Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Rachel500]

S8/Acting vs RL...

I do think RDA acted his socks out in S8. His performances are great - Zero Hour is actually a tour de force - he carries that whole episode really on just the strength of his performance. Given that Jack as a character is very self-contained in terms of his private emotions, that he manages just through a look or an inflection in his words give away what's going in Jack's head is incredible.

AT is also an incredible actor. I think her performances are incredible. Again, she's someone who can carry an episode just on the strength of her own performance - Grace demonstrates that for me - and her range is also fab. RepliCarter is not Sam; AU POV Sam is not Sam; Geek!Sam is not even the Samantha Carter we know and love although there are glimpses of our Sam peeking out...

And I do think the ship owes a tremendous amount to the way RDA and AT chose to play their characters, and their characters' relationship to one another, through all the seasons.

However, actors do draw on their own experiences to fuel their emotions and craft. How much or how little they do that and what they draw on really only they know. And unless they've opened up on a commentary we really don't know what was in their heads at the time.

In terms of liking each other...I think SG1 did have amazing chemistry as a team, Sam and Jack have an amazing chemistry as a couple, and I'm sure the fact that the four got on well in RL, that AT and RDA have a great friendship offscreen, that some of that seeped through onscreen. However, my other favourite fandom is one where from all the behind the scenes gossip/interviews, etc there were clearly issues in the cast, yet you'd never know it from the onscreen relationships which continued IMO to have great camaraderie and chemistry. So who knows really how much a cast that likes each other will add to a show above and beyond a cast that merely works together.

Past and Present

I admit my first reaction on watching was 'HUH?' Didn't Daniel just lose his wife? I did think they'd really screwed up airing this so soon after FIAD.

Now that the immediate surprise that Daniel gets it on with some other woman is no longer there, I actually do like Past and Present as an episode. I do think Daniel falls for Kera in part because of his grief for Sha're. He's hurting and Kera is there; she's smart, she's sexy and she wants him. It's a boost to his ego; sex an easy comfort for him. But I think one he'd regret after the fact.

I just love a lot of the non-verbal communication between Jack and Sam throughout this episode - in the library especially where they exchange looks when Daniel is flirting with Kera. The scene with Jack sticking his fingers in his ears when Sam works out Kera is Linea is very funny and one which shows how comfortable they are; how unaware they are of how they're reacting to each other. Because really, her taking his hands away from his ears is the action of a close friend, of a girlfriend, of a wife - not that of a junior officer with her CO.

As for the denouement, in reality I don't think it would have worked. I think Kera/Linea was ultra smart and would have worked it out for herself and found a way to have reversed her memory. Certainly it might very well have happened again on the planet but without Daniel to stop her from taking her own life when she finds out the truth and she can't live with it.

And on that cheerful thought, I think I'll get back to my Paradise Lost tag

[Alan]

Spoilered for length:

Spoiler:

S8/Acting vs RL...

I do think RDA acted his socks out in S8. His performances are great - Zero Hour is actually a tour de force - he carries that whole episode really on just the strength of his performance. Given that Jack as a character is very self-contained in terms of his private emotions, that he manages just through a look or an inflection in his words give away what's going in Jack's head is incredible.

AT is also an incredible actor. I think her performances are incredible. Again, she's someone who can carry an episode just on the strength of her own performance - Grace demonstrates that for me - and her range is also fab. RepliCarter is not Sam; AU POV Sam is not Sam; Geek!Sam is not even the Samantha Carter we know and love although there are glimpses of our Sam peeking out...

And I do think the ship owes a tremendous amount to the way RDA and AT chose to play their characters, and their characters' relationship to one another, through all the seasons.

However, actors do draw on their own experiences to fuel their emotions and craft. How much or how little they do that and what they draw on really only they know. And unless they've opened up on a commentary we really don't know what was in their heads at the time.

In terms of liking each other...I think SG1 did have amazing chemistry as a team, Sam and Jack have an amazing chemistry as a couple, and I'm sure the fact that the four got on well in RL, that AT and RDA have a great friendship offscreen, that some of that seeped through onscreen. However, my other favourite fandom is one where from all the behind the scenes gossip/interviews, etc there were clearly issues in the cast, yet you'd never know it from the onscreen relationships which continued IMO to have great camaraderie and chemistry. So who knows really how much a cast that likes each other will add to a show above and beyond a cast that merely works together.

Past and Present

I admit my first reaction on watching was 'HUH?' Didn't Daniel just lose his wife? I did think they'd really screwed up airing this so soon after FIAD.

Now that the immediate surprise that Daniel gets it on with some other woman is no longer there, I actually do like Past and Present as an episode. I do think Daniel falls for Kera in part because of his grief for Sha're. He's hurting and Kera is there; she's smart, she's sexy and she wants him. It's a boost to his ego; sex an easy comfort for him. But I think one he'd regret after the fact.

I just love a lot of the non-verbal communication between Jack and Sam throughout this episode - in the library especially where they exchange looks when Daniel is flirting with Kera. The scene with Jack sticking his fingers in his ears when Sam works out Kera is Linea is very funny and one which shows how comfortable they are; how unaware they are of how they're reacting to each other. Because really, her taking his hands away from his ears is the action of a close friend, of a girlfriend, of a wife - not that of a junior officer with her CO.

As for the denouement, in reality I don't think it would have worked. I think Kera/Linea was ultra smart and would have worked it out for herself and found a way to have reversed her memory. Certainly it might very well have happened again on the planet but without Daniel to stop her from taking her own life when she finds out the truth and she can't live with it.

And on that cheerful thought, I think I'll get back to my Paradise Lost tag

Beautifully put, Rachel! I wholeheartedly agree! It's a crying shame for me that I'm not able to green you for those words!

[Petra]

It's good to know that I'm not the only person on this board who thinks RDA's performance in season 8 was just as good as in earlier seasons. Although to be honest I always associated Jack's behaviour in this final season (hey, it is final for me ) with his promotion and trouble in the galaxy in general rather than with Sam. Hmm, I'll have to think about it..

PAST AND PRESENT

Again, I'm in agreement here. It's rather a "meh" episode for me. It has a great idea, a few really nice character bits, good dialogues (I'm rewatching season 10 for another thread and it made me realise/appreciate more how natural were dialogues in earlier seasons) but the "resolution" and all the plotholes let it down. Plus the actress playing Ke'ra annoys me, I don't know why.

Since I also see Daniel acting this way because of his grief I don't have a problem with this aspect of the episode. However I think Daniel acts like a jerk from the moment he hears that Ke'ra and Linea are the same person. That stunt he pulled at the debriefing...?

Ok, back on-topic.

I just love a lot of the non-verbal communication between Jack and Sam throughout this episode - in the library especially where they exchange looks when Daniel is flirting with Kera. The scene with Jack sticking his fingers in his ears when Sam works out Kera is Linea is very funny and one which shows how comfortable they are; how unaware they are of how they're reacting to each other. Because really, her taking his hands away from his ears is the action of a close friend, of a girlfriend, of a wife - not that of a junior officer with her CO.

Well said. I haven't seen season 3 in years and watching how comfortable Jack and Sam are around each other is incredible. I don't know how can anyone watch the scene in the lab with Jack's "singing" and claim that they aren't even friends. It's another episode that drives home how similar they are in their thinking and how well they know each other. It's a pleasure to watch.

On a totally shallow note, I thought AT/Sam looked really beautifull in the above scene. I don't know if it was lighting or hair style or something else but she was stunning.

[JenniferJF]

It's good to know that I'm not the only person on this board who thinks RDA's performance in season 8 was just as good as in earlier seasons. Although to be honest I always associated Jack's behaviour in this final season (hey, it is final for me ) with his promotion and trouble in the galaxy in general rather than with Sam. Hmm, I'll have to think about it..

I would agree it's partly due to trouble in the galaxy, but they've been in terrible situations before and it never seemed to get him as generally down as he is in S8. Plus, frankly, often in S8 its being around Sam which seems to directly effect his mood (sometimes good, sometimes bad) which indicates to me it's related to her specifically. I also think it's partly because of his new promotions, but not simply. I think because of his promotion, he's losing his friends - his team. And really, this is part of losing Sam to Pete. Because the irony is he's losing her both professionally and personally at the same time. Losing her completely.

The other reason I don't think it's simply his promotion is his mood radically alters by Moebius - even by the last scene in Threads.

So, yes. I don't think his dark mood is entirely caused by Sam. But I do think, not having her as much in his life anymore, losing her both professionally and personally, makes everything else that much more impossible to bear, because he's more alone... I think to the scene in WoW when simply having her sitting talking to him brightens his mood. And I think that's why, at the beginning of S8, despite the fact professionally I'm sure he has to deal with more crap in DC than he ever did at the SGC he doesn't seem depressed or upset but almost bemusedly resigned (I'm doing this.. should be miserable.. but not so much...)

[EvenstarSRV]

It's good to know that I'm not the only person on this board who thinks RDA's performance in season 8 was just as good as in earlier seasons. Although to be honest I always associated Jack's behaviour in this final season (hey, it is final for me ) with his promotion and trouble in the galaxy in general rather than with Sam. Hmm, I'll have to think about it..

I didn't know until after I'd seen most of SG-1 that RDA had cut back in S8, so I attributed Jack's behavior in S8 with him being out of his comfort zone being a general and in charge of the SGC, and dealing with the galactic troubles from that perspective.

The only times I really associated his discomfort/mood that season with Sam were those scenes in Affinity and Threads. I guess for me, a scene or moment with Sam and Jack has to be rather obviously related to romantic feelings for me to associate ship with it. Otherwise I usually just consider it to be part of their friendship.

[Rachel500]

S8 - Jack's arc

I come down somewhere in the middle between the views expressed. Jack's arc through S8 for me was him having to deal with his new job; realising that he had a much larger 'team' to take care of than SG1; struggling to handle sending SG1 out into the galaxy without him and getting the balance between his friendships with them and his responsibility to the bigger picture right...

There's a whole series of episodes that focus on that element with Jack starting with Lockdown, through Zero Hour (which really showcases it), through the episode with the Goa'uld poison where Jack can't make the decision to fire on the ship with Sam and Daniel on it, through Icon where he gives into Daniel's pleading and Daniel ends up stranded, through PU where he's overriden by Hammond on Daniel going on the Atlantis mission, through Gemini where he allows himself to be swayed by Sam's arguments...even in Reckoning and Threads he's putting his team first (he won't give up on Teal'c, refuses to consider Daniel is dead)...

However, given that I do believe Jack is in love with Sam through S8, I do think some of Jack's angst on balancing SG1/decision making is to do with his deeper feelings for Sam in particular. It seems to be that their promotions do add an extra barrier between them, as though their working relationships and military ranks have been reemphasised. Add to that Sam's agreement to marry Pete, Jack's decision to let her go and later, his decision to get involved with Kerry, and I do think Jack's personal angst around his love life plays a part in his S8 struggle to balance his professional responsibilities and his personal feelings.

[Zoser]

Also, I agree that AT's acting was phenomenal. Sam really does wear her heart on her sleeve, which is why I think so many people feel like she was pining away for Jack more than he was for her. I don't think that's true at all- you just have to watch him more closely.

For that I'd need a microscope!!

[Nynaeve506]

In case anyone is wondering I'm getting ready to watch the ep to start our discussion... so soooooon it will be here

[Petra]

For that I'd need a microscope!!

C'mone, he's not that small..

[Nynaeve506]

INSERT VERY SCARY HOT GRAPHIC HERE
"Jolinar's Memories"

Summary:
It's just another seemingly normal day at the SGC when the ring starts up and they get a message from the Tok'Ra. Marty and couple of other goons come through and tell them to go to Hell. Literally. AKA Netu. Jack makes some jokes, but Jacob's on the line so of course they go - through the Stargate, into a ship, through hyperspace, all the way to Netu. During their trip Marty works on getting Sam to remember how Jolinar escaped (since she's the only one who ever has). Lots of unpleasant memories and they get there, go down in pods, get captured, find Jacob! and try to figure out how to get out (to which Sam remembers Jolinar getting her freak on with Bynar :: shudders :: ). Bynar has Sam brought to him, they have a little chit chat while down in the pit Jacob and the gang talk about ring devices and such. In the mean time Bynar decides to do some torturing BUT before he can BAM shot in the chest. Sam is sent back down to the pit, the denizens riot and they decide, hey, let's escape! They get back to the ring room and Marty's working some awesome crystal tricks when the First Prime breaks in and we find out it's APOPHIS *gasp* aaaaand roll credits

Random thoughts:
This place is supposed to be as hot as hell - why were they wearing JACKETS? And even more importantly - why was Sam wearing a long sleeved black t-shirt underneath?? You'd think they were headed someplace a little more chilly....

Shipper thoughts:
This episode was full of S/J subtle and not so subtle moments - from the Teaser to the end. We have at the very beginning the two of them in the gateroom and when they hear it's the Tok'Ra, Jack gives Sam a really sweet smile (and one that would look very wrong if he gave Daniel) and goes "Maybe it's Dad." Throughout the entire episode he's looking at her, watching her, trying to act like he's not hovering, but while sometimes he keeps a physical distance, his mind is completely focused on her. When Hammond gives them a go and tells them to bring Jacob back, Jack speaks up, looking at Sam, and confidently says they will. On the Tel'tac as Marty makes her struggle through memories, Jack looks pained to see her deal with her mother's memory (he doesn't know it's that one) and very uncomfortable when she remembers Jolinar and Martouf's last night together.

Later when they're sleeping, Jack's the first up and the first to tell Martouf to stop and the first to have a chat with Martouf about pushing Carter. In fact, he says to Marty "Look, one, Carter's not going to let you go down there without her and two, I'm not going to let that happen." He's INCREDIBLY protective of her. When they get shot down in pods, Carter's the first name off his lips (one could argue he's going alphabetically, you know how he is). When she's with her father, he watches her, and you can tell he's feeling more than he should (whether he realizes it or not).

Again, the protective urge comes out when they come to get Sam - he doesn't come out and say "not her" but instead works on goading the guards as if to take their attention off of her and make them so pissed at him that they go after him instead (if there are any ill intentions). When she makes the case to go, he let's her go reluctantly, but it's telling that his eyes stay fixed on the iron door even after she's gone. Later when he hears screaming, he flinches... he's worried. I also noticed in the scene when she comes back, he's sitting closest to the door, as though he's waiting for her return.

Implications for S/J:
I think this is where we see Jack's growing feelings for her, not just attraction. It's almost like he fights himself - he sits far away from her, but he can't stop watching her. He's trying to sit still but he's twitchy and jumps at the first sign that she might be in distress. He's never been like that with Daniel (and he's a civilian!). I wonder if he's struggling with how he's feeling and at the same time, not wanting to do a disservice to her as a woman and a fine officer. We definitely see his unprofessional feelings interfering with his decisions (like her going to Bynar - I don't think he would have done that if they'd gone after Marty or Daniel). This episode is one we can point back to when he admits later to "caring about her a lot more than he's supposed to". I don't know that he's even fully aware of those feelings although I would say that here is where he must have started to have SOME inkling that he was dealing with her differently. She was first on his mind in most situations.

On the flip side - Sam had a few moments... the first one I noticed she rolled her eyes when she found out about having to travel by ship (almost a "great, I knew there would be something") - something that also irritated Jack. Then, when she was being taken to Bynar, she looks at Jack and asks him to take care of her father. I don't think Jack was first in her mind with her dad being hurt, but it's interesting that her instinct points her to him. Just a thought.

Favorite Scene:
I don't know that I can pick! There so many great moments where Jack was just totally watching and hurting for her.

Favorite Line:
Daniel wins this one with two:
"No one ever asked her how she escaped from an inescapable prison?!" (I love his disbelief)
And then later:
Martouf: The pods are launched at a very high velocity.
Daniel: And that's supposed to make me feel better how? (great facial expressions!)

[JenniferJF]

INSERT VERY SCARY HOT GRAPHIC HERE
"Jolinar's Memories"

I think it was on the other thread, but I mentioned recently that, IMHO, this episode (and TDYK) are not only among my favorites, but this one I think is a turning point in Sam and Jack's relationship. I think she starts to see here the real difference between Martouf's rather shallow love of her/Jolinar in her (regardless of what he says) and Jack's very real deep down *caring* for her. I'm not even sure it's conscious at this point, but I do think it's the events of this episode - most especially the difference between Martouf and Jack whether realized or not - that brings Sam to the point she's at in Pretense of telling Narim she has to figure out what feelings are really her own before she can start to have any kind of real relationship. I think (and I think the events of 100 Days backs this up) Sam's own emotions are starting to wake up, and the more real her own true feelings become for a certain Colonel (though again, probably not realized until 100 Days), the more I think she comes to understand hers for Martouf (and Narim - remember that emotional doohickey) aren't the Real Thing.

BTW, this is one of those episodes which, when it comes up on my randomized playlist, I can recognize simply by the spinning of the Stargate at the beginning

[Rachel500]

I think it was on the other thread, but I mentioned recently that, IMHO, this episode (and TDYK) are not only among my favorites, but this one I think is a turning point in Sam and Jack's relationship. I think she starts to see here the real difference between Martouf's rather shallow love of her/Jolinar in her (regardless of what he says) and Jack's very real deep down *caring* for her. I'm not even sure it's conscious at this point, but I do think it's the events of this episode - most especially the difference between Martouf and Jack whether realized or not - that brings Sam to the point she's at in Pretense of telling Narim she has to figure out what feelings are really her own before she can start to have any kind of real relationship. I think (and I think the events of 100 Days backs this up) Sam's own emotions are starting to wake up, and the more real her own true feelings become for a certain Colonel (though again, probably not realized until 100 Days), the more I think she comes to understand hers for Martouf (and Narim - remember that emotional doohickey) aren't the Real Thing.

I really agree with this especially the bolded bits. And I also think JM (and TDYK) is really where Sam sorts out for definite what is Jolinar and what is Sam - especially in regards to Marty. But I also is where Marty gets a clue that maybe he's put the memory of Jolinar on a pedestal and finally gets that Sam isn't Jolianar.

What I love is Jack's absolute support of her throughout. He is always there for her; he agrees to the mission unquestioningly - he worries about Marty's far too friendly overtures - he takes Marty to task when he pushes Sam - he believes in Sam enough to go on the mission even though she hasn't remembered the escape route - he lets her lead - he tries to protect her from the guards.

In some ways, Jolinar's Memories/TDYK for me is about showing how Marty's showy/touchy-feely love for her is an illusion while Jack's more understated simply being there for her is real and solid.

[EvenstarSRV]

I really agree with this especially the bolded bits. And I also think JM (and TDYK) is really where Sam sorts out for definite what is Jolinar and what is Sam - especially in regards to Marty. But I also is where Marty gets a clue that maybe he's put the memory of Jolinar on a pedestal and finally gets that Sam isn't Jolianar.

What I love is Jack's absolute support of her throughout. He is always there for her; he agrees to the mission unquestioningly - he worries about Marty's far too friendly overtures - he takes Marty to task when he pushes Sam - he believes in Sam enough to go on the mission even though she hasn't remembered the escape route - he lets her lead - he tries to protect her from the guards.

In some ways, Jolinar's Memories/TDYK for me is about showing how Marty's showy/touchy-feely love for her is an illusion while Jack's more understated simply being there for her is real and solid.

Perhaps it's my non-shipper perspective, but I've never gotten a Jack vs. Martouf vibe from this episode and TDYK in regards to Sam. Jack did get on Martouf's case about pushing Sam, but both men (as well as Daniel and Teal'c) are supportive of her in their own ways. I don't really see them as illusion vs. real, just different.

But I definitely agree that this is where Martouf really separates Jolinar from Sam, and sorting through the memories helps Sam further differentiate her feelings from Jolinar's.

Overall I love this two-parter. Probably my favorite scenes in this episode are the ones on the Tel'tac when Sam is first sorting through Jolinar's memories, and when the gang finds Jacob in the pit, esp Sam's look of relief and concern.

[Rachel500]

Perhaps it's my non-shipper perspective, but I've never gotten a Jack vs. Martouf vibe from this episode and TDYK in regards to Sam. Jack did get on Martouf's case about pushing Sam, but both men (as well as Daniel and Teal'c) are supportive of her in their own ways. I don't really see them as illusion vs. real, just different.

But I definitely agree that this is where Martouf really separates Jolinar from Sam, and sorting through the memories helps Sam further differentiate her feelings from Jolinar's.

Overall I love this two-parter. Probably my favorite scenes in this episode are the ones on the Tel'tac when Sam is first sorting through Jolinar's memories, and when the gang finds Jacob in the pit, esp Sam's look of relief and concern.

Oh, there is no overt Jack vs Martouf rivalry as such - but I do think there is a subtext.

If you go on the basis (as I do) that I think Jack was aware that he cared about Sam a lot more than he should at that point but had buried it to the back of his mind, I do think he subconsciously views Martouf as a rival because Martouf had made his interest in Sam (or rather his fascination with her on learning she carried Jolinar) fairly clear during their previous encounters; he was very touchy-feely with her in The Tok'ra and here in JM too. There are a couple of beats - in the corridor when Martouf takes Sam's hand where Jack looks very uncomfortable, where he looks uncomfortable during the retelling of the memory, and the beat where he stops Martouf from pushing her which all kind of give away Jack isn't comfortable with Marty being too close with Sam.

However, I don't think Martouf considered Jack a rival at all on any level. He was too preoccupied with his own feelings to consider either Sam's or Jack's, IMO. Here for instance even though he admits that he knows Sam is discomfitted by his previous relationship with Jolinar, he directs her to a memory of him with Jolinar where clearly there was intimacy. He could have directed her to a different memory where Jolinar was happy but not intimate with him. He's just too wrapped up in his previous relationship with Jolinar to really *see* Sam for herself and not what she carries of Jolinar until the events on Netu force him to realise the difference (particularly the scene in TDYK where he is faced with Apophis trying to pass Sam off as Rosha/Jolinar). For me, Martouf isn't so much supportive of *Sam* in JM as he is of *Jolinar's last host*.

I also don't think Sam consciously has Martouf and Jack as love rivals in her head either during the events.

I think she begins to realise with the memory device what of what she feels when she's around Martouf is Jolinar. And I think she starts to work out that the familiarity she feels, the love and caring she feels towards Martouf and what he shows for her is rooted in Jolinar. And I think she begins to understand her own feelings are not the same. She cares about him but she doesn't love him the way Jolinar did, and she begins to realise that he doesn't care/love her the way he does/did Jolinar (and that's what I meant by her realising Martouf's more showy/touchy-feely love/caring for her wasn't so real).

In comparison, as she looks back in retrospect post the mission, I think Sam would recognise Jack's more understated, quiet just *being* there for her (along with Daniel and Teal'c) as being real caring for *her*, for Sam as herself. And I think she would appreciate that even if at that point she doesn't ascribe any romantic connotations to it.

Hope that explains myself a little bit better.

[Nefer]

Hey Guys and Gals!

Longtime lurker coming out of the woodwork. I just wanted to tell you how much I enjoy this discussion (I really only signed up for this thread). I love the way you people see things I don't ;-) I haven't quite caught up with the whole thread, but I will.

Seeing as I don't have anything important to say at the moment: carry on! Eagerly awaiting new posts.

*Cheers*