Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[VSS]

Maybe this is what Moebius changed!!! Fish in the pond and choosing the name Charlie instead of Tyler and O'Neill having TWO "l"s ... so the Stargate movie was in a wormhole during the shift and thus we have it, but the rest of our DVDs are in the current "real" universe. How else do you think the writer's came up with the plot device in Continuum?

I can't think of a better explanation than that!

Thanks, jasminago!

Holiday
Favorite Scene: When Sam is by Daniel’s bedside as she thinks he’s dying.

Favorite Quote:
Jack (to Teal’c): Do not touch the head.

Holiday is an interesting ep, not one of my favorites, though, and there doesn’t appear to be any ship in it whatsoever. But the briefing room scenes are now statistically significant at .05. Jack and Sam are definitely keeping their distance this season.

Machello is an interesting character, a bit more complicated than most because he’s not an entirely good good guy, he’s been twisted by his misfortunes and made quite bitter. He seems to have come from a planet with a very big population- 2 billion. Probably too advanced and too numerous for the go’auld to handle, just like earth in Continuum.

I’m sure this was a fun episode for the cast to play- I don’t really think they did a good job of playing each other, though. The only time I could really believe RDA was Teal’c was when he was about to cut Jack’s hair. The raised eyebrow was great. Otherwise, he wasn’t stoic so much as robotic, and I know I’d heard that same tone of voice from RDA but couldn’t place it until the little shipper said “He sounds like that crystal guy,” and then I figured it out- he uses that monotone voice in Cold Lazarus. I also thought CJ was too expressive as Jack. I did think Daniel did a great Machello- but of course, MS played both roles which I didn’t remember until I watched the end credits. LOL!

Anyway, the discussion between Daniel and Machello was very interesting, and really there’s not a lot of difference between them as the series goes on. I think Daniel became pretty cynical in the end, and he’s always had this little desire for power along with a big desire for knowledge. But he never crosses the line like Machello did. I do think that Machello could relate to him, though, and that’s why Daniel convinces him to do the right thing in the end.

Didn’t that little coding device of his look like a Kindle?

Implications for Sam and Jack: They’re avoiding each other. And while in the big scheme of things that infirmary scene between Sam and Daniel to me just reinforces their friendship, I suppose at the time viewers might have wondered if there was a romance in the works.

[Nynaeve506]

Machello is an interesting character, a bit more complicated than most because he’s not an entirely good good guy, he’s been twisted by his misfortunes and made quite bitter. He seems to have come from a planet with a very big population- 2 billion. Probably too advanced and too numerous for the go’auld to handle, just like earth in Continuum.

I’m sure this was a fun episode for the cast to play- I don’t really think they did a good job of playing each other, though. The only time I could really believe RDA was Teal’c was when he was about to cut Jack’s hair. The raised eyebrow was great. Otherwise, he wasn’t stoic so much as robotic, and I know I’d heard that same tone of voice from RDA but couldn’t place it until the little shipper said “He sounds like that crystal guy,” and then I figured it out- he uses that monotone voice in Cold Lazarus. I also thought CJ was too expressive as Jack. I did think Daniel did a great Machello- but of course, MS played both roles which I didn’t remember until I watched the end credits. LOL!

I always thought it would loads funnier if Teal'c and Sam had switched. Of course the only thing that would have topped that would be if the scenario had happened during a shippier season :: giggles :: CJ shoots RDA one of those "looks" and Jack looks frightened...

I thought CJ captured mannerisms well - but you're right about Jack. I think it's the struggle of playing a character that I feel relies more on presence than mannerisms (though he does have a few).

Anyway, the discussion between Daniel and Machello was very interesting, and really there’s not a lot of difference between them as the series goes on. I think Daniel became pretty cynical in the end, and he’s always had this little desire for power along with a big desire for knowledge. But he never crosses the line like Machello did. I do think that Machello could relate to him, though, and that’s why Daniel convinces him to do the right thing in the end.

I agree with you about Daniel. I've been wondering why I find him funnier in the later seasons and now that you mention it - sure Jack rubbed off on him, but he exhibits that same humor that is rooted in being rather cynical (and hello, I live in the cavern of angst, so this sort of humor is right up my alley).

Didn’t that little coding device of his look like a Kindle?

The Stargate IS real!!!!!

Implications for Sam and Jack: They’re avoiding each other. And while in the big scheme of things that infirmary scene between Sam and Daniel to me just reinforces their friendship, I suppose at the time viewers might have wondered if there was a romance in the works.

I wonder if the writers were "trying" them out.... seeing if there was chemistry? I've never seen much chemistry between them mostly because they both seem a little too (naive isn't the word)... they lack the world-weariness that Jack has. Somehow in the relationship between Jack and Sam, I've always felt that Sam softened Jack somehow (Jonas accused her of wanting to be the one to fix the bird with the broken wing). This maybe heresy on the S/J thread but I could see chemistry (if they had pursued it) towards the end of the series with a harder Daniel (the relationship would have been distinctly different from S/J). Ultimately though, I feel like their chemistry at the beginning was more sibling like and because they didn't pursue more, that sibling feeling continued to the end.

[Rac80]

Actually, believe it or not, most pilots get the easiest degree they complete in the fastest amount of time (this is coming from my dad who's a retired AF C-130 pilot). There's an age cut off for becoming a pilot so most guys just need to get their butts into the officer program and you just need a four year degree, so they'll take whatever they can. Also, if they plan on going higher in the ranks, they'll need a masters, so it makes sense to have something that can easily be obtained at the higher levels. My dad got a degree in Biology (he really liked sciences) and then got his masters in public administration. I've always thought of Jack as being a psych (because it's an easy degree) or a poli sci guy (because of his black ops).

Uh excuse me... I can honestly tell you that a BS in psych is not an "easy" degree. Needing to write a publishable research paper your senior year is not a "cop-out" (steps off soap box) to an easy degree. Actually, depending on one's talents and abilities.... what is easy for one person is hard for another. my better half has a PhD in chemistry and ungrad minors in Physics and Math... all of which he considered "easy". but he couldn't have done my psych degree! Any more than I could have done his degrees. Most of the pilots I met in graduate school (at Purdue Univeristy)_ were engineering majors. not an easy degree for anyone but them...that's where their talents lay.

[hedwig]

The briefing room scenes are now statistically significant at .05. Jack and Sam are definitely keeping their distance this season.

I guess I'm not seeing what you're seeing, because I didn't think they were deliberately keeping their distance ... at least not in this episode. Sam sat on the opposite side of the table as she's done a few times recently, plus she's seated opposite Teal'c, even when Daniel's seat is vacant next to Hammond (which Janet takes when she comes into the room). But it didn't seem to me there was any avoidance, and at one point (if I recall right), Jack says something silly and looks right at Sam as he says it, as though waiting to see her reaction (and she smiles at whatever it was - must go back and check this for my own benefit). It was such a short scene, it was hard to tell if there was anything at all deliberate othewise.

I’m sure this was a fun episode for the cast to play- I don’t really think they did a good job of playing each other, though. The only time I could really believe RDA was Teal’c was when he was about to cut Jack’s hair. The raised eyebrow was great. Otherwise, he wasn’t stoic so much as robotic, and I know I’d heard that same tone of voice from RDA but couldn’t place it until the little shipper said “He sounds like that crystal guy,” and then I figured it out- he uses that monotone voice in Cold Lazarus. I also thought CJ was too expressive as Jack. I did think Daniel did a great Machello- but of course, MS played both roles which I didn’t remember until I watched the end credits. LOL!

I do agree I didn't think they did a good job of playing each other (but maybe that was deliberate on the part of RDA and CJ). Teal'c was a bit over the top with his "imitation" of Jack, and Jack was a bit too "wooden" with his of Teal'c. They all got to "stretch" a bit as other characters than their own, but I thought MS's was the only one that worked (but then he wasn't trying to play one of the other three).

Didn’t that little coding device of his look like a Kindle?

I'm wondering what those things are like (since I'm considering getting one).

Implications for Sam and Jack: They’re avoiding each other. And while in the big scheme of things that infirmary scene between Sam and Daniel to me just reinforces their friendship, I suppose at the time viewers might have wondered if there was a romance in the works.

I just don't see that they are avoiding each other. Unless it has to do with events of recent episodes. They seemed fine in "Secrets". Very friendly, in fact. Then came "The Tok'ra" and Jack seemed (to me) to be pretty supportive of her and Jacob. Maybe I'm just not on the same wavelength as others, but I haven't seen anything to suggest they are avoiding each other, not even because they're sitting on opposite sides of the table from each other. Jack even seemed to deliberately look over at Sam when he made a couple of silly comments, and she smiled as she usually does when he does something silly.

I've noticed that in other episodes where Sam and Daniel have a rather emotional scene that some people take that to mean a romance is brewing between them rather than an emotional scene between two good friends who really care about each other. I assume the latter (a scene between two good friends who really care about each other), or that they have more of a brother/sister or maybe first cousins kind of friendship/relationship.

I enjoyed some of the Daniel scenes when he was playing Machello and he and the homeless (I assume) are having ice cream.

[Nynaeve506]

Uh excuse me... I can honestly tell you that a BS in psych is not an "easy" degree. Needing to write a publishable research paper your senior year is not a "cop-out" (steps off soap box) to an easy degree. Actually, depending on one's talents and abilities.... what is easy for one person is hard for another. my better half has a PhD in chemistry and ungrad minors in Physics and Math... all of which he considered "easy". but he couldn't have done my psych degree! Any more than I could have done his degrees. Most of the pilots I met in graduate school (at Purdue Univeristy)_ were engineering majors. not an easy degree for anyone but them...that's where their talents lay.

I just phrased it wrong (I wasn't meaning to belittle it, I apologize, I have the greatest respect for psychologists ). Having started out in the physics department and then landed in the Spanish department - while my spanish degree was certainly challenging in it's own right - I spent much more time studying and in the lab with my initial major. (As a side note, I'm actually planning on going back and getting a second degree in Physics...)

I was only speaking from my father's experience, most of the guys he trained with tried to pick the degree with the minimum amount of credit required (and I think a lot were doing it at night too). They were looking for something quick.

[VSS]

Uh excuse me... I can honestly tell you that a BS in psych is not an "easy" degree. Needing to write a publishable research paper your senior year is not a "cop-out" (steps off soap box) to an easy degree. Actually, depending on one's talents and abilities.... what is easy for one person is hard for another. my better half has a PhD in chemistry and ungrad minors in Physics and Math... all of which he considered "easy". but he couldn't have done my psych degree! Any more than I could have done his degrees. Most of the pilots I met in graduate school (at Purdue Univeristy)_ were engineering majors. not an easy degree for anyone but them...that's where their talents lay.

Yeah, that's true. My husband's undergrad degree is in engineering and he has a terrible time with anything remotely subjective and hates to write, and he turned down a USAF scholarship because he thought it wasn't worth it as he couldn't be a pilot due to wearing glasses. I've always thought Jack seemed very much like the engineer type- analytical, wants results, tends to see in black & white (no offense to any engineer types, that's just my opinion).

I guess I'm not seeing what you're seeing, because I didn't think they were deliberately keeping their distance ... at least not in this episode.

Well, that's the beauty of keeping track of the seating arrangement. It doesn't matter what I'm seeing or think I'm seeing- for whatever reason their seating is not random. (I'd show you the math but it's kind of dry You can't just do a simple count- there are combinations and permutations and all that jazz to account for.). It's not coincidence that during the course of this season they're no longer sitting right beside each other- just like in the first season where it was also not random that they sat together most of the time. And if it's not random, it has to be deliberate. Now, of course that's the choice of TPTB, but they're doing it deliberately for an in-universe reason. And what could that reason be besides want to imply a distance between Jack and Sam, just as they wanted to imply there was some kind of an attraction in the first season? That's the whole point of framing and they do it a lot in this series, because they can't do anything else more obvious due to the regs.

Edit: Coincidentally, this is just the kind of statistical analysis a psych major would do when looking at behaviors, BTW!

Plus, I don't see nearly the flirting I did in the first season, but that's my subjective opinion.

I've noticed that in other episodes where Sam and Daniel have a rather emotional scene that some people take that to mean a romance is brewing between them rather than an emotional scene between two good friends who really care about each other. I assume the latter (a scene between two good friends who really care about each other), or that they have more of a brother/sister or maybe first cousins kind of friendship/relationship.

I agree with you, but to play devil's advocate that's exactly what some people might say about the S/J relationship, too. Plus, she's never kissed Jack in the infirmary when he's had an owie, either. But she did Cam and Daniel.

[Rac80]

I agree with you, but to play devil's advocate that's exactly what some people might say about the S/J relationship, too. Plus, she's never kissed Jack in the infirmary when he's had an owie, either. But she did Cam and Daniel.

I can remember being single and much more affectionate with the guys who I cared about as simply friends than I was with the man I was actually interested in. (of course once I knew the interest was returned.....)

[Nynaeve506]

I can remember being single and much more affectionate with the guys who I cared about as simply friends than I was with the men I was actually interested in. (of course once I knew the interest was returned.....)

I can second that. I think it's because there's no thought of this being construed as more... which is why Jack and Sam are so darn careful about their touching (and so subtle...)...

I still have trouble seeing Jack as an engineering major. But that's what they put on the wall, so... (and again, apologies about the psych statement, I wasn't thinking about how I was phrasing it, my sister majored in Math and Psychology and I'm sure she'd kick my butt.).

[VSS]

I can remember being single and much more affectionate with the guys who I cared about as simply friends than I was with the man I was actually interested in. (of course once I knew the interest was returned.....)

Yes, and if you were forbidden to be interested in that man I suspect you'd be even less affectionate.

Which kind of goes back to my reasoning about the seating arrangement. i actually see it as shippy that Sam and Jack don't want to sit next to each other, because it's so extreme. If it were just random- that'd be non-shippy! Because they wouldn't care if they were by each other or not.

[Rac80]

yep, I see both of them as afraid of what a look or accidental touch might reveal, especially because it was forbidden.

[Zoser]

LOL! So is that your way of saying the first movie is unreliable, too?

No just different realities - AU

[VSS]

Serpent’s Song

Favorite Scene: When Daniel talks to the host.
Favorite Quote: This one used to be in my sig before the rewatch:

Jack: What do you want?
Apophis: To live.
Jack: That’s between you and your God. Oh, wait a minute- you are your God. That’s a problem.

Banner by starlover

Daniel’s pose on the steps of the Stargate in the opening scene of this ep always makes me laugh. He's lying there like a mermaid, or a girl in a swimsuit. I wonder what the heck MS was thinking when he did that, especially with AT sitting there like a typical soldier.

Sam seems to empathize with Apophis because of the torture her symbiote experienced and also because she was once a host, and although Jack seems very sympathetic to her personally, she doesn’t sway him one bit. Does he ever seem to think she can’t be trusted in matters where the goa’uld are concerned? I find it very interesting she says the ashrak used the torture device on “us”.

Why does Hammond let Daniel go see Apophis, given their history? Jack seems concerned but doesn’t object. Maybe he understands, but still Daniel is vulnerable to screwing up the interrogation. Actually, every single one of SG-1 are at risk of that, since they all have personal issues with the goa'uld.

Is this the first time we find out the gate can only stay open 38 minutes? Also, the makeup and aging effects for Apophis are really quite good, right down to the little stitches on his lip.

I think the scenes with Daniel and the host are very touching, but it certainly complicates things because now it’s clear that the host’s consciousness really is still in there.

At the end, Martouf states that Sokar will simply revive Apophis, and of course, we know that’s true. Didn’t SG-1 realize this or did they just have no other option but to send him back. I guess it didn’t matter but I’m surprised that they’re surprised.

I think that Jack is warming up to Lantash a little, primarily because Lantash hates the goa’uld and basically thought that they should have killed Apophis right off the bat- and Jack did, too.

If SG-1 had it all to do over again, would they have killed him? Jack would have, I think.

Implications for Sam and Jack:
I’m picking up definite vibes between Martouf and Sam in this episode, so I see what Rachel mentioned about TPTB toying with the idea of a Martouf/Sam romance here.

Sam still seems very influenced by her experience with Jolinar, and/or seems to just have an affinity for Martouf at this point. I don’t think she would were it not for Jolinar, and these feelings seem to spill over into her work, which seems to be a helpful thing at this point- though hard on her. Jack still seems to trust her judgement, and I think that’s a very important thing. So no real ship in this episode, but I think we learn a great deal about Sam. And the fact that Jack still trusts her judgement despite the influences she may be under.

[Zoser]

Serpent’s Song

Favorite Scene: When Daniel talks to the host.
Favorite Quote: This one used to be in my sig before the rewatch:

Jack: What do you want?
Apophis: To live.
Jack: That’s between you and your God. Oh, wait a minute- you are your God. That’s a problem.

[]http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj116/VSS_photos/rewatch/serpentsongsig1.jpg[/IMG]
Banner by starlover

Daniel’s pose on the steps of the Stargate in the opening scene of this ep always makes me laugh. He's lying there like a mermaid, or a girl in a swimsuit. I wonder what the heck MS was thinking when he did that, especially with AT sitting there like a typical soldier.

Sam seems to empathize with Apophis because of the torture her symbiote experienced and also because she was once a host, and although Jack seems very sympathetic to her personally, she doesn’t sway him one bit. Does he ever seem to think she can’t be trusted in matters where the goa’uld are concerned? I find it very interesting she says the ashrak used the torture device on “us”.

Why does Hammond let Daniel go see Apophis, given their history? Jack seems concerned but doesn’t object. Maybe he understands, but still Daniel is vulnerable to screwing up the interrogation. Actually, every single one of SG-1 are at risk of that, since they all have personal issues with the goa'uld.

Is this the first time we find out the gate can only stay open 38 minutes? Also, the makeup and aging effects for Apophis are really quite good, right down to the little stitches on his lip.

I think the scenes with Daniel and the host are very touching, but it certainly complicates things because now it’s clear that the host’s consciousness really is still in there.

It gives Daniel some hope for Sha'ri. I almost sense some pity for the host in Jack that immediately disappears when Apophis reappears.

At the end, Martouf states that Sokar will simply revive Apophis, and of course, we know that’s true. Didn’t SG-1 realize this or did they just have no other option but to send him back. I guess it didn’t matter but I’m surprised that they’re surprised.

I think that Jack is warming up to Lantash a little, primarily because Lantash hates the goa’uld and basically thought that they should have killed Apophis right off the bat- and Jack did, too.

But they are all snake in the end aren't they - except for a different sense of ethics

If SG-1 had it all to do over again, would they have killed him? Jack would have, I think.

Implications for Sam and Jack:
I’m picking up definite vibes between Martouf and Sam in this episode, so I see what Rachel mentioned about TPTB toying with the idea of a Martouf/Sam romance here.

Sam still seems very influenced by her experience with Jolinar, and/or seems to just have an affinity for Martouf at this point. I don’t think she would were it not for Jolinar, and these feelings seem to spill over into her work, which seems to be a helpful thing at this point- though hard on her. Jack still seems to trust her judgement, and I think that’s a very important thing. So no real ship in this episode, but I think we learn a great deal about Sam. And the fact that Jack still trusts her judgement despite the influences she may be under.

Jack looks to Sam for opinions and to bolster his own. Some of those looks can be seen as shippy but I rather think they are just two people working together (that I do not doubt like one another).
Since you didn't mention it. Twice there is a briefing room scene and twice they sat together, although in the second one Sam is drooling over Martouf.

[Aveo_amacus]

Serpent’s Song

Sam seems to empathize with Apophis because of the torture her symbiote experienced and also because she was once a host, and although Jack seems very sympathetic to her personally, she doesn’t sway him one bit. Does he ever seem to think she can’t be trusted in matters where the goa’uld are concerned? I find it very interesting she says the ashrak used the torture device on “us”.

To be honest that doesn't really bug me, it was used on Sam, it nearly killed her. ALthough as you say this could be also due to Jolinar's influence on Sam

[VSS]

It gives Daniel some hope for Sha'ri. I almost sense some pity for the host in Jack that immediately disappears when Apophis reappears.
But they are all snake in the end aren't they - except for a different sense of ethics

Yes, they are. I agree with what you wrote about Jack and Daniel. If they were only snakes there wouldn't be a problem- but there are innocent, victimized hosts that still are alive. That makes it tougher, I think.

Since you didn't mention it. Twice there is a briefing room scene and twice they sat together, although in the second one Sam is drooling over Martouf.

Heh, you've been infected by the briefing room virus! I can't count the second scene, because Jack is not only sitting by Sam, he's also sitting by Daniel, so you can't easily judge intent there. Every possible grouping (including when team members are not present) has to be analyzed separately and I'd need some pretty high-end software to do that. But it's unlikely they'd contribute much anyway, since the sample sizes for other groupings are so small. We hardly ever see three people on one side of the table, for example.

Fortunately the easiest grouping to analyze mathematically is also the most common- two across from two.

But, indeed, the stats are no longer statistically significant with this episode. It's 9 eps sitting apart and 4 together so far this season, which seems like a big disparity, but it's only a trend.

To be honest that doesn't really bug me, it was used on Sam, it nearly killed her. ALthough as you say this could be also due to Jolinar's influence on Sam

It doesn't bug me, either. It just implies that a part of her strongly identifies with the Tok'ra. I kind of thought it was a neat little line that implied a lot in a single word.