Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[selene0789]

Sorry it took me so long to get this posted guys!

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

Sorry it took me so long to get this posted guys!

i rather have a good review by you that took you some time then a rushed one.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

but i agree that this one was definitely two-parter worthy. though i might really have to watch New Ground to see if there is any fallout from this episode.

[hlndncr]

Who's ready for Season 4?

Of course, we're still discussing the final episodes of Season 3, but it's about that time to start thinking about the schedule for Season 4.

After consultation with selene I'm going to take over organizing the schedule and she'll jump in and help out with reminders and keeping us on track.

We're going to try scheduling the reviews a little closer together because the discussion seems to last only a day or two even for the most interesting episodes. If it looks like we need more time for discussion of any episode I'll push the schedule back.

Here's the proposed schedule:

Tuesday, September 3: Small Victories
Thursday, September 5: The Other Side
Monday, September 9: Upgrades
Wednesday, September 11: Crossroads
Friday, September 13: Divide and Conquer
Tuesday, September 17: Window of Opportunity
Thursday, September 19: Watergate
Monday, September 23: The First Ones
Wednesday, September 25: Scorched Earth
Friday, September 27: Beneath the Surface
Tuesday, October 1: Point of No Return
Thursday, October 3: Tangent
Monday, October 7: The Curse
Wednesday, October 9: The Serpent’s Venom
Friday, October 11: Chain Reaction
Tuesday, October 15: 2010
Thursday, October 17: Absolute Power
Monday, October 21: The Light
Wednesday, October 23: Prodigy
Friday, October 25: Entity
Tuesday, October 29: Double Jeopardy
Thursday, October 31: Exodus

Look very carefully at these dates and make sure you can do the review on the date scheduled before you volunteer for any episode. Then send me a PM by Friday, August 16 with a list of your top five choices in order of most to least preferred. You don't have to take five reviews, I just want back ups. I won't schedule anyone for more than three episodes without talking with you first. If you only want to do one or two reviews then let me know, but still give me the list of five.

If you have any questions drop me a PM.

[brendini]

Great review selene!
I've always had another spin to the "I haven't acted like myself since I met you." line, which is a more positive one. I've always thought he could have been saying it (to chase her away) but meant that he's changed, in a good way, since he met her and they all formed SG-1. I keep wanting to write a story about it, but it just hasn't happened.
To me, the bigger slap in the face was Jack "retiring" to Edora. I understand why they had to do it (to get him off-world for the NID), but that's worse than the conversation in the hallway with him and Sam. Do we even know if Jack ever found out just how hard Sam worked to bring him back from Edora? And I really wish we had gotten more of a "reconciliation" scene than what we got.
Basically, I agree with you that this could definitely have been a 2-parter.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

shades of grey always made my top ten sg-1 episodes.

[Lucycat]

I loved Shades, I agree that it could have been expanded to a two parter! Only because I think Jack got in and corralled the bad guys a little too quickly, imo. He was there for what.. a day, maybe two? Covert operations should take longer than that!

And the comment Tobias made that Sam beat her out for a position at the SGC made me curious. There are lots of scientists at the SGC and if Tobias is anywhere close to Carter's skill level you'd think the Air Force would want her there, too. I mean look at Felger! Tobias is a lot smarter than that clown! So she probably also had some other black mark on her record.

But I make these comments without actually re-watching the episode, so my apologies if that was explained!

I agree with selene, I loved the briefing room scene at the beginning! And the earlier scene, on Tollana... Jack is so hot in his dress blues... whew!

[Lucycat]

Do you include one-sided attraction? Because Freya made a pass at Jack, Shyla wanted to marry Daniel, and Sam always turned down Barrett.

I think the one thing we can agree on is that Teal'c had the fewest and he always seemed to get it on with the girl he wanted at the time (Drey'ac, Sho'nac, Ishta, and that chick from Affinity - I try to forget that ep).

And Anise liked Daniel, so if counting one sided attraction, he gets another one!

I don't remember the character's name of Teal'c love interest in Affinity, I just know the actress is Erica Durance, who was excellent as Lois Lane in Smallville. I think she is also in Shanks latest series, Saving Hope.

I was kinda peeved with T because I thought he was in a relationship with Ishta at this point, and he doesn't seem the type to cheat... I guess they were on a break

[hlndncr]

The entirety of Affinity is icky and everyone is SOOOOOO out of character!

I feel like I need to shower after just thinking about that episode. *shudders*

[hlndncr]

Thanks for the great review selene! Here are some of my thoughts:

Shades of Grey

Favorite Scene
This may seem odd, but my favorite scene is the one right when SG-1 returns to Earth after Jack steals the device from Tollana. It’s so clearly tense, and Sam is just sitting there, staring at the device, like she can’t believe what just happened. She hasn’t asked Jack any questions, and Jack hasn’t offered any sort of explanation, but the minute Hammond calls on Carter, Jack is quick to jump in and absorb all of the responsibility.

As crappy as he behavior had just been, Jack is still a great leader.

I agree this is a great scene. The camera keeps cutting between Jack and Sam's reaction. She seems just as surprised and puzzled as we are as the audience.

When Jack first steals the tech Sam tries to subtly dissuade him from doing it. He just cuts her off. So back in the briefing she seems almost in shock, like this isn't the man I know. She even sort of chokes on her words when Hammond relieves Jack of command and orders her and Daniel back to Tollana to return the tech.

General
I love this episode. It’s very team-centric, and addresses SG-1 as a whole. It examines what makes SG-1 the SG-1 as we know it. When the dynamics change (when Makepeace takes command of the team), the small snippets of team interaction we see displays a very changed SG-1.

I do enjoy this episode and I think we get a lot of insights into Jack and his relationships with the members of his team, even though he is playing a role for most of the episode. We also get some first looks at the Jack and Maybourne show.

I admit I am a little distracted throughout this episode because Jack just looks so freakin' hot. Dress uniform, then civies, ruffleable hair, bad boy beanie. I think I'm losing the plot again.

In addition to that, the first time I saw this episode, it struck me as very abrupt. We’d gotten hints of this rogue NID unit earlier in the season, but it wasn’t a completely persistent arc (at least in my opinion).

I think some are a little to used to modern serialized dramas and soap opera like story arcs that permeate so much TV today. I don't mind that these stories come and go. This is a follow up to Touchstone and even referenced in the episode. That's enough of a connection to me.

In all, I really enjoyed it. We saw a glimpse of the old Jack, I thought, the same Jack who had first gone to Abydos, not expecting to return. He’s very bitter and so unlike the spunky Colonel we’ve gotten used to that it was delightfully jarring.

The idea for this episode came from RDA's desire to have O'Neill go darkside. JG didn't want to do too much damage to our hero so he decided it would only be temporary and have a heroic motivation in the end. I agree with his point. We know Jack has a dark past and we see glimpses into his dangerous and volatile nature in later episodes such as The Other Side and Red Sky.

Sam and Jack
This is the type of episode where people see what they want to. When Carter confronts O’Neill in the hallway, and he says “Now I’m acting like myself”, some people see Carter hurt and forlorn, bereft in the face of this new, harsher O’Neill. I don’t, personally. Do I see his comment as a dig against her? Yes. Did it leave completely at a loss? No. I didn’t see that. When O’Neill walks away, Carter is a little hurt, but more than that I think she’s puzzled. Like she knows this isn’t some new world view Jack has, and is trying to think of what could cause this sudden shift in attitude.

And to be honest, the hallway scene wasn’t as charged as it could be. O’Neill has a similar scene with each of SG-1: he stares down Teal’c in the infirmary, and cuts Daniel deep enough to get the archaeologist to leave his house. But where O’Neill treats Teal’c as a simple thug he can order around, and kicks Daniel right in the friendship, Sam’s exchange seems a little blasé by comparison. But then, maybe that’s the rub. He dismisses her, and doesn’t even give her the benefit of an insult. Like he doesn’t feel the need to break ties with her, because they weren’t there to begin with.

I think Sam was hurt by Jack's statement to her. It's really the same thing he tells Daniel, which is you don't know me at all and whatever we had wasn't real.

It really shakes Daniel up, but I agree that Sam is very puzzled and confused. Add to that his treatment of her after rescuing his butt from Edora just to have him supposedly go back and I think she's probably ready to kick him in the a$$. But she's too kind and stoic to do that so she sees him off in the gateroom. At this point I think she might be wondering if she does really know him anymore. It had to hurt.

For Jack's part I think he knows his friends well and ruthlessly pushes their buttons. He's hostile and dismissive with Teal'c. He convinces Daniel that he was played. But for Sam it was almost like a backhanded compliment. He is different around her. He just wanted her to think it was a bad thing.

In the end she did go along with Daniel's little jab about drawing straws. There had to have been at least a little desire to get him back for all the emotional turmoil he put her through.

At the same time she is the first one to welcome him back and she does sound relieved.

But that’s just me. Again, not everyone sees the same thing. I think it’s funny that TPTB chose to make Claire Tobias (one of the rogue NID scientists) look so much like Carter. I’d like to know what was running through Jack’s head when Tobias mentioned that Carter beat her out of a position at the SGC.

Tobias is fooling herself. I can't see how she was ever up for the same job except in the sense that she may have put in for it but did not have a prayer of getting is. Sam far out ranks her and Sam's previous experience with the gate leaves her far ahead of any competition.

I think Jack had his doubts about that statement too. He looked very skeptical and perhaps grateful there was no chance this chick could have taken the place of his Carter.

Overall
In conclusion, it was a very strong episode. It was so strong, in fact, that I wish this was made into a two-parter. For all the quality scenes we DID get, I’m always left wondering about what we DIDN’T see. Namely, when SG-1 met in the locker sans Jack, speculating about what might be going on. Or what happened when Makepeace was alone with Sam for the first time after Daniel so strongly argued for her to have command of SG-1. No doubt he felt threatened by the devotion the guys have for Sam.

And what happened when SG-1 went out into the field for the first time under Makepeace’s command? I’m curious to know Makepeace’s leadership style, and how SG-1 might have reacted to it. I can imagine that Daniel and Teal’c would subtly hesitate at Makepeace’s orders, until Sam nodded for them to go ahead. But I don’t want to just imagine it—I want to SEE it! And I think they could have easily added layer and depth to this episode by making two parts—it could have easily turned out to be a Heroes-quality episode, with all the stealth and the intrigue. SG-1 does 007!

I'm going to go against the trend and say that I don't believe there is enough story here for a two-parter. We get plenty of insight into the "new team" when T simply turns and walks out of the briefing room when Makepeace is introduced and later Makepeace reports to Hammond showing a real lack of respect for T and frustration with Daniel. I don't feel the need to watch more of that.

I guess they could have ratcheted up the tension for Jack trying to keep his cover, but that isn't enough story to keep me interested for another hour.

And passage of time is not a reason for another episode. Things did go down rather quickly, but I think they showed a good progression and pace with the story.

I guess I'm just not enamored of modern TV that likes to show hours of nothing happening and long, drawn out arcs. I'm good with a one and done story. It works for me.

[selene0789]

I'm going to go against the trend and say that I don't believe there is enough story here for a two-parter. We get plenty of insight into the "new team" when T simply turns and walks out of the briefing room when Makepeace is introduced and later Makepeace reports to Hammond showing a real lack of respect for T and frustration with Daniel. I don't feel the need to watch more of that.

I guess they could have ratcheted up the tension for Jack trying to keep his cover, but that isn't enough story to keep me interested for another hour.

And passage of time is not a reason for another episode. Things did go down rather quickly, but I think they showed a good progression and pace with the story.

I guess I'm just not enamored of modern TV that likes to show hours of nothing happening and long, drawn out arcs. I'm good with a one and done story. It works for me.

It's true that what was presented was fairly brief-- they couldn't have stretched it for another hour. But they could've created more story that would illustrate this a little bit better. For example, one subplot would be the rest of SG-1 doing their own little investigation into what's going on.

I'd also be interested in seeing what Jack's reaction was when the Asgard, Tollan, and Gen. Hammond approached him about doing the sting operation. How hard did he fight for his team to be read in? How strongly did he argue that they could be trusted? This is curious to me because when Jack is hiding behind the rock on the planet after making the drop, the camera zooms in on Teal'c, as if he could actually be the culprit. If we were watching from Jack's point of view, then he wouldn't have looked at anyone besides Makepeace. But since we did focus on Teal'c for that perilous moment, maybe Jack DID suspect him, on some level.

I also find it difficult to believe that the rogue NID trusted Jack as quickly as they did. I feel that if they had given the episode more time, we would've been able to see Jack really try to win the trust and get in with the less savory crowd, which would be necessary in order to get the information he needed. It should have been a tricky and dangerous game to play, and I would have really liked to see Jack test his ethical boundaries. How far *would* Jack go to get in with the rough crowd?

Also, I resent how we don't really see the human side of the rogue guys who had been stranded offworld in that secret base. I feel the rogue NID have pretty much been painted with a broad stroke of "baddie" paint. They're not part of the SGC, and are sneaky and conniving, so they're evil. But why did they make the decision to get in with the NID? Did they know going in that they'd be doing illegal stuff? Are they military misfits, otherwise blacklisted from active duty unless they got their action through the NID? For example, why is Tobias a Lieutenant? She looked like she should've been a Major, age-wise, Captain at the least. But she was a Lieutenant. Did she get in trouble at her previous command? Refusal to follow orders? Or was she wrongfully victimized, unable to rise in the ranks due to her gender, and this was the only way she felt she could make a real difference?

I would have also liked to see Jack & Co. push to find out more information about the wider network. If they had tried to use the sting operation to go further up the chain of the rogue NID, they might have made more of a dent.

And here's a plot hole... how did the Asgard know to show up on the planet where the drop was made? Was he tracking the artifact or Jack himself?

[hlndncr]

I think the difference is you like living in AU land. Watching the unfolding of the undercover operation, Jack living off-base and a reconstituted SG1 sounds too much like an AU fanfic to me.

It's also all background/build up stuff. The real meat of the story is what they showed. You can do more background stuff if you're looking at a serialized show (you got to fill in the hours and keep those story arcs alive), which is one of the reasons why I hate such shows.

And I really don't care about knowing the human motivations of the NID guys. That's not SG1, that's As the World Turns or worse, SGU. So you could make a show out of it, that's just not the show I care to watch.

I don't think the Asgard showing up was a plot hole. It's a detail. Jack signaled them. That's clear from the events. I don't need to know all the ins and outs because it's not necessary to the story. Good storytelling is knowing when to respect your audience's intelligence and let them fill in some of the blanks themselves. A plot hole is when the writers completely lose a key story point, miss an obvious solution or come up with something so out of character or improbable no one can follow it.

As for Jack watching T, he watched Sam for a good bit of time too. Perhaps JG was trying to build some suspense, but did he really think the audience would even begin to buy it was someone on SG1? The only logical, in character explanation was that Jack missed his team. He watched Sam first because he was drinking in the sight of her. (Shippy glasses firmly in place, thank you.) T was just in the frame so to speak as he was watching the spot where he left the stolen goods waiting for Makepeace to make his move.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

what about that "Second SGC Base" that Jack was talking about? do you really think there was plans for one or do you think that was just a ruse?

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

Old Shades of Grey Trailer

[Starship Trooper]

I liked the pace of this episode. It was punchy. Yeah, maybe it might have been fun for Jack to get in a little deeper while undercover, but it would've given the audience too much time to think about what was going on and ruin the surprise. Don't forget that when you see this episode for the first time, the audience isn't aware that Jack is working undercover until the end. So we, as the audience, are meant to react the same way as his team i.e. we ask ourselves - do we actually know this character? It was fun to be as confused and shocked as Sam, Daniel, and Teal'c.

And like others have said, we get to see a lot of Jack looking very hot. How the heck does Sam resist him all that time? Yep, this is definitely one of my favourite episodes.

I also find it difficult to believe that the rogue NID trusted Jack as quickly as they did.

I think Maybourne was just desperate to have someone of Jack's calibre working with his team. Maybourne has seen Jack's file and knows what Jack is capable of. Was it in Chain Reaction where Maybourne implies that Jack is a hypocrite because of the things he's done? For Maybourne perhaps Jack's behaviour isn't so OOT.

And here's a plot hole... how did the Asgard know to show up on the planet where the drop was made? Was he tracking the artifact or Jack himself?

I thought it was clear that the Asgard device was a plant? Maybe it was just clear in my own head though.

As for Jack watching T, he watched Sam for a good bit of time too. Perhaps JG was trying to build some suspense, but did he really think the audience would even begin to buy it was someone on SG1? The only logical, in character explanation was that Jack missed his team. He watched Sam first because he was drinking in the sight of her. (Shippy glasses firmly in place, thank you.) T was just in the frame so to speak as he was watching the spot where he left the stolen goods waiting for Makepeace to make his move.

I don't know... I think Jack would definitely have defended his team without question when the mission was first planned, but he looked very worried the moment he saw SG-1 come through the gate. Up until that point he didn't know which team the insider was on and now it seems sure that it's SG-1 and it does look like it throws him. There are four people, one of them is the insider, and he can't just assume it's Makepeace because Makepeace has been around the SGC for a while and Jack has obviously worked with him and thought he was trustworthy too. After all, Makepeace has been a good enough officer for Hammond to give him command of SG-1. I thought Jack looked visibly relieved when it was Makepeace who picked up the device. For me, it was the first clue that not everything was as it seemed and I started wondering at this point if it was all a setup.

Also, Jack's reaction in the gate room when Hammond is explaining the situation is definitely awkward. No doubt he feels badly about how he spoke to them and is perhaps a little worried about their reaction to him, or how much damage he might have done to the team, but I think part of the awkwardness was because, for a moment, he did have his doubts.

Extra note: Just thinking about this some more, I am definitely sure he had his own doubts. His team doubt him, he doubts them - tit for tat. But Jack's also said some pretty awful things, so they get him back by saying that none of them actually wanted to talk to him. Now they're all square and the audience is happy that their favourite team isn't irreparably damaged. In fact, I think they're a tighter team than ever at this point.