Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Sparky She-Demon]

Personally I think that only two fully "hosted" people would be able to produce a Harcesis, since they still have symbiotes.

I agree with that!

[Ikorni]

The real take away from all of these theories and discussions is that the information we have is unclear and contradictory. There is no definitive answer. Therefore, I think if your friend wants to write a story where Jack and Sam have a harcesis child she should do it. I believe there is enough evidence in the show to come up with a plausible arguement for it. It doesn't have to fit other's theories or conclusions. It's an intriguing idea.

There has been a fic that explores this idea if I remember - Annerb's As the Gate turns.

[Ikorni]

Nemesis

Summary:

The episode opens with Jack visiting Daniel in the infirmary who has just had an appendectomy, which has gotten him flat on his back for at least a week. (Trivia: Michael Shanks's appendectomy was written into the episode to explain his absence for the rest of the show) SG-1's on leave and we learn that Jack's going fishing. His next stop's at Sam's lab where he finds the object of his affections busy working on a Naquadah reactor, then stumbles out an invitation of sorts when he asks her fishing. She declines the invitation but wishes him a good time.

But Jack is beamed up onto Thor's ship mid-sentence and learns that the Biliskner is overrun by the Replicators, spider-like enemies of the Asgard that were introduced in the earlier episode "Fair Game". We're not given the exact reason for why Thor is sick, but we're told that Jack needs to destroy the ship...and kill himself along in the process before the Replicators land on Earth. He manages to figure out just enough of the holographic communication systems to contact the SGC and request for explosives that he deems powerful enough to destroy an Asgard vessel.

Against his orders (which were countermanded by Hammond), Teal'c and Sam beam up with the explosives and more firearms, which is just as well, because Jack's getting hopelessly lost in the Asgardian technology. Thor says that he has no fast simple method for destroying the ship and provides instead, all the technical specifications of the Biliskner in the hopes that SG-1 might find a way around them. The replicators as we find out, are intelligent but parasitic buggers that ingest the alloys or the metals of entire civilisations (in this case, the ship). They do not seem affected by energy weapons; instead, as SG-1 find out, they can be taken out by good ol' bullets instead, a less advanced form of technology that has lies 'beyond' the comprehension of more advanced races, ironically proving Earth's worth to their allies because their 'stupid' ideas somehow save the day.

It's decided then, that the Biliskner must be crashed into the atmosphere to destroy the replicators. In order to do that, they need to regain control of the navigational computer. Jack and Teal'c make their way down to the bridge enable the systems again, shooting replicators out of the way as they go. The bridge, however, is completely covered in bugs. They concoct a new plan that involves detonating a Naquadah bomb on the Biliskner's deceleration drive as the ship enters atmosphere and Teal'c volunteers to place it on the outside of the hull, rationalising that his symbiote would protect him from the radiation around the ship. However, the replicators have tampered with the airlock and Teal'c is unable to come back in. The only way to save Teal'c, Sam realises, is for him to push off the ship as she activates the Asgard beams. The manoeuvre works, and Teal'c stumbles back into the ship safe and sound.

They get off the ship by beaming the SGC's gate up with plans to escape first to P3X-234 and then home to the Beta gate. It's a close call as all the replicators are attracted to the surge of energy when the gate materialises. Jack detonates the bomb as the ship enters the atmosphere and crashes into the Pacific, where we learn that there's a surviving replicator at the bottom of the ocean. (*Sidenote: I was actually surprised that there wasn't any tidal wave caused by this impact, but this is probably my own sensibilities speaking after the spate of Tsunamis in the past 7 years or so. This consequence just didn't seem to be considered at all when SG-1 made this decision.)

General comments:

Wider consequences of the Stargate program

The repercussions of crashing the Biliskner into the Earth's atmosphere are actually felt far and wide, significantly developing the storylines of the replicators and the Asgard while bringing into question the appropriateness of keeping the Stargate program within American jurisdiction. From the political perspective at least, crashing the Biliskner into the Earth's atmosphere marks the start of Russian involvement in the Stargate program after the Alpha gate was retrieved from the bottom of the ocean by the Russians, a storyline that's fleshed out in the S4 opener 'Small Victories' and revisited from time to time.

New enemies and allies

THOR : Their odds of survival in a new environment depend on numbers. They are currently feeding off the ship and replicating.
CARTER : What? Are you saying they are actually eating the ship?
THOR : Ingesting the alloys, yes. They will continue until they risk compromising the integrity of the hull. Then they will land in search of more raw materials.
CARTER : How intelligent are they?
THOR : Their capacity for learning is extremely high. Each entity is capable of individual behavior, yet they all act with a common purpose.
O’NEILL : What’s that?
THOR : Self replication.

Even if this episode hadn't been as spectacular as it could have been, it's fundamental in establishing the various threats that Earth and more directly, SG-1 will face in the coming seasons. But it also establishes the Asgard as a solid (though not always there) ally that battle an enemy that's just as dangerous as the Goa'uld, all of which will gain momentum in the coming seasons and come to a head in the last few episodes of Season 8. I'm a huge fan of the little grey men in the SG-1 universe and 'Nemesis' was a visual show of Asgardian technology and design - in austere black, red, chrome and silver - which inevitably lends itself to a comparison between Earth's meagre resources (at this point in time) and the resources of a more powerful ally. But there's also a kind of superciliousness in the way the Asgard deal with less advanced races in presuming that Jack was ready to spring into action to help the Asgard battle the replicators and pretty much get killed while doing so. But it's an arrogance that's recognised, confirmed by Thor's admission that the Asgard had brought this upon themselves when they brought the replicators on board the ship for study without fully realising the magnitude of their actions.

SG-1 and saving Earth

As the season finale, I thought the episode ends appropriately on a cliffhanger. Daniel's absence is rather conspicuous, made even more so simply because it's a finale where I actually expected a strong team showing. I also felt that there are several turning points in this episode. The finality of the ending scene however, doesn't resonate as strongly as it did, for instance, at the end of Season 1 where SG-1 defied orders to stop Apophis's attack on Earth. The lassitude with which Jack requests for the explosives makes me wonder if the motion of saving the Earth yet again has already gotten old - a feeling that's transferred onto the viewer. In any case however, going in blind the moment an ally calls seems to be a common recurrence that I see in the course of the show and a cost that Earth has no choice but to pay.

I loved the moment when Jack hauls Teal'c back into the ship with nothing but a reaffirming nod between them and I imagine this would have been a personal but significant justification of Teal'c's defection three years ago and his trust in Jack as his leader (which couldn't have been easy as a former First Prime who had legions of Jaffa under him).

Sam and Jack



Nemesis is one of my favourite episodes that I actually find quite shippy even without rose-tinted lenses as it brings the hallowed word 'fishing' into the whole equation.

O’NEILL : You know. Maybe it’s just me, but I thought that when one actually got some leave, one actually left! Look, Daniel’s recouping, Teal’c is off world visiting his kid somewhere. Personally I have a date with a little lake in Minnesota where the Bass grow *that* big.
CARTER : Really.
O’NEILL : Oh yes! What I am describing here, Carter involves a very special element.
CARTER gestures at equipment.
CARTER : This is fun to me sir.
O’NEILL : Well. If playing with your little reactor sounds better than exploring the lakes and natural beauty of Minnesota there’s not much I can do.
CARTER : Was that an invitation …sir?
O’NEILL : Nothing wrong with that is there? A couple of co-workers, friends if you will, fishing. It’d be fun.

Fishing is a standing metaphor that S/J fans and shippers love to use as an analogy of their relationship; it's something that's picked up again and again in the series, culminating in 'Threads' and 'Moebius' where we see both Sam and Jack fishing together. Again, many shippers choose to assume that Sam and Jack got together in S10's "Line in the Sand" after it is revealed that her password is "Fishing". At this point in time however, we have confirmation of Sam's feelings for Jack, and there's a hint here that he shows a matching interest. In this episode, I've always felt that Sam was on the verge of accepting that invitation just as Jack is beamed up to Thor's ship as the look on her face suggests more than interest in it. But like many moments between we see between them throughout the series, there is always a tantalising glimpse of an important moment that might (or might not) appear to be a turning point for the both of them, only to be whisked away too quickly before it can be made concrete. So moments like these, unfortunately, have to remain moments that are better explored in fanfic.

There are several ways I think, that both shippers and non-shippers can take Jack's reiteration that he and Carter are 'friends' and 'co-workers'. For non-shippers, it's something to take at face value, as Jack's 'A couple of co-workers, friends, if you will' statement will testify to. For shippers however, that's where the line becomes a bit more complicated. However you see it (whether Jack had really meant it innocently or not, whether fishing was a way to test the ground of their relationship, whether the way he looked at Sam was something he's not yet admitting to himself), it's a turning point in a relationship that to me, is slowly going past the bounds of platonic friendship which both Jack and Sam cannot or would not admit to yet.

The week that they spent on P3X-234 is a period that has always intrigued me. Depending on the depth of one's shippy lenses, there's so much to infer from what happened during this particular period. I personally thought that something significant happened between them - enough to set us up for the shippness that we get in S4.



In all, there's also a comfortable closeness between the both of them that I observe as they are both hunched over the ailing Thor, and this only seems to grow and grow, culminating in S4's D&C. Or is it just the angle of the shot?

[Ikorni]

Ha! I'm glad I got that out in one long post!

[iiradned]

Pretty good review.

As regards the ship, Rick and Amanda have both said that they were not going there and would have shot down any plots that went there, it was at least time (after 3 whole seasons) to at least bring up the issue of any romantic feelings between Jack and Sam. The fishing invite serves to give notice that there is at least something between them even if they can't/won't do/say anything about it.

[ErikaMariia]

I have no idea how do multiple quotes, so i'm sorry if this is confusing.. "...." are quoted parts from Ikorni.

Great review.

"Daniel's absence is rather conspicuous, made even more so simply because it's a finale where I actually expected a strong team showing."
That was unfortunate but I guess they had no choice since Michael Shanks actually had his appendix (how do you write it...) inflamed (?? I know nothing about medical terms, sorry). I din't know that prior watching and it confused me too.

"The week that they spent on P3X-234 is a period that has always intrigued me. Depending on the depth of one's shippy lenses, there's so much to infer from what happened during this particular period."
Well, they had Teal'c there too but who knows what happened during his kel'no'reems...

"In all, there's also a comfortable closeness between the both of them that I observe as they are both hunched over the ailing Thor"
I see that too Reminds me of the comfortable closeness between them in Crystal Skull briefing room scene.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

rachel500 does a good job giving her own take on the week on P3X-234.

[hlndncr]

So a long time ago I started writing ficlets for each episode to go along with our rewatch. Then I got behind and stopped. But the desire to write a shippy ficlet for each episode has not left me. So I thought I'd see if I could catch up. This is going to take a while. I stopped around mid-season 2, but no time like the present to dive in and see what I can do.

Here's one for Message in a Bottle:

Spoiler:

Sam had intended to return to the lab when she left the infirmary. She hoped maybe Daniel or the other base personnel working the problem would have something new they could try, but she wasn’t optimistic. Seeing Lt. Graham trying so valiantly to be brave as he was slowly being eaten away by the organism had gotten to her. The eager young man did not deserve such a horrible fate and she couldn’t erase the feeling it was her fault.

She wasn’t really paying attention when she reached the stairs, the elevators had become too erratic to use safely, and instead of going back up to the astrophysics lab on Level 19 she turned to walk down the stairs toward the gateroom. Without making the conscious choice her body had brought her to the other man who was also suffering terribly from the alien infestation she had unwittingly released upon the base.

The darkened room was cast in an eerie florescence from the UV lights reflecting off the organism snaked across the concrete walls blossoming out from the spike entrenched in the Colonel’s shoulder. His face and neck were streaked with the glowing purple parasite. His head was slumped forward, his body hung limp in obvious pain and exhaustion.

Teal’c stood in silent vigil beside him, occasionally mopping his fevered brow and speaking quiet words of encouragement. The Colonel barely stirred. It seemed to take all his effort just to take in enough oxygen from the thick, noxious air and continue breathing.

Sam’s heart ached to see him this way.

She placed a light hand on Teal’c’s shoulder, “How’s he doing?”

“He continues to endure bravely.” Teal’c looked upon his friend’s worn and tired face with admiration at his strength.

Sam nodded. She too was in awe of the Colonel’s capacity to withstand pain and bear hardship. “You must be starving.” Sam said, drawing Teal’c’s attention back to her. “Why don’t you take a break, get something to eat. I’ll stay with him.”

Teal’c’s first instinct was to protest. He had not intended to leave his friend’s side. But looking into the Captain’s eyes there was something there he couldn’t quite describe, longing perhaps or need. He withdrew.

Taking the cloth Teal’c left behind she reached up and gently daubed the Colonel’s moist forehead. He reached out his hand almost imperceptibly and she took it. The skin was hot and clammy to the touch. “Carter?” his voice croaked.

“I’m here, Sir.” She squeezed his hand gently. “I still don’t know how to stop all this.” It was an effort to keep her voice from faltering.

The Colonel’s thumb stroked the back of her hand. “You’ll figure it out.”

What if she couldn’t figure it out in time to save him? Sam thought to herself, but didn’t voice her fear aloud. Instead she said, “I’m sorry, Sir.”

“Not your fault, Carter.” Sam opened her mouth to protest, but the Colonel repeated, “Not your fault. . . . Just, fix it for me, OK?”

“I will.” Sam closed her eyes to keep back the tears that threatened to fall.

The Colonel seemed to have dozed off again. She stood there in silence, holding his hand until Teal’c returned and she saw Daniel in the control room with General Hammond signally her to join them. He looked excited or agitated anyway, it was sometimes hard to tell with Daniel. She left the Colonel’s side and run up the stairs determine to keep her promise.

[Sparky She-Demon]

Do you have one for Upgrades?

[hlndncr]

Do you have one for Upgrades?

No. I'm still working on Season 2. It will be a while before I get to Upgrades.

[hlndncr]

Family:

Spoiler:

Jack had already lost the jacket and tie as he wandered down the hallway to his bedroom. The shoes were next. Approaching the bedroom door he could hear Sam moaning in ecstasy.

“That feels soooo good. . . . Just a little harder. . . . Aaah! Right there; just like that. . . .”

Jack rounded the corner and leaned into the doorway. Before him, he saw Teal’c lying on the bed beside Sam, who was turned away from the door. He was working his hands across the muscles of her lower back.

“Some men would be concerned at coming home and finding his best friend in bed with his wife.” Jack drawled nonchalantly.

“O’Neill.” Teal’c turned on the bed to acknowledge the other man’s presence, though not his statement.

He then resumed his ministrations to Sam’s obvious satisfaction. “I was endeavoring to relieve some the pain Colonel Carter was experiencing from carrying the weight of your children.” The Jaffa’s tone suggested Jack should be feeling guilty, like it was entirely his fault Carter was pregnant with twins.

He was actually a little proud of that.

He did, however, feel bad about her being on forced bed rest for the next few month because of complications with the pregnancy. She was clearly uncomfortable and bored out of her mind to boot. He had tried to provide her with as many distractions as he could. He filled her laptop with schematics for all kinds of new top secret advanced doohickeys. He even let her take some conference calls with other scientists working through the Asgard database or reviewing discoveries from the Atlantis expedition. Although any contact from Dr. McKay was strictly prohibited, her blood pressure was already too high.

And of course she always had Teal’c or Daniel to keep her company when he was forced to be away for any length of time, which was far too often lately. After fighting off the goa’uld and the replicators, and helping his people take down the Ori and hold back the Wraith, he just couldn’t get that worked up over the Lucian Alliance. They were a bunch of bad guy amateurs and super villain wannabes.

Sam carefully rolled over to face her husband, her distended belly protruding forward, and Teal’c helped her into a more comfortable position.

“Was your meeting a success?” She asked as Jack came into the room and dropped two firm kisses on her stomach before moving to place another on her lips.

“As much as anything involving the IOA can be called a success.” He responded as he took purchase on the edge of the bed beside his wife opposite from Teal’c. It was getting a bit crowded with all of them on there. “I was able to convince them the planet’s not going anywhere anytime soon at least.”

“Well, other than the approximately 67,062 miles per hour the earth moves around the sun; meaning that the earth’s moved something like 300,000 miles since you left for your meeting this morning.” She beamed her signature megawatt Carter smile at him.

“You are so hot when you say things like that.” He leaned in to kiss her more thoroughly.

Teal’c lifted himself from the bed with haste. “I shall leave you now, O’Neill.”

“Thanks, Buddy.” Jack called after his retreating form without turning away from his wife.

Jack repositioned himself on the bed and they lay together for a time just sharing news about their day as Jack gently rubbed his hand over the swell of Sam’s abdomen where their children turned and kicked with vigor.

When she inquired about his schedule the next day Jack sighed heavily. “I’m afraid I have an all-day session with the President in the morning starting at 08:00.”

She returned the sigh. Supposedly he was semi-retired and only advising the President and Homeworld Command part-time these days.

“Which of my best friends would you like me to send to your bed tomorrow?” He teased another smile out of her.

Sam didn’t hesitate. “I think I’d like to have Teal’c come stay with me; he has a much firmer hand than Daniel.” A mischievous twinkle danced in her eye.

“Seriously, other men would worry.” Jack quipped.

“You have nothing to worry about.” Sam pulled him in for a passionate kiss.

[Sparky She-Demon]

Nice one again!

[hlndncr]

Nice one again!

Thank you.

Have another.

Secrets:

Spoiler:

Major General Jacob Carter was furious. He collapsed into the chair behind his desk at the Pentagon. He knew there was something going on in that mountain other than deep space radar telemetry, but he had no idea Sam’s reputation and career might be in danger.

He recalled the reception where he was introduced to Sam’s immediate superior, Colonel Jack O’Neill. The man’s smug, self-satisfied smile. The way he called her “Sam” and kept eyeing her with those sly, knowing glances. Acting more the charming boyfriend than a disinterested CO.

Jacob did not trust him. And when she had flat out refused to even consider his offer to get her into NASA, he was certain his daughter was being led down the garden path by a dangerous and beguiling snake in the grass.

How could George let this happen? Surely he must see it?

Intel. He needed more intel if he was going to get his daughter away from the SOB.

“Stacey,” he called to his secretary, “I need you to get me everything you can on Colonel Jack O’Neill. ASAP.”

It took a while to get the records sorted out. At first they had pulled up the files of a Colonel O’Neil with only one “L.” When Jacob finally got his hands on the service record he wanted he was not surprised to see a good chunk of it blacked out. Special operations. Top secret. Lots of questionable dealings he was sure. There were also a few choice reprimands. Insubordination. Failure to follow a direct order. A botched operation in East Germany, not his fault but still didn’t look good. And a friendly fire incident between members his team some while back. One dead. Another dishonorably discharged. O’Neill transferred. It looked like he had spent some time in an Iraqi prison too.

The whole thing made for some rather gruesome reading. And Jacob was left wonder what this guy was doing leading a team of scientists studying satellite data. There were so many things about this that stunk to high heaven. Not the least of which was that this guy reminded Jacob far too much of Sam’s ex-fiancé, Jonas Hansen.

“Oh Sam, please don’t tell me you’ve let yourself get involved with this guy.” Jacob muttered to himself, real pain in his voice.

Jacob didn’t know what he was going to do. Sam had basically told him in no uncertain terms to butt out of her life. He knew he wasn’t the greatest father, and he was sure he didn’t have enough time left to change that. But he could try and keep an eye on his little girl. He was on full medical retirement starting next week and the Air Force Academy hospital in Colorado Springs was a good a place as any to continue his cancer treatment. Maybe he could still be there when she needed him. Maybe he would last long enough to make sure she didn’t throw her life away on a man who clearly wasn’t right for her.

[hedwig]

Thank you.

Have another.

Secrets:

Spoiler:

Major General Jacob Carter was furious. He collapsed into the chair behind his desk at the Pentagon. He knew there was something going on in that mountain other than deep space radar telemetry, but he had no idea Sam’s reputation and career might be in danger.

He recalled the reception where he was introduced to Sam’s immediate superior, Colonel Jack O’Neill. The man’s smug, self-satisfied smile. The way he called her “Sam” and kept eyeing her with those sly, knowing glances. Acting more the charming boyfriend than a disinterested CO.

Jacob did not trust him. And when she had flat out refused to even consider his offer to get her into NASA, he was certain his daughter was being led down the garden path by a dangerous and beguiling snake in the grass.

How could George let this happen? Surely he must see it?

Intel. He needed more intel if he was going to get his daughter away from the SOB.

“Stacey,” he called to his secretary, “I need you to get me everything you can on Colonel Jack O’Neill. ASAP.”

It took a while to get the records sorted out. At first they had pulled up the files of a Colonel O’Neil with only one “L.” When Jacob finally got his hands on the service record he wanted he was not surprised to see a good chunk of it blacked out. Special operations. Top secret. Lots of questionable dealings he was sure. There were also a few choice reprimands. Insubordination. Failure to follow a direct order. A botched operation in East Germany, not his fault but still didn’t look good. And a friendly fire incident between members his team some while back. One dead. Another dishonorably discharged. O’Neill transferred. It looked like he had spent some time in an Iraqi prison too.

The whole thing made for some rather gruesome reading. And Jacob was left wonder what this guy was doing leading a team of scientists studying satellite data. There were so many things about this that stunk to high heaven. Not the least of which was that this guy reminded Jacob far too much of Sam’s ex-fiancé, Jonas Hansen.

“Oh Sam, please don’t tell me you’ve let yourself get involved with this guy.” Jacob muttered to himself, real pain in his voice.

Jacob didn’t know what he was going to do. Sam had basically told him in no uncertain terms to butt out of her life. He knew he wasn’t the greatest father, and he was sure he didn’t have enough time left to change that. But he could try and keep an eye on his little girl. He was on full medical retirement starting next week and the Air Force Academy hospital in Colorado Springs was a good a place as any to continue his cancer treatment. Maybe he could still be there when she needed him. Maybe he would last long enough to make sure she didn’t throw her life away on a man who clearly wasn’t right for her.

You should do a continuation of this one.

[majorsal]

Pretty good review.

As regards the ship, Rick and Amanda have both said that they were not going there and would have shot down any plots that went there, it was at least time (after 3 whole seasons) to at least bring up the issue of any romantic feelings between Jack and Sam. The fishing invite serves to give notice that there is at least something between them even if they can't/won't do/say anything about it.

aside from rick being one of the executive producers, that's a lot of kajumbas to be saying they'd shoot down any certain ideas. how about the actors *act*, and let the writers/producers do the other stuff?