Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[hlndncr]

You should do a continuation of this one.

Don't worry. I have plans.

[Kimberley Jackson]

aside from rick being one of the executive producers, that's a lot of kajumbas to be saying they'd shoot down any certain ideas. how about the actors *act*, and let the writers/producers do the other stuff?

Also, didn't AT say something at Shore Leave this year about how they had to send every script to the Pentagon for approval before shooting, and a lot of the times, they would change something esp. in the Sam/Jack relationship because they felt things were getting inappropriate or they were getting too close?
So I'd imagine, even if the actors had wanted to give the fans more, the scenes might have either not gotten approved or ended on the cutting room floor...

[majorsal]

Also, didn't AT say something at Shore Leave this year about how they had to send every script to the Pentagon for approval before shooting, and a lot of the times, they would change something esp. in the Sam/Jack relationship because they felt things were getting inappropriate or they were getting too close?
So I'd imagine, even if the actors had wanted to give the fans more, the scenes might have either not gotten approved or ended on the cutting room floor...

just another people that shouldn't have had any control over storylines!

[hlndncr]

I think people get a little too caught up in the role the AF played as an advisor to the show. Scripts were not sent for approval in the sense that anyone at the Pentagon had any veto power. They had an AF liaison and advisor who would review each of the scripts and offer suggestions. There were times that the AF was uncomfortable with things in the script, including how close the S/J relationship had become. The PTB, particularly RDA, was very respectful of the AF and would try to work with the input they received from their military advisors. So for example they made Dr. Carter a civilian in TBftGoG because the AF asked. (The original idea was not "shot down" or "not approved" by the AF.)

There are many times when for script or character development purposes the PTB chose to do things that would not have followed strict military protocol (oh say, like keeping a team together for eight years). And by the time SGU aired they clearly tossed all respect for the military out the airlock, but then RDA had been away from the show a long time at that point and he was probably the AF's strongest defender.

So yes, RDA and others were very careful about how the S/J relationship was portrayed and I appreciate that. But no the AF and the actors did not shoot down anything that strictly because it was contrary to AF regs or simply because they were opposed to any S/J relationship.

[selene0789]

just another people that shouldn't have had any control over storylines!

I'm glad the military was involved. They know their stuff the best, and I have the utmost gratitude for their role in producing a series so accurate. I see these movies and tv shows where the military is only used as a plot device, and end up being nothing more than a ridiculous stereotype.

Whatever the truth of it-- if it was the producers, the military, or the actors who put the kabosh on the ship-- I'm glad it played out the way it did. Dabble as I may in the realm of AUs and what-ifs, I still love this ship in its canonical entirety. I wouldn't change a thing.

I see all these other shows trying to do what Stargate did, and none of them have been able to weave such an intimate, intricate relationship like S/J's. Gosh, now I'm getting all choked up. Now I'm going to have to go watch some episodes...

[hlndncr]

I just rewatched Nemesis. What a great episode!

Thanks for the review Ikorni!

So hard to choose what I love most in this ep. Everything was done so well. The production values are great. The design of the Asgard ship was very interesting. The Replicators were creepy and menacing. The lighting was beautiful (and made AT look especially pretty), and the music was memorable.

It also had great interaction among all the characters, both our team and the other recurring characters.

I, like others, have a soft spot for Major Davis. He's smart and likeable, and Collin Cunningham is such a cutie. It's great to see a "Washington bureaucrat" who isn't just your cliché tool.

Poor Daniel. Left behind when the rest of the team goes to save the world. I think the moment he had with Hammond pointing out that's how he feels was a nice look at the view from the other side of the stargate so to speak. As Ikorni pointed out, Daniel was supposed to be with the rest of the team on Thor's ship, but for MS needing emergency surgery. I do wonder what he would have done up their other than pick up a gun and start shooting with everyone else. Maybe Sam would bounce her ideas off of him. Anyway, I thought it worked having him on the ground. It added to our investment in the peril the team was in because we saw it through Daniel's eyes.

I love the scene with Jack and Daniel in the infirmary at the beginning. It is kind of unfair that Daniel's faced mortal danger on alien worlds, even died a couple of times, and it's something so mundane and common place that lays him out. Just shows our super heroes are human after all.

It's really funny to when Daniel tries to act like he's all fine and so Jack asks him to go fishing. Yeah, Jack knew he couldn't really get up.

Lots of little moments between Jack and each of his team and Thor. You can see the friendship and trust Jack has built with Thor. They're already buddies. And Jack is totally worried about him. (I don't know how Thor was hurt but my theory is Replicator acid. One of the bugs injected him with some - bit or stung him somehow - and got into his system and was burning him from the inside out.)

And I love the understated macho concern Jack shows toward Teal'c when he goes out to plant the explosives outside the ship. There's so much unspoken affection between the two men in all of those scenes.

Just a couple of other observations. I think the Replicators are such and interesting and unique creation. They really are the perfect enemy for the Asgard because it's turns their advanced technological savvy into their biggest weakness. And the Replicators just get creepier and more dangerous as they evolve, eventually culminating in the ultimate super enemy, RepliCarter - all Sam's brilliance and ingenuity with no conscience.

This is kind of a petty observation, but what is up with AT in that horrible turtleneck at the beginning of the ep? We've never seen it before and thankfully we never see it again. It just does not flatter her.

I would also note that this ep provides us with another example of how not dumb Jack really is. He figures out how to use Thor's toys to call the SGC and beam the explosives and his team onto the ship. I think he could have understood all the technical details in those recordings; he just got bored with it.

Sam on the other hand must have been in heaven getting to learn about how the Asgard ships and other technology worked. I'm sure she put that to use when they started working on the F-302s.

As for shippiness, a very shippy episode IMHO. There is of course Jack's first fishing invitation. While it's light and friendly you could definitely see a frisson of something more going on between them. Sam is at first surprised, then a little uncomfortable, followed by intrigued, finally hesitant enough to resist. Jack seems passive at first but then he's rather hopeful. OK, maybe at this point fishing still means fishing, but it won't be long before it means fishing.

The scene in the briefing room where Jack says it's a one way trip and he's not coming back is also quite telling IMO. Jack doesn't hesitate to sacrifice his own life while sparing his team. Sam's plaintive "Colonel . . . " and the devastated look on her face says it all.

So can you transport us up?

I could. But I'm not going to.

What is your reasoning, O'Neill?

Anybody who comes up is not gettin' down.

Well, sir, if you can't get off the ship…

Yeah, I know. Look, my time's almost up here. Have the stuff ready in ten minutes. Wish me luck.

Colonel…

Major, that's an order, and it's final.

*Cries*

For a great story and shippy goodness (especially the angst) I give this episode an 8 out of 10, dazzling!

[majorsal]

I'm glad the military was involved. They know their stuff the best, and I have the utmost gratitude for their role in producing a series so accurate. I see these movies and tv shows where the military is only used as a plot device, and end up being nothing more than a ridiculous stereotype.

Whatever the truth of it-- if it was the producers, the military, or the actors who put the kabosh on the ship-- I'm glad it played out the way it did. Dabble as I may in the realm of AUs and what-ifs, I still love this ship in its canonical entirety. I wouldn't change a thing.

I see all these other shows trying to do what Stargate did, and none of them have been able to weave such an intimate, intricate relationship like S/J's. Gosh, now I'm getting all choked up. Now I'm going to have to go watch some episodes...

but we still don't have *confirmation*, and you're alright with that???

[Kimberley Jackson]

I think people get a little too caught up in the role the AF played as an advisor to the show. Scripts were not sent for approval in the sense that anyone at the Pentagon had any veto power. They had an AF liaison and advisor who would review each of the scripts and offer suggestions. There were times that the AF was uncomfortable with things in the script, including how close the S/J relationship had become. The PTB, particularly RDA, was very respectful of the AF and would try to work with the input they received from their military advisors. So for example they made Dr. Carter a civilian in TBftGoG because the AF asked. (The original idea was not "shot down" or "not approved" by the AF.)

There are many times when for script or character development purposes the PTB chose to do things that would not have followed strict military protocol (oh say, like keeping a team together for eight years). And by the time SGU aired they clearly tossed all respect for the military out the airlock, but then RDA had been away from the show a long time at that point and he was probably the AF's strongest defender.

So yes, RDA and others were very careful about how the S/J relationship was portrayed and I appreciate that. But no the AF and the actors did not shoot down anything that strictly because it was contrary to AF regs or simply because they were opposed to any S/J relationship.

Look at the following video at about 19:35. AT states that "the military had a say. All of our scripts went to the pentagon before we were allowed to shoot them." Then, when the man in the audience asks "Did they make any changes on them?" AT replies: "Yeah, yeah they did. There was a couple where the relationship between Sam and Jack became a bit too close for the Air Force's liking and we had to pull back on certain things." Then she goes on justifying that kind of 'censorship'.

In essence that is practice with a lot of US television shows that rely on the support of the Armed Forces for things like uniforms, weapons, base footage, etc. (such as J.A.G. as well, for example) It's not a fact that is commonly known by the public, but it's there and already caused heavy criticism in certain newspapers. Of course the writers and producers are free to still shoot the original material but then they will lose the support of the military - and usually very few television shows have a budget high enough that they can afford that.

And from the way AT says it, it also doesn't sound like they were optional advices, that they were given.

[hedwig]

I just rewatched Nemesis.
I would also note that this ep provides us with another example of how not dumb Jack really is. He figures out how to use Thor's toys to call the SGC and beam the explosives and his team onto the ship. I think he could have understood all the technical details in those recordings; he just got bored with it.

Given this line of reasoning, does anyone think that since those weapons had to be beamed up to him that Jack would have figured Hammond would have overruled his order and also send Sam and Teal'c along to back him up?

[selene0789]

but we still don't have *confirmation*, and you're alright with that???

Yes. Even then. As it is, even without confirmation, the ship has been handled better than any other ship I've seen onscreen. And given how the PTB handled the ships that DID happen (Daniel/Sha're, Teal'c/Sho'nac, Jack/Sara, etc) I'm kind of even glad that there is no confirmation. There's a small part of me that's worried that any scripted confirmation would not be as beautiful and fulfilling as the confirmation I've created in my head.

[hlndncr]

1. I don't need to be told what happened at Shore Leave. I was there.

2. Nothing that was said at Shore Leave contradicts my statements.

The AF did review all the scripts, at least after the first season because they did not have a relationship with the AF when they first started filming because the AF was concerned with how they planned to portray the military.

The AF advisors would offer their input.

The producers would make changes as they saw fit.

The USAF has no power of censorship over a private television production, that was filmed in Canada moreover, and the series was not obligated to follow their suggestions. The PTB chose to respect their input and did their best to accommodate. They did not always follow their suggestions.

If you want to believe to the contrary you are welcome to your opinion, but that's just not how it works.

[majorsal]

Yes. Even then. As it is, even without confirmation, the ship has been handled better than any other ship I've seen onscreen. And given how the PTB handled the ships that DID happen (Daniel/Sha're, Teal'c/Sho'nac, Jack/Sara, etc) I'm kind of even glad that there is no confirmation. There's a small part of me that's worried that any scripted confirmation would not be as beautiful and fulfilling as the confirmation I've created in my head.

we definitely differ on our opinions and wants!

[selene0789]

That's not to say I wouldn't appreciate a confirmation scene in a future movie, but for me, the lack of confirmation doesn't detract from the ship itself as it exists in canon. It doesn't cheapen the moments that do exist, but rather enhances them.

[hlndncr]

Given this line of reasoning, does anyone think that since those weapons had to be beamed up to him that Jack would have figured Hammond would have overruled his order and also send Sam and Teal'c along to back him up?

Are you saying that you don't think Hammond overruled Jack and Sam and Teal'c were acting contrary to orders?

I can't believe that. Hammond's reactions throughout the rest of the show would have been very different were that the case.

I do think the shuttle plan was a long shot and it was probably Sam's idea. I'm sure Teal'c was backing her all the way. They wouldn't let Jack go it alone. And I think Hammond was inclined to give in to them because we do know he has a fondness for Jack and SG1. He would want to give Jack the best chance at survival. He also thought Jack would need Sam's help, which as it turned out he did.

[hedwig]

Are you saying that you don't think Hammond overruled Jack and Sam and Teal'c were acting contrary to orders?

I didn't word that very well. I do believe Hammond overruled Jack's orders, and that he sent Sam and Teal'c along with the weapons.

I was just thinking that Jack knew the weapons could be beamed up, so maybe in the back of his mind he thought that Hammond would overrule his (Jack's) order, and also send Sam and Teal'c along with those weapons. Maybe it wasn't a totally conscious thought on Jack's part, but I find it hard to accept that Jack believed Hammond would let him get away with ordering his team to stay away and leave him to die. I think that because Hammond and Jack both knew that SG1 had made it through more difficult situations than this and it usually took more than one brain to come up with a solution, that Hammond would realize Jack needed more than weapons to get through this situation.

I think there must be some sort of disconnect between my brain and what I'm typing out because I don't seem to be doing a very good job of explaining myself.