Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Nefer]

I really don’t think that they understood how deeply offensive aspects of this episode are to women in general and to those of us who admire Sam’s character and feel that it damaged the integrity her character.

While I agree that a woman's input might not have hurt Stargate from time to time, I really don't get why the above quoted should be the case (even though I've heard this a number of times, I think AT even reacted to this on some Q&A panel) . What exactly is 'offensive' here? What is damaging Sam's integrity? That she dated some guy (other than Jack ? That she had sex? That she dated some guy who turned out not to be a perfect-in -every-way-prince-charming? I actually think that some of the character traits that were attributed to Pete are quite realistic. Many men are hypocritical in their values (I'm talking

So his wife was supposed to accept him and his job, but even early on we see that Pete isn’t inclined to give Sam the same respect.

). And when I first watched these episodes I noticed these things, but they didn't strike me (or Sam apparently) as that enormous. And I don't have a problem with Sam starting a longish relationship with him to see what will happen. The way I see it she was always in control of things and as soon she felt really uncomfortable she broke it off. No harm in trying, right?

I agree with all the points you made about how Pete is a bit manipulative and impatient and insensitive, but I do not understand why this should reflect on Sam so badly (or even why I as a woman should feel offended by this portrayal).

Although I have to say, the first time I watched Seasons 7&8 was on DVD in like three days, so the Sam/Pete thing was really short lived for me and probably more insignificant than for you who watched it over two years on TV.

And: yes, there was some bad writing there. Some of the choices they made in Chimera seem random and not really thought through.

Aside from the poor writing and character choices, I really can’t see it. Maybe it’s because I have been watching years of AT and RDA who can sizzle up a screen with a single look across the briefing table and that has jaded me. But as much as DD and AT may have gotten along personally, any romantic chemistry just didn’t come through on screen for me. In fact, it always looked to me just like someone dating her brother’s friend (as a favor) and it was quite uncomfortable to watch.

THAT is indeed weird. For me, the whole selling point of the story-line was, that they did not have that 'great' chemistry (which is not supposed to mean they didn't like each other, there was just no real passion). Although I didn't really find it uncomfortable to watch.

Especially since I agree with others who have said that Pete or any other relationship for Sam was not a necessary catalyst in ultimately bringing Jack and Sam together.

Not necessary, but I do think it helped. I think it made Jack wake up a little bit about his feelings. Just like Sam was reminded of how special her relationship with Jack is, when she saw him with Kerry (in the office especially). It happens that you like someone, but you don't really do anything about it as long as that person is single because it just doesn't seem 'urgent'. If you know what I mean. This is pure speculation of course, but it makes sense to me.

Of course we all agree here that everything happening in and around Threads and all the changes are factors for them to get together afterwards: Grace, Janet's death, Jacob's words, Jacob's death, Daniel dying (again), the Goa'Uld being almost defeated, (yes: Pete&Kerry in some way, too ). I'm sure I forgot loads of stuff, but there you go.

Whoa, that was rather longwinded. I hope it all makes sense. A little bit. Thanks for your insight hlndncr, it was a really interesting read, especially after a few days of nothing on this thread.


One more thing I have to add: I LOVE how no one here seems to doubt that they did get together after Threads. And I don't understand how anyone doesn't see it. Ts ts ...

[hedwig]

While I agree that a woman's input might not have hurt Stargate from time to time, I really don't get why the above quoted should be the case (even though I've heard this a number of times, I think AT even reacted to this on some Q&A panel) . What exactly is 'offensive' here? What is damaging Sam's integrity? That she dated some guy (other than Jack ? That she had sex? That she dated some guy who turned out not to be a perfect-in -every-way-prince-charming? I actually think that some of the character traits that were attributed to Pete are quite realistic. Many men are hypocritical in their values (I'm talking ). And when I first watched these episodes I noticed these things, but they didn't strike me (or Sam apparently) as that enormous. And I don't have a problem with Sam starting a longish relationship with him to see what will happen. The way I see it she was always in control of things and as soon she felt really uncomfortable she broke it off. No harm in trying, right?

A brief answer to this is that Sam continued to see Pete even after he did the background check on her, and then stalked (followed/whatever) all day long, and spied on her all night long at the stakeout, only to get himself injured when he crashed a classified, top secret op. And after all that, she walks into his hospital room, hands him a picture of the two of them dancing, kisses him, and then proceeds to tell him all about the stargate program. These are not the actions of the Sam Carter we've seen throughout the series until Pete. Sam is far stronger than that. It made her look weak and desperate (once again, in my opinion). I'm sure she forgave him for doing what he did, but I highly doubt she would have continued to see him after that. How could she trust him after all that? He made it very clear by his actions that he didn't trust her.

[Aveo_amacus]

Not wanting to speak for hlndncr or anything, I think its more that he didn't seem to trust or respect either Sam or her job (and yet seem to expect that from her)
- The sort of 'he's around today so he expects her to drop her job and hang out with him' etc.
and the not trusting her when she says 'classified'

I think its a lot of little things that build up in this ep, if he'd been on a case and stumbled across the shoot out at the end there wouldn't have been anywhere near the out cry; sure you'd get some shippers who can't bear to see S/J with anyone other than S/J but the ones who didn't mind that aspect (for the sake of driving forward that story line or not) were offended by the way the ep was handled in other ways, jmho

[Nynaeve506]

Sam doesn't have the best taste of men. Jonas, case in point. He was clearly a manipulative jerk with little respect for Sam and her intelligence. I don't think Pete is quite as far gone as he was, but he shows many of the same characteristics. Men like that are generally charming. I don't find it an affront that she dated him. I find it an affront that the writer's wrote him like they did.

I do find it interesting that in between here and Affinity we see multiple examples of just how connected S/J are and how little Pete is ever even mentioned.

[hlndncr]

Thing that I found offensive as a woman was the double standard we saw in the calliber of the relationships. Sam had some pretty miserable boyfriends and IMO Pete was the worst of the lot, while all the guys had these amazing, sexy women who they clearly did not deserve.

The other thing that I find deeply offensive as a woman is the way TPTB were laughing and joking about Pete's behavior. As a person who has suffered through a domestic violence situation I do not find controling, manipulative, paranoid and demeaning male behavior a laughing matter.

My views of how her relationship with Pete hurt Sam's character have absolutely nothing to do with her relationship or non-relationship with Jack. As I said, if handled properly I think a Sam/other relationship could have been an interesting storyline.

To understand why I think the Pete relationship undermined the integrity of Sam's character you have to know how I view her character at this point. I think Sam was a woman who spent a lot of her adult life trying to please men (her father, professors, COs, and boyfriends/fiancees). And from what we know of her relationship with Jonas she was in an abusive relationship (if not physically at least psychologically), but she got out. And throughout the series she's become more confident and independent. For me her relationship with Pete demonstrated a marked backward slide for her character to the pre-SGC Sam. They took a strong, intelligent, capable woman who could save the world with her mind (and occassionally her fists or a really big gun) and she didn't have to do it in skintight spandex and turned her into a victim who cowered at the thought of not being accepted or loved by a man that was very obviously beneath her.

I think some of the responses from TPTB and AT were a knee-jerk reaction to well-founded criticisms that they wrongly presumed were personal nature. I'm sure DD is a lovely man and I'm sure TPTB meant well. They underestimated the fan reaction because they undervalued their fans. (Something I think we are seeing again in spades with regard to SGU, but I won't get into that very OT can of worms here.)

[hedwig]

Thing that I found offensive as a woman was the double standard we saw in the calliber of the relationships. Sam had some pretty miserable boyfriends and IMO Pete was the worst of the lot, while all the guys had these amazing, sexy women who they clearly did not deserve.

The other thing that I find deeply offensive as a woman is the way TPTB were laughing and joking about Pete's behavior. As a person who has suffered through a domestic violence situation I do not find controling, manipulative, paranoid and demeaning male behavior a laughing matter.

My views of how her relationship with Pete hurt Sam's character have absolutely nothing to do with her relationship or non-relationship with Jack. As I said, if handled properly I think a Sam/other relationship could have been an interesting storyline.

To understand why I think the Pete relationship undermined the integrity of Sam's character you have to know how I view her character at this point. I think Sam was a woman who spent a lot of her adult life trying to please men (her father, professors, COs, and boyfriends/fiancees). And from what we know of her relationship with Jonas she was in an abusive relationship (if not physically at least psychologically), but she got out. And throughout the series she's become more confident and independent. For me her relationship with Pete demonstrated a marked backward slide for her character to the pre-SGC Sam. They took a strong, intelligent, capable woman who could save the world with her mind (and occassionally her fists or a really big gun) and she didn't have to do it in skintight spandex and turned her into a victim who cowered at the thought of not being accepted or loved by a man that was very obviously beneath her.

I think some of the responses from TPTB and AT were a knee-jerk reaction to well-founded criticisms that they wrongly presumed were personal nature. I'm sure DD is a lovely man and I'm sure TPTB meant well. They underestimated the fan reaction because they undervalued their fans. (Something I think we are seeing again in spades with regard to SGU, but I won't get into that very OT can of worms here.)

Gee. Tell us how ya really feel. And very well written. I agree with all of it.

I also have to say I agree about the part re the kind of women they gave the guys in the show. With the exception of Kynthia and Hathor, they gave all the guys what could probably be described as a somewhat grown up, mature relationship with women, and then they gave Sam what seemed to be a juvenile, cartoon character for a relationship. Sorry if that's hard on the character, but that's how I saw it.

[Nynaeve506]

The other thing that I find deeply offensive as a woman is the way TPTB were laughing and joking about Pete's behavior. As a person who has suffered through a domestic violence situation I do not find controling, manipulative, paranoid and demeaning male behavior a laughing matter.

I think the important piece though is that Sam WASN'T in a violent situation. Pete was manipulative (but I still don't think fully aware of it) and he overstepped his bounds in a serious way, but... but he wasn't abusive and he DID (as far as we know) reform. I'm going to argue he made a lot of amends to Sam and Sam chose to continue to give him a chance. I don't think they did anything wrong in the commentary by laughing about it. I dated a guy once who wasn't abusive, but was more in the paranoid, manipulative side (when I found out everything he did later, it was uber-creepy), but ten years later I can joke about crap he pulled and how totally stupid it was. It makes me feel better about my history. Maybe it makes the writers feel better about their mistake.

[hlndncr]

I think the important piece though is that Sam WASN'T in a violent situation. Pete was manipulative (but I still don't think fully aware of it) and he overstepped his bounds in a serious way, but... but he wasn't abusive and he DID (as far as we know) reform. I'm going to argue he made a lot of amends to Sam and Sam chose to continue to give him a chance. I don't think they did anything wrong in the commentary by laughing about it. I dated a guy once who wasn't abusive, but was more in the paranoid, manipulative side (when I found out everything he did later, it was uber-creepy), but ten years later I can joke about crap he pulled and how totally stupid it was. It makes me feel better about my history. Maybe it makes the writers feel better about their mistake.

I don't think that Pete was ever physically abusive or violent. I don't think he ever yelled or even raised his voice. But manipulating, controlling, and demeaning someone you are in an intimate relationship with is abusive. And personally I just don't find it funny - ever.

[hedwig]

I think the important piece though is that Sam WASN'T in a violent situation.

I don't think any of us are suggesting he was violent in any way. Though it certainly does get suggested A LOT in fanfics. I also don't think any argument has to be made that he must have made some serious amends in order for Sam to continue seeing him and give him another chance. We just didn't get to see any of that, and it would have been nice to see even a little bit of it ... just to understand why Sam would have continued seeing him.

[EvenstarSRV]

A brief answer to this is that Sam continued to see Pete even after he did the background check on her, and then stalked (followed/whatever) all day long, and spied on her all night long at the stakeout, only to get himself injured when he crashed a classified, top secret op. And after all that, she walks into his hospital room, hands him a picture of the two of them dancing, kisses him, and then proceeds to tell him all about the stargate program. These are not the actions of the Sam Carter we've seen throughout the series until Pete. Sam is far stronger than that. It made her look weak and desperate (once again, in my opinion). I'm sure she forgave him for doing what he did, but I highly doubt she would have continued to see him after that. How could she trust him after all that? He made it very clear by his actions that he didn't trust her.

Here I think it's worth pointing out that Sam has shown to be very forgiving when it comes to matters of secrets or trust. With Orlin she was obviously upset at him spying on her, but when she realized his intentions she fairly quickly move past that and came to trust him. We saw in 2010 that despite finding out the secret her husband had been keeping, she still trusted Joe to help them with her plan. And even with Jack, despite his actions in Shades of Grey she still trusted him as a commander and friend because she realized his intentions behind his actions.

So IMO, I can see Sam forgiving Pete for his actions, despite how wrong they were, because they were motivated by his interest in her. I'm not saying Chimera and Pete in general couldn't have been better written, the writers had to do some severe course corrections in Affinity, but I don't think as written it greatly weakened the Sam character.

Gee. Tell us how ya really feel. And very well written. I agree with all of it.

I also have to say I agree about the part re the kind of women they gave the guys in the show. With the exception of Kynthia and Hathor, they gave all the guys what could probably be described as a somewhat grown up, mature relationship with women, and then they gave Sam what seemed to be a juvenile, cartoon character for a relationship. Sorry if that's hard on the character, but that's how I saw it.

Here as well I think it's worth pointing out that, IMO, Sam did have love interests like Narim, Martouf, Joe, and Orlin who were quite mature and grown-up to me, and Jack as well for the most part. Pete did come across as more juvenile but he was the only one aside from McKay's one-sided crush, and the writers did try to balance that a little bit with the more serious on-the-job side. It wasn't dissimilar to Jack's swing of childishness to seriousness to me, the writers just didn't have as much time or interest to flesh it out.

On the other hand, poor Daniel got stuck with Shyla and Vala (and Reese in a way), two of the most immature relationships I think the show ever had, IMHO.

[Nynaeve506]

I don't think that Pete was ever physically abusive or violent. I don't think he ever yelled or even raised his voice. But manipulating, controlling, and demeaning someone you are in an intimate relationship with is abusive. And personally I just don't find it funny - ever.

And that's fine. Everyone has a different sense of humor or what they find acceptable. I was just disagreeing in that I didn't see anything wrong with the writer's jokes.

I still don't exactly get the demeaning part though I would agree with unknowingly manipulative and that he throws a fit - but I don't know that I would call him abusive. Childish. Immature. Full of bad judgment. But not abusive. But that's my opinion.

[hedwig]

On the other hand, poor Daniel got stuck with Shyla and Vala (and Reese in a way), two of the most immature relationships I think the show ever had, IMHO.

It was also suggested there was a very brief relationship with Kera (formerly Linnea) in "Past & Present". Sarah Gardner was probably the most mature relationship he had (of course, that was prior to the movie).

[hlndncr]

What can I say? I suppose I will always hate Pete with a passion and never be able to see any redeeming qualities in him.

*shrugs*

I'm just not as forgiving as Sam.

[hedwig]

HeHere as well I think it's worth pointing out that, IMO, Sam did have love interests like Narim, Martouf, Joe, and Orlin who were quite mature and grown-up to me, and Jack as well for the most part. Pete did come across as more juvenile but he was the only one aside from McKay's one-sided crush, and the writers did try to balance that a little bit with the more serious on-the-job side. It wasn't dissimilar to Jack's swing of childishness to seriousness to me, the writers just didn't have as much time or interest to flesh it out.

I've always seen those guys as one-sided "love interests". They were interested, but Sam wasn't. She was flattered by the attention. They were never boyfriends; they never even got close to being that. So, for me, there really were no "love interests". And I wouldn't call Orlin mature, either. Sure, he was supposedly many thousands of years old, but that didn't make him a mature guy.

Pete was the only one she ever had a full-fledged relationship with, and is the only one I actually count in terms of her having a relationship. Thus, for me, he was childish and rather one-dimensional.

Plus, with Narim, she told him she couldn't have a relationship with anybody until she could figure out who's feelings she was actually feeling (Jolinar's or her own), and as far as I'm concerned she was telling him there was never going to be anything beyond friendship between her and him. And she was a little peeved at him for using her voice for his house voice.

Had he survived, I think Joe would have made a good choice for an actual boyfriend.

[Akamaimom]

I've always seen those guys as one-sided "love interests". They were interested, but Sam wasn't. She was flattered by the attention. They were never boyfriends; they never even got close to being that. So, for me, there really were no "love interests". And I wouldn't call Orlin mature, either. Sure, he was supposedly many thousands of years old, but that didn't make him a mature guy.

Pete was the only one she ever had a full-fledged relationship with, and is the only one I actually count in terms of her having a relationship. Thus, for me, he was childish and rather one-dimensional.

Plus, with Narim, she told him she couldn't have a relationship with anybody until she could figure out who's feelings she was actually feeling (Jolinar's or her own), and as far as I'm concerned she was telling him there was never going to be anything beyond friendship between her and him. And she was a little peeved at him for using her voice for his house voice.

Had he survived, I think Joe would have made a good choice for an actual boyfriend.

'Cause, you know, she did actually marry him. Kinda.

BUT:

I couldn't stand Narim. I'm not sure that, even had he stayed on Earth instead of running away with the rest of the Tollans, she would have kept liking him. He was a short sighted person who lacked a certain creativity that Sam seems to enjoy.

And Orlin--talk about your stalker.

And the Martouf thing. I think that's kind of tacky--making a play for someone just because she last housed your last mate--and oh--by the way--she's hot. **shudders**

Jonas was just plain icky--I'll give you that. And Pete was supposed to be your basic Earth guy--but he was too flat. There wasn't anything interesting about him to keep me motivated to like him. I'm weird, I know, because I kind of thought he was cute--but then I go for that gallumping sort. I was the only one in the neighborhood who liked Peter DeLuise better than Johnny Depp on 21 Jump Street, too.

So, I guess that Sam's stuck with the uber-hot, interesting, deep, dark, playful, sweet, unassuming, wonderful Jack.

Which is exactly what she needs. Right?