Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[hlndncr]

hlndncr : Great fan fic, do you have more stories somewhere? Fanfiction.net?

Thanks. There's a link beneath my sig.

I am working on finishing up season2 ficlets, but my work schedule is very erratic right now.

[majorsal]

But don't you think it would have sounded so much better if, when Jack woke up on the Asgard ship, Thor said, "You are on Samantha Carter".

[hedwig]

Teal'c and Carter are the only original sg-1 members without something named after them. Jack had the O'Neill and O'Neill-class vessels, Daniel had the Daniel Jackson and even good ole Georgie had the Hammond named after him.

I think it's in "A Father's Determination" (sequel to "A Mother's Love") that there's a mention of the Asgard fleet named "The Fleet of Samantha Carter".

[Lucycat]

And him being a little groggy saying "I wish"

Perfect response!

[Ikorni]

But don't you think it would have sounded so much better if, when Jack woke up on the Asgard ship, Thor said, "You are on Samantha Carter".

And him being a little groggy saying "I wish"

Now you guys can have this for confirmation!

[IamDKScully]

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

i think sam needs to have her little blowing up the sun idea to be called "The Carter Project"

[selene0789]

I don't know... Do we really think Sam actually cares about getting stuff named after her? My knee-jerk reaction is to say no, that she's more of a "so long as it gets the job done, I'm happy" kind of girl. But then don't scientists live by the "publish or perish" credo?

So actually, I think it does rub her a little bit to not have her name on things. And also I think she gets frustrated that she can't outright publish her new understanding of physics (courtesy of the Stargate) without running into issues of disclosure and national security.

What do you guys think?

[picardythirds]

I don't know... Do we really think Sam actually cares about getting stuff named after her? My knee-jerk reaction is to say no, that she's more of a "so long as it gets the job done, I'm happy" kind of girl. But then don't scientists live by the "publish or perish" credo?

So actually, I think it does rub her a little bit to not have her name on things. And also I think she gets frustrated that she can't outright publish her new understanding of physics (courtesy of the Stargate) without running into issues of disclosure and national security.

What do you guys think?

I think it bugs her a little (like you said, rubs her the wrong way), in the the sense that she just likes letting other people know about cool things but she's not like McKay, who is OBSESSED with recognition.

I think though, with in the Area 51 circles and the like she is published, at least occasionally. And don't forget she did that presentation thing with Bill in "Bounty"?

But overall, I agree that Sam would rather just have everything working and saving lives than have recognition.

[ErikaMariia]

Thanks. There's a link beneath my sig.

I am working on finishing up season2 ficlets, but my work schedule is very erratic right now.

OOPS! sorry, it was so small I missed it. thanks!

[ErikaMariia]

Don't you guys just love Jack's reaction when he hears about the O'neill and when Sam tells him they blew it up?
Hilarious!

But am I wrong that The Daniel Jackson was a O'Neill class ship?

[fems]

I don't know... Do we really think Sam actually cares about getting stuff named after her? My knee-jerk reaction is to say no, that she's more of a "so long as it gets the job done, I'm happy" kind of girl. But then don't scientists live by the "publish or perish" credo?

So actually, I think it does rub her a little bit to not have her name on things. And also I think she gets frustrated that she can't outright publish her new understanding of physics (courtesy of the Stargate) without running into issues of disclosure and national security.

What do you guys think?

I don't think it bothers her a lot, since she can speak of everything with those in the know about the Program and she's considered the foremost expert on Stargate and Ancient technology. Plus, like picardythirds mentioned, she was awarded the Binder prize twice and is, according to that episode, a "senior consultant for Applied Technologies". Bill Lee also asked her whether it bothered her that they had to play dumb but her reply made it seem like she didn't really mind all that much.

Perhaps it helps, for her, that she's (one of?) the leading scientist(s) at the SGC and probably gets to talk about a lot of her ideas/theories with other scientists there and at Area 51. Also, she at least got her book written in Upgrades, which probably made her feel very accomplished.

I also wouldn't be surprised if her encounters with other aliens who are more advanced has "humbled" her a bit, for lack of a better word.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

Don't you guys just love Jack's reaction when he hears about the O'neill and when Sam tells him they blew it up?
Hilarious!

But am I wrong that The Daniel Jackson was a O'Neill class ship?

no The Daniel Jackson was a science class vessel.

[Starship Trooper]

I also wouldn't be surprised if her encounters with other aliens who are more advanced has "humbled" her a bit, for lack of a better word.

This is a great point and I never actually thought of it before. In Between Two Fires she talks about the fact that they are years away from being able to reverse engineer the ion cannon (big honking space gun ). That kind of thing can only be humbling for a scientist like Sam.

[hlndncr]

Sorry I'm a day late with this. My work schedule has been insane.

The Other Side

Summary
Here we discover that Odo left the brown goo to become Hitler’s step child. He loses molecular cohesion when Jack slams the iris on him, leaving the team with some emotional scars and Teal’c confused by metaphor.

Favorite Scene
Honestly, I don’t think I have a favorite scene, but I will say that the final scene when Jack closes the Iris on Alar and Sam looks so stunned is memorable and thought provoking.

Favorite Lines
Again, I don’t have a favorite line, but the most thought provoking line for me is one that was never said. In the final scene after closing the iris Jack was supposed to say, “This is where we came in.” But RDA chose not to say the line, which writer and exec producer Brad Wright thought made a real difference to how the ending is viewed and supplies Jack with a viable justification.

BW considered the final scene a bookend with the opening scene in the control room when the iris was closed for the first incoming Eurondans. He suggests that SG1 didn't really change anything because the Eurandans were on the verge of destruction anyway and SG1's visit to their planet merely brought a brief reprieve to the inevitable.

While I find this to be an interesting argument I can't really agree with it. Jack took a definite action that assisted and contributed to the Eurondans' immediate downfall and was directly and purposefully responsible for Alar's demise. I don't think that's leaving things the way they found them. It may not have changed the ultimate outcome, but then I think SG-1 and earth could have had a positive effect on that society and planet, using the leverage they had over the Eurondans to broker a deal that would be both conducive to earth's security interests while improving the conditions on Euronda. However, it is always a tricky proposition inserting yourself in the middle of a civil war (as we continue to discover in our world today).

General Analysis

There are a lot of things about the backstory of the Eurondan civil war that I don't understand and the plot glosses over. But I don't think it takes away from a generally good story.

I can't call this a favorite episode, but I think it's a good one and it certainly has a timeliness in its complex conundrums even thirteen years after it was first aired. I think that makes it a valuable and worthwhile episode to watch carefully and consider.

It stands out for me as an episode where nearly everyone demonstrates errors in judgment.

Hammond sent the wrong people in and didn't properly define their mission. He should have had SG1 make contact and assess the situation, but the actual negotiations clearly needed to be handled by a more experienced diplomatic team. Alar used Jack's eagerness for an agreement on trade to try and cement a full out alliance. There is a big difference between being trading partners and being allies. Daniel should have pointed this out, but he was too caught up in his own moral indignation at the general state of war to make the correct observations.

The friction between Jack and Daniel was also disconcerting. Daniel was correct in his broad assessment of the situation that they needed more information before proceeding from a humanitarian mission and a basic trade negotiation to a full strategic partnership. But Jack was correct in pointing out that it was not the time or the place for that discussion at the table with the Eurondans.

Whether or not it would be appropriate to trade with the Eurondans at all is a subject worthy of some debate. There is certainly a moral element to not aiding people as distasteful as this race was eventually unmasked to be. However, earth's interests should still have been taken into account. Moreover, we know very little about the enemy of the Eurondans except that they are not genetically pure. They may or may not have been morally superior. They certainly appear to be technologically inferior, gaining the upper hand in the war more by sheer numbers than military superiority. (Of course, that brings up the plot hole that the Eurondans had at least thousands more people they weren't using but were keeping in stasis. Maybe not enough to turn the tide of the war, but certainly enough to replace a brain dead pilot or two.)

Jack was clearly enamored of the technology at first. While it was perfectly reasonable for him to shoot down the drone in order to gage the value of their technology, he should not have volunteered to fight on the side of the Eurondans when they were later attacked. Perhaps it could be justified because SG1 were themselves at risk in the bunker as it was under attack. But he seemed to think he had been duped when he realized he had in fact taken the lives of one of this unknown enemy of the Eurondans. But it was his over eagerness to take part in the action and complete the negotiations. However, this event planted the seed of doubt in Jack's mind.

When he later realized his mistake in trusting the Eurondans so completely (or at least being indifferent to any potential reasons for mistrust) he compounded his error by actually participating in their downfall. He assisted the enemy fighters and deliberately grounded his own fighters into the bunker. Thus hastening the end of the Eurondans. As horrible as they may have been Jack set himself up as judge, jury and executioner, which is far beyond the scope of merely refusing to trade with or assist a dying race.

I have the same problem with him closing the iris on Alar. Jack had washed his hands of the business and closed the door quite literally on the whole affair. He may have considered that cold-blooded act necessary to protect earth from Alar's dangerous influence, but I'm not entirely convinced of it's rightness.

Sam and Jack
I don't consider this episode particularly shippy; however, Sam and Jack's feelings for one another do play a role.

In the opening scene we learn that Jack is not as much of a slacker as he pretends to be, arriving at work two hours early. However Sam is truly a workaholic as she never left the base for the evening. We also learn that Jack has ordered Sam to get a life. This little order is going to come back and bite him in the butt in later seasons when she does in fact try to create a personal life for herself beyond the SGC in an ill conceived attempt to move beyond her feelings for Jack.

At the end of this scene in the control room Jack tries to assuage Sam's guilt over the lives lost by telling her it's not her fault. He then instructs her to basically toughen up and let it go. Contrast this with the final scene when Jack has purposely ended a life in a similar manner. Sam can't say it's not his fault and she looks stunned that he can be that calm. Jack himself is like a stone. He's so unemotional and almost robotic. Sam has to know at least something of Jack's past. He is a hard and dangerous man beneath the act he puts on. And she sees it absolutely raw and unedited in that moment. It's got to through her for a loop. She stares at him for some time and then abruptly turns away.

I think that is actually an important turning point in their relationship. We know Sam continues to love and admire him and she does so knowing all of the good and dark that is in him. That's a very powerful thing. It is a bond based on true knowledge and not just Pollyanna dreams.

We do see Sam alienating Daniel with her absolute support of Jack. I don't think her position was emotionally based. Later in Scorched Earth she sides with Daniel somewhat to Jack's consternation. It is unfortunate that she is often placed as a mediator between these two because of what she has in common with each. But we do know they both listen to her so I think Sam may have been able to be more of a voice of reason in all this if she would have spoken up. Sam does have a certain power over Jack even if I don't think either one of them would let that sway interfere with the execution of their duties.

Rating
Because this episode is thought provoking (for me at least) I would give it a 7/10.

As far as shippiness goes I find it to be about 5/10. Nothing overt, but I think some interesting subtext underpinning the actions and reactions of the characters to one another and the situation they are in.