Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Ikorni]

That I completely forgot...there's a S/J Music theme?! Looks I'll really need to rewatch that bit.

[RamonaThePest]

I was going to post a link to it here, Ikorni, but there are many versions of fans playing it on youtube, but I didn't see any official (from the series) versions of it.

[RamonaThePest]

(I spoilered your post for length)

I think there's an issue with iOS because my iPhone is just as useless for posting. I can view the forums no problem but when I try and type I can't see anything, I can move the picture around, check what I've written and then I have to guess what it looks like again as I type. It seems to jump all over the place and can't make up its mind what I'm able to see, sometimes the left of the reply box, sometimes none of it. If I'm on my phone I try and say what I need to in as few words as possible, it makes it less painful.

Also, I remember the Galaxy tab wouldn't let my friend fill in the registration form for this forum, I had to do it on my computer and send her her username and password.

Thanks, NEI. I knew it wasn't just me.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

What?! No!!

I meant that Kawalsky would be there to pull her out of her funk, and wouldn't let her drown in grief. He'd be her pillar of support, her rock, grounding her. If he followed her to an alternate reality because "she's [his] best friend's wife", I doubt he'd let her slip away into the depths of her own despair. He'd be her friend. Friend.

i agree and you show some of that friendship in your reaching for the stars story when

Spoiler:

Jack is considered dead and is imprisoned in Iraq

[Ikorni]

I was going to post a link to it here, Ikorni, but there are many versions of fans playing it on youtube, but I didn't see any official (from the series) versions of it.

Oh, ok. I'll go look it up anyway.

[hedwig]

That I completely forgot...there's a S/J Music theme?! Looks I'll really need to rewatch that bit.

it is often used for Sam and Jack, but slight variations of it have been used for Jack and Daniel (in "Exodus" when they are flipping a ball back and forth, and Jack is talking about thinking Teal"c is dead). And it was used in SGA for Elizabeth and Simon, too. It has also been used in scenes that are quite emotional.

[iiradned]

There is a fic out there somewhere in which the Asgard managed to clone AU Jack, so that Dr. Carter and her Jack did get to be together after all.

Can you remember the title? Is it one of Denise's stories? I think I've read something like this and liked it better than Jack permanently dying.

It's been such a long time since I read it, I don't remember who wrote it or the title. I just remember that Jack got cloned and he and AU Sam got to be together.

The only fic I remember where an AU Jack getting killed defending the SGC and later revived (not cloned) and getting together with his Sam is Gen Varel's From Tears to Ashes, part 2 of what seems to be an abandoned trilogy - though the first two stories are complete. The only place to get them online was the now defunct Always & Forever.

[hlndncr]

Great review selene! Many wonderful insights that I agree with whole-heartedly.

I'll try not to be too repetative in my comments.

To start off, here's some behind the scenes info from the Companion books:

This ep was written by the original creators of SG - Brad Wright and Jonathan Glassner - so you know it's going to be good.

The reason for writing this episode was so that Sam and Jack could kiss. That's what they said, straight up no hemming and hawing. I wish they would have continued to be as forthright with their motives for our beloved couple.

Originally Dr. Carter was going to be in the AF but the AF advisor objected to having two officiers kiss; so they agreed to make AU Sam a civilian. In retrospect I think this was a good choice because it made the Sams more distinct characters and gives greater insight into our own J and S's relationship you just couldn't get if AU Sam had also been military.

The most difficult part of filming this ep according to director PDL was not the highly technical twinning shots but dealing with AT's hair. Taking the wig on and off was a big pain and no one was particularly happy with the process of the results.

I think we see large differences in personallity and action between our Sam and AU Sam. As selene pointed out, AU Sam tends to be more emotional or least less buttoned down than our Sam. Surely some of that is the civilian/military divide. I think there is also something to be said for AU Sam's relationship with Jack making her more confident about her softer side. I think later in the series when we all know our Sam and Jack are together Sam becomes much more like AU Sam. The love of a good man is an enabling and empowering thing, IMHO.

When J first confronts AU Sam in the infirmary I think he's confused, but I also get the feeling he's a little nervous about Sam's familiarity with him in front of General Hammond. He keeps glancing over in the General's direction. I get the feeling there's a little concern that Hammond might get the wrong idea about his relationship with Sam (or many come to a few right conclusions about Jack's secret desires).

Sam just looks like she's in total shock seeing this other version of herself on the screen, especially when AU Sam starts sounding like Jack.

I think a lot of this episode is about how conflicted Jack is. He keeps making these faces like he just really doesn't know quite how to handle this situation. I mean there are two Carters and one of them was married to a version of himself; this cannot all be a bad thing. Then again there are two Carters and one of the was married to a version of himself. He's caught in the middle of the Sams' little tif in the briefing room and trying to make peace between them. And that's about where I think he is emotionally too - caught in the middle of this argument with himself about his smart capable major who he relies upon and admires for her skills and her spunk and this ungarded loving (AU) wife who adored (AU) him. I think he wants both Sams in his life but just can't see how that would be possible.

I just love that wedding pic of AU S/J. It is so completely them. Jack has clearly made her laugh and "spoiled" the formal picture. He's looking all innocent about it and she is about to loose it. You can see why it would be the one Sam would keep to remember him by.

I've often wondered about that pic. It's perfect, but was it planned? I can see RDA messing around and AT not being able to stop laughing. I wonder if it was a happy accident because it really looks like a candid shot to me. And in fact, it bears a striking resemblance to another candid shot from the set many years later:

TBC

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

something to ask Amanda Tapping the next time someone is at a Con with her.

[hlndncr]

The scene where Jack goes to visit AU Sam is great because we see that Jack has absolutely no idea how to deal with a Sam that isn't safely ensconsed behind this invisible regs line.

When AU Sam says he doesn't even see his Sam "that way" she's right, but only because I don't think Jack would allow himself to see her like that. That is just too dangerous a rabbit whole to find himself falling down. But he does look over at that picture of AU Sam and Jack with a very enigmatic expression. And later, when Kawalsky brings up the possiblity of him and Sam he seems really angry about it, I think because he wants to protect Sam's reputation as an upstanding officers ("Sam is a major in my world."), but also because he doesn't really want to go there.

He tries to comfort AU Sam and you can see how conflicted he is. There's a part of him that wants to hold her and another part that knows he really shouldn't, both because he's not her husband and because he might like acting as her husband, which he just can't let himself do.

After reaching out to AU Sam and comforting her you can see that he's let his guard down as he runs into our Sam. He wants to feel this closeness with her and tries to encourage her to share a confidence with him. Sam is confused by it and not at all comfortable. He walks away saying, "goodnight Major" to himself I think as a personal reminder of where he really stands with Sam. They do not have a personal relationship right now and they can't. I think Jack's a little disappointed at that moment when he is brought abruptly back into his own reality.

But I don't think this is to say that Jack and Sam's relationship remains completely professional. I think Jack's feelings for Sam continue to bleed through as AU Sam becomes a convenient surogate. Look at the way Jack cringes when he sees AU Sam in pain and how quickly and decisively he works to allivate her suffering.

And AU Sam has also taken Jack as her surogate. For example, we know that Sam often enjoys Jack's quirky sense of humor, but she feels it necessary to hide her smiles. When Jack jokes about the Asgard, AU Sam immedately gives Jack an open smile of appreciation. She clearly sees her Jack in him at that moment and she doesn't have any need to hide her feelings. Again, Jack just laps it up. This is the Sam he knows is inside his Major.

In the end AU Sam and our Jack share a kiss. It's one of my favorites because it is both sexy and angst filled. After the kiss there is regret all around. AU Sam realizes that she can't will Jack to be the husband she lost. Jack realizes that what AU S/J had cannot be his, and maybe he wants it now a little more than he did before. And Sam has to be wondering what has gotten into Jack, and where does she stand on all of this.

Now just as a totally silly (and unshippy) aside, the cliche of AU T with the goatee and AU Apophis with the Van Dyke leaves me wanting to say in a sing song voice, "Evil T and evil Apophis."

[hlndncr]

Almost forgot my ratings:

Episode Rating

8: Dazzling
This episode dazzled me with its cleverness, emotional content, character development, etc. I thoroughly enjoyed watching it and I would watch it multiple times. It could even make a great movie!

Shippiness Rating:

9: Inspiring
The shippiness of this episode was deeply moving. It challenged my intellect and was emotionally inspirational, and gives me hope for the human race - and Sam/Jack. I am a better human being and shipper for having seen this.

[hlndncr]

You may get my thoughts on Learning Curve tomorrow because it is one of my favorite episodes and I just can't bear to skip it.

hedwig, I think I read that story too, but I also can't remember the title.

Can you all tell I'm on vacation? Still not enough hours in the day for shipping though!

[XFchemist]

something to ask Amanda Tapping the next time someone is at a Con with her.

Yup...though not me. Too shy!

[selene0789]

Virtual green to hlndncr for bringing up some excellent talking points!

You captured the struggle we see in Jack, trying to a) process two Sams in one room, and b) trying to reconcile the two of them and the feelings that arise in seeing this other "side" of Sam Carter.

[RamonaThePest]

You may get my thoughts on Learning Curve tomorrow because it is one of my favorite episodes and I just can't bear to skip it.

hedwig, I think I read that story too, but I also can't remember the title.

Can you all tell I'm on vacation? Still not enough hours in the day for shipping though!

Please. I don't want us to skip ANY episodes so please do post your comments on Learning Curve. I really enjoyed your thoughts on POV but alas, couldn't green ya.