where Jack won't leave Sam, even though he'll most likely die if he does.

Favorite Lines: I can't really pick only one, but the lines from when they're at O'Malley's are particularly amusing. And again, the lines during the scene when S/J are separated by the shield.

General Discussion: There's a lot of things that are worthy of discussion for this episode. But my favorites are:

1. The Tau'ri/Tok'ra alliance seems on shaky ground even before it becomes official.
2. Freya being the "hot alien chick". Cliché anyone?
3. Jack refusing to leave Sam.

For #1, it's becoming apparent that Hammond isn't too thrilled that the Tok'ra only seem to come calling when they need something, usually something that is a serious risk to the life and limb of the SGC, and SG1 in particular.

For #2, both Jack and Daniel seem to have the predictable reactions to Freya and Anise.

Sam and Jack: In my honest opinion, this episode is every bit as shippy as "Divide and Conquer". Because without the events in "Upgrades" what would D&C have? Sure it would still be good, but Jack's refusal to leave Sam in "Upgrades" helps make D&C what it is.

Ratings:

This is a really good episode on all fronts, but I'm giving it a nine, mostly due to the cliché of Freya being as she is.

Sam/Jack shippiness: This episode is a 10 in my opinion. The scene on the ship when Jack won't leave Sam. It shows just what feelings they have for each other!

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

if i remember right wasn't Freya supposed to have been a recurring character and a Love Interest for O'Neill?

[hedwig]

if i remember right wasn't Freya supposed to have been a recurring character and a Love Interest for O'Neill?

Yes. But it was nixed for some reason. Perhaps the actors didn't want it. Or perhaps the fans threw a tantrum and TPTB actually paid attention?

[Sparky She-Demon]

Yes. But it was nixed for some reason. Perhaps the actors didn't want it. Or perhaps the fans threw a tantrum and TPTB actually paid attention?

Pigs flying!

[AmberLM]

if i remember right wasn't Freya supposed to have been a recurring character and a Love Interest for O'Neill?

Oh, god, no!! Eww!

I suspect that was RDA's doing. I mean, how can Jack start bumping uglies with Tok'Ra Spice in the same episode he pretty much admits he's in love with Sam?! That's just wrong on so many levels! Also, it kinda makes him a bit of a man-wh*re

[Sparky She-Demon]

Oh, god, no!! Eww!

I suspect that was RDA's doing. I mean, how can Jack start bumping uglies with Tok'Ra Spice in the same episode he pretty much admits he's in love with Sam?! That's just wrong on so many levels! Also, it kinda makes him a bit of a man-wh*re

Would've been nice to see her as a more recurring character though. She's better I think in D&C, discounting the pass she makes at Jack.

[fems]

Oh, god, no!! Eww!

I suspect that was RDA's doing. I mean, how can Jack start bumping uglies with Tok'Ra Spice in the same episode he pretty much admits he's in love with Sam?! That's just wrong on so many levels! Also, it kinda makes him a bit of a man-wh*re

Not to mention that he and Freya have absolutely nothing in common and Jack has an intense dislike for the Tok'ra (and that's putting it mildly), so basically he would've just gone for it because she's "hot".