Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Aveo_amacus]

Agreed Rachel! Another thing which is part of this story line for me is the next episode, haven't seen it in ages but it really undermines this ep for me, they could have at least had a *few* eps in between FCOL!!!

[Zoser]

Hopping back to RoE quickly:

With the calling them kids thing, Jack calls all of SG-1 "Kids" including Teal'c, who is 60+ years older than him and Sam, who he's in love with... although these guys are all young I don't necessarily see that the use of that word is giving too much away.

I was going to say that!

[Zoser]

I was kind of bored by Forever and a Day. It was *yawn* they remembered Sha're and want to get rid of her. What's next - get rid of Daniel?

I did like Jack and Sam together at Daniel's. Daniel sees through their little charade at work.

I did rather like Shifu story - although I'm not crazy about the glowy ascended ones.

[VSS]

I didn't realize almost the entire episode was a hallucination that Daniel had as he was being tortured by the hand device. I knew some parts of it were, obviously, but I thought he was jumping in and out of dreams. As it turns out, they were dreams-within-a-dream, like the kiss in Grace. Cool! I always learn something from you guys!

Also, I agree that AT's acting was phenomenal. Sam really does wear her heart on her sleeve, which is why I think so many people feel like she was pining away for Jack more than he was for her. I don't think that's true at all- you just have to watch him more closely.

Recap:
We open with SG-1 doing what it does best - saving people (shouldn't they wear tights and capes by this point?). They save the Abydonians and Daniel runs up to a pretty little tent to find Sha're aka Amonet. After taking out her rather poor excuses for guards (they appear one at a time and get taken down by DANIEL with a handgun.

I also noticed in the beginning how incredibly long it took him to change out the magazine in his weapon. I think it was to illustrate that he still wasn't really a soldier, somewhat separate from the rest of the team.

Random thoughts:
I've always been a bit baffled as to why Teal'c went for the chest shot. It was this that sold the episode to me as a "Let's wrap up that Sha're story line" type thing. Don't get me wrong, I actually like this episode (for reasons I'll go into in a moment). It just seemed a little... trigger happy for Teal'c to take her down.

I think Teal'c just really wanted her dead. A wounded goa'uld is still capable of using that hand device. Really, I think he was desperate- and I don't think he believed there was any of Sha're left anyway.

I find it also telling that in his dream, Jack and Sam are present at his apartment (both are wearing black leather jackets) together and they leave together. He sees a connection between them and his subconscious keeps it consistent (they're also together at his bed side when he wakes up).

Huh. i really hadn't noticed this but you're definitely on to something. And they're dressed identically again in the infirmary, and when they enter the tent at the conclusion of the ep, they're identical right down to their footsteps and stance, it's either choreographed or one heck of a coincidence. Of course, at that point Daniel's awake but the framing is pretty obvious. In that final shot it's very striking and they look like twins. I have to wonder, though- is it him seeing him as a couple or, again, that they're more similar to each other and he's the odd man out? The non-soldier.

[es!]

Time to delurk here

Also, I agree that AT's acting was phenomenal. Sam really does wear her heart on her sleeve, which is why I think so many people feel like she was pining away for Jack more than he was for her. I don't think that's true at all- you just have to watch him more closely.

This is a good observation, and I agree with you. I see more longing from Jack's side than from Sam's. *sigh*

[sg-1fanintn]

Also, I agree that AT's acting was phenomenal. Sam really does wear her heart on her sleeve, which is why I think so many people feel like she was pining away for Jack more than he was for her. I don't think that's true at all- you just have to watch him more closely.

This is soooo true. And I've said it before (not recently), but I think he was really pining for her throughout S8. So many people said Jack wasn't the same, and accused RDA of "phoning in" his performances. But instead, I think the difference in Jack was pain. He hated flying a desk while his team went out into the field. He was worried that something would happen to his team, and he wouldn't be there to save them. And as Sam grew closer to Pete, Jack saw any chance he might have with her in the future slipping away.

Jack was having a tough time that season, and RDA played it perfectly. His reactions are just more subtle; that's all. You have to know the character and watch him closely to see his emotions. The character learned early on to keep a poker face, as part of his special ops training, and he just doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve. But the emotions are there for those astute enough to observe them.

[JenniferJF]

Jack was having a tough time that season, and RDA played it perfectly. His reactions are just more subtle; that's all. You have to know the character and watch him closely to see his emotions. The character learned early on to keep a poker face, as part of his special ops training, and he just doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve. But the emotions are there for those astute enough to observe them.

I think that's true for Jack post-S8, too, when a lot of folks also complain about changes in his personality. If you don't *see* the ship, and understand the whole character development arc for Jack in S8, and what it really meant to him as a character when he went in to put his arm around Sam in Threads while Jacob was dying.. and then to go fishing with her.. You just *aren't* going to be able to understand why the Jack we see after that is more serious and calm in one moment, then almost off-the-wall joking in another when flirting with Sam. It won't make sense because you don't *see* what makes it make sense.

If you don't get a lot of Jack's quips and sarcasm was either self-directed and/or cover for his inner insecurity, and refuse to believe he wants and loves Sam and then finally gets her, you *certainly* aren't going to be able to add it all up and understand why Jack is no longer bitterly self-mocking and suddenly serious more often.

Just as if you didn't understand how much losing what little he had of Sam - both professionally and personally - in S8 was ripping his heart up and making him more dark and depressed.

[es!]

I think that's true for Jack post-S8, too, when a lot of folks also complain about changes in his personality. If you don't *see* the ship, and understand the whole character development arc for Jack in S8, and what it really meant to him as a character when he went in to put his arm around Sam in Threads while Jacob was dying.. and then to go fishing with her.. You just *aren't* going to be able to understand why the Jack we see after that is more serious and calm in one moment, then almost off-the-wall joking in another when flirting with Sam. It won't make sense because you don't *see* what makes it make sense.

If you don't get a lot of Jack's quips and sarcasm was either self-directed and/or cover for his inner insecurity, and refuse to believe he wants and loves Sam and then finally gets her, you *certainly* aren't going to be able to add it all up and understand why Jack is no longer bitterly self-mocking and suddenly serious more often.

Just as if you didn't understand how much losing what little he had of Sam - both professionally and personally - in S8 was ripping his heart up and making him more dark and depressed.

Very well said! *nods*

[JenniferJF]

You have to know the character and watch him closely to see his emotions. The character learned early on to keep a poker face, as part of his special ops training, and he just doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve. But the emotions are there for those astute enough to observe them.

Funny OT story about that:

Spoiler:

My husband is ex-SF and when the realtor first showed us through the house we ended up buying, I could tell John absolutely *loved* it. When we got home, we called the realtor up to make an offer almost immediately. The man was totally surprised, "I thought your husband *hated* the house, he didn't seem interested in it at all," he explained.

lol.

When you know how to read the emotions, it's easy. Otherwise, it's almost like he's got none...

[VSS]

Sorry about the delay, we decided to take a spur-of-the-moment vacation! And then there's always the issue of internet access up in the mountains... oh well!

Past and Present
Favorite scene: Sam pulling Jack’s fingers out of his ears.
Favorite quote:
Sam: I think it’s a form of amnesia.
Jack: Huh?

Thanks to Josi for the beautiful banner!

While the premise of this episode is very interesting to me, I’m lukewarm about it for a couple of reasons.

I’d like it a bit better were it not for the Ke'ra & Daniel romance angle. Having mostly watched these eps out of order, I hadn’t realized until now that this was approximately just a couple of weeks after Sha’re died, although what Daniel said about her having died a long time ago is true. It just seemed a little odd for a person ostensibly in mourning. However, by the end of the episode it seemed to me that Daniel realized he’d really fallen for her on the rebound.

The biggest problem I have with this ep, however, is that I think they trusted Ke'ra far too quickly than the situation warranted. More on that later.

The scene in the library back on Vyus is very interesting. Jack and Sam are both a little puzzled by Daniel’s behavior toward Ke'ra, and the looks between them convey that- but that’s not all there is. Sam perceives there’s something else Jack’s thinking about, and prods him a little to get him talking about Linnea. Militarily and tactically, she knows what he’s thinking more often than not by this point.

Quite a coincidence that Sam manages to find Linnea’s journal behind some books on a high shelf- and that it’s in English! I realize it was necessary for the plot, but that was a wee bit convenient.

There’s also that funny scene in the lab where Jack’s trying to drown out Sam’s voice as she’s telling him she think Linnea and Ke'ra are the same person, and she pulls his fingers out of his ears. Watching the angle of her arm, I can tell she still has her hands on his wrists while she explains her thoughts. It reminds me of that scene in Sacrifices where Jack has his hands on Sam’s arms longer than he really needs to to get her attention- but this time they’re not yet so self-conscious about it. Cute.

I still pick up tension between Daniel and Teal’c, but that just could be Teal’c’s protective nature surfacing just as it did in the previous episode and Daniel being more than a little annoyed by that.

What really ruins this episode for me is that I don’t understand why they’d let her go back. How can they really be sure she doesn’t remember anything? Keira deceived them once already by taking the antidote to the dargol. And of course, there is the whole issue of personality being affected by memory. Is it? Why would Ke'ra suddenly become so generous and selfless? Are those learned traits, and if they aren't, where did they come from and why isn't her innate evil nature showing through? Is it an act? I think this, more than anything, is the main fault I have with this story. Jack knows that Daniel has a soft spot for Ke'ra (and I'm sure he has his reservations about that) but despite Jack being his usual wary self, he goes along with Daniel’s reasoning every step of the way even when it’s no longer rational. Of course, Hammond should know better, too. I don’t know what the solution would be in this situation, but as Ke'ra walks through the gate at the end of the episode, I get the feeling they let Linnea get away again. A similar situation occurs in Menace, and then, as we know, Jack does what his instincts tell him to do, and fires the gun instead of letting Daniel talk him out of it.

Implications: Between library and the lab scenes it feels to me like Jack and Sam have come along way in becoming friends and colleagues since the first season.

My apologies again for the late post, lucky for me, we had four days in between episodes, so hopefully we're not too far off track.

[VSS]

This is soooo true. And I've said it before (not recently), but I think he was really pining for her throughout S8. So many people said Jack wasn't the same, and accused RDA of "phoning in" his performances. But instead, I think the difference in Jack was pain. He hated flying a desk while his team went out into the field. He was worried that something would happen to his team, and he wouldn't be there to save them. And as Sam grew closer to Pete, Jack saw any chance he might have with her in the future slipping away.

Jack was having a tough time that season, and RDA played it perfectly. His reactions are just more subtle; that's all. You have to know the character and watch him closely to see his emotions. The character learned early on to keep a poker face, as part of his special ops training, and he just doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve. But the emotions are there for those astute enough to observe them.

You've explained this point rather well, and I agree with this, in fact I was going to mention this a page or so back when slurredspeech brought up Jack's behavior in Season 8. I never really saw his flirting with her in that season as a sign that it was "safe" to do that again because she was seeing Pete, but rather that he was losing that tight grip on his emotions, almost as if he was trying so hard he was ready to crack. I actually think his behavior was rather volatile the entire season.

I've always thought folks were really selling RDA short by chalking Jack's behavior to RDA's own desire to be home. Actors act, it's their job. By the same token, when we catch up with a rather radiant Sam in Beachhead fans are likewise tempted to say "Oh, AT's so happy being a new mom," which again sells her short as an actress, IMHO. But in both cases, it's not understanding the subtleties of the ship that leaves people looking around for other reasons, IMHO.

[Nynaeve506]

You've explained this point rather well, and I agree with this, in fact I was going to mention this a page or so back when slurredspeech brought up Jack's behavior in Season 8. I never really saw his flirting with her in that season as a sign that it was "safe" to do that again because she was seeing Pete, but rather that he was losing that tight grip on his emotions, almost as if he was trying so hard he was ready to crack. I actually think his behavior was rather volatile the entire season.

I've always thought folks were really selling RDA short by chalking Jack's behavior to RDA's own desire to be home. Actors act, it's their job. By the same token, when we catch up with a rather radiant Sam in Beachhead fans are likewise tempted to say "Oh, AT's so happy being a new mom," which again sells her short as an actress, IMHO. But in both cases, it's not understanding the subtleties of the ship that leaves people looking around for other reasons, IMHO.

I agree with everyone so far who's taken issue with the idea that Jack was distant because RDA was feeling itchy to be home. No matter what the actor's personal feelings are their job is to be a character and I think RDA did that to the best of his ability. And it's funny that people chalk AT's performance in "Beachhead" up to being a new mom - I don't know about her personally, but it wasn't easy being away from my new baby when I had to go back to work. AT may not have had a problem (I think she actually got to bring Olivia on set with her...) but... I don't know... anyway...

[JenniferJF]

I agree with everyone so far who's taken issue with the idea that Jack was distant because RDA was feeling itchy to be home. No matter what the actor's personal feelings are their job is to be a character and I think RDA did that to the best of his ability. And it's funny that people chalk AT's performance in "Beachhead" up to being a new mom - I don't know about her personally, but it wasn't easy being away from my new baby when I had to go back to work. AT may not have had a problem (I think she actually got to bring Olivia on set with her...) but... I don't know... anyway...

Or - you know - exhausted.

Though I agree, I've always found it bizarre that some of the actors staunchest fans, in trying to explain why the characters acted the way they did while ignoring any explanation involving their relationship, generally resorted to belittling the actors professionalism and acting abilities.

[hedwig]

I agree with everyone so far who's taken issue with the idea that Jack was distant because RDA was feeling itchy to be home. No matter what the actor's personal feelings are their job is to be a character and I think RDA did that to the best of his ability. And it's funny that people chalk AT's performance in "Beachhead" up to being a new mom - I don't know about her personally, but it wasn't easy being away from my new baby when I had to go back to work. AT may not have had a problem (I think she actually got to bring Olivia on set with her...) but... I don't know... anyway...

AT talks about Olivia in several interviews, and how she brought her to work with her every day, and either her own Mom or a nanny stayed with Olivia in AT's trailer when AT had to be on set. And as soon as AT wasn't needed on set for awhile, she would rush off to her trailer to spend time with Olivia and breastfeed her.

So I have to agree with those who disagree about her performance in "Beachhead" being related to being a new Mom. It had to do with the character of Sam, and not with AT's personal life.

AT and CB both did remarkable acting jobs while being pregnant ... and being sick quite a bit during that time. And yet their performances did not suffer from how they were feeling. (IMO)

[Cagranosalis]

On the subject of actors RL coming out in their performance, IMO I do think it's sort of fair comment.
For instance, I have always said that half the reason SG-1 is so enjoyable to watch is because you can see that here's a bunch of people (on and off screen) who are clearly having a blast making it. It comes through. Largely in the pure quality of the work but also just because you feel it. It's just there! I can cite examples of series where the actors/production crew have not been so friendly towards each other and, while the on screen drama might have been great, there's an underlying current running through that makes you feel a bit... well, squirmy I suppose.
Actors are professionals but even so they can be affected by what is going on around them - there have been a couple of scenes where you've caught a smile, or supressed laugh (not necessarily Stargate but in any series) that you know wasn't really meant to be there and you know that five minutes before that take Actor A was goofing about and making Actor B giggle or something. I think that all adds to the charm (and the pleasure of a real fan for spotting those moments).
I'll also use the example of AT and RDA, who obviously have a great off screen chemistry too and clearly have a lot of affection and friendship for each other. That comes across in their performances as Sam and Jack - all that mirroring of body language (and there is a lot of it, especially in season 3 but also, check out the "always" scene in Threads ) and the way they look at each other, interact so seemlessly. It's completely serendipitous (and if TPTB are to be believed it was that zing that they saw that made them decide to explore the ship in more detail - although I don't entirely buy that! ) but it's one of the things that makes this particular ship one of the most enjoyable and beautiful to watch... yes, even through the angsty times.

As for AT's "new mom" happiness, yes, I do think it has a relation to her return scene in Beachhead because real life joy and pain are all part of an actors toolkit to draw upon personal experiences when required. However, as has been pointed out, AT is a professional so I see it more that she was only drawing upon her own happiness to reflect it in Sam's happiness because that's what the scene called for. Basically, she could have acted less happy if it had been necessary or the director could have told her to tone down the grin, or the editor could have picked a different cut where she's more subdued but.... they didn't. Her utter joy in her life is clear for all to see... and it's lovely both for what it represents for Sam and for AT.

As for RDA "phoning in" his performances - meh! You know they said the same thing about David Duchovny in S8 of the X Files and I didn't see it then either. The moment a lead actor announces he's doing his/her last season or whatever, there's always some who will look for the signs they've already left. RDA's performance in the lab/ring scene in Affinity... well, if you don't see the sublety of his performance there at least, just pop it on with the commentary going and you can have it spelled out for you by those most in the know.
Nah, no phoning in that I saw!


Hmm, I guess I better say something about Past and Present but, hmm I think VSS has pointed out most of it.
I will touch on the fact Daniel moved on so quickly after Shar'e's death here but, yes I do think it's a rebound thing. Oddly enough, my husband's sister died suddenly in March and her husband very quickly struck up a friendship with another woman that... well, it's not love in that sense but it was a replacement for what was missing in his life so I can see a need to affirm your position and meaning in your life when tragedy strikes.
I just felt very uncomfortable with the way Daniel fell for her so quickly anyway, and the way everyone trusted her so readily - even after it was found out she was Linea. this is one of those times that I think they could have tackled the subject in a much more adult way and not gone for the obvious "happy" ending. Poor old Daniel though; he does pick 'em! His wife got snaked, he got jiggy (presumably) with a bunch of neaderthalised women, he "dated" the daughter of a meglomaniacal dictator who shoved his friends in a mine and got him addicted to the sarc, then a destroyer of worlds, then there was the homicidal android creator of the replicators, his ex girlfriend (who also got snaked) and then he ended up metaphorically chained to Vala. Have I missed any? Probably! And people say Sam's track record is bad.