Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[VSS]

I'm going to pop in on the discussion about whether or not the ship was meant to happen in S1-2.

I look at the first two seasons as laying down the foundation. Yes, there is attraction, but I see more a real sense of team building and evolving friendship. This is the true start to why Sam and Jack is so appealing to me as a couple. This is no fly by night attraction where the couple acts on shallow feelings. There is a deepness to what they feel that has built up over the years.

I hope this makes sense as I haven't been posting in a while.

This is a nice summary, and ITA.

Exactly, this is what I was trying to say. While the attraction and chemistry between them existed right from the start their feelings for each other evolved slowly over time. I see it like this:

season 1 - they get to know, trust and depend on each other. Jack works through his feelings for Sara while Sam after Jonas fiasco is determined to not get involved with anyone

season 2 - their trust and affection grows into real friendship

season 3 - they are still mostly friends but their friendship starts to evolve into something else..

season 4 - they are forced to confront their feelings for each other, possibly only now realising they've fallen in love

seasons 5-8 - love story continues..

In general, I agree with you although I find it very interesting that you don't actually include the physical attraction/chemistry of season 1 as part of their feelings for each other. But really, as much as we higher-thinking beings wish it weren't so at times, it's the foundation of a lot of relationships including this one.

That's why I think the difference between Season 1 and 2 between the ship is huge. Their friendship and affection is growing, as you say, but it's clear they've gone out of their way to push back inappropriate physical feelings toward each other. I don't see the flirty little comments from Jack any more, nor are they practically joined at the hip like they used to be.

That part in bold I must admit I never saw, at any time. She's excited about her job, but I don't see her giving up men in general over Jonas, not even for a little while. But if there's a moment you could point to for that, I'd love to know. I have picked up all kinds of new things from this rewatch!

*jumps in*
The personal respect came from her glimpses into his past in Cold Lazarus

It's important to note that Jack doesn't really get any similar glimpse of Sam's past until Secrets. I think Sam knows Jack better than he knows her in S2, for all the other reasons you stated, too.

IIRC RDA himself said that POV was the first episode that really forced Jack to look at Sam as a *woman*/potential partner, not as a friend/collegue and think about a possible relationship and this is how I see it too.

When I read this- this very scene Oma found from TbftGoG came to mind:

Right up until Daniel announces Gen O'Neill and Dr Carter's engagement. Then I think he starts to add up his respect for her, his physical attraction, the possiblity that their relationship would have if she wasn't under his command, and realises that there is potential for disaster here if he doesn't watch himself.

This scene is fairly obvious, and I agree. And then there's the little moment of appreciation for Sam in that dress in Emancipation, and of course, BD. What RDA might have meant could be that after POV was when Jack started to take those feelings seriously, though. That I would agree with. But it isn't as if he hadn't thought about it before, he just disregarded them as impractical and illegal, to say the least!

ITLOD blows his barriers away, and he knows that his feelings for Sam have crossed the boundaries. The Tok'ra backs this up - I think he's jealous that Martouf and Sam have that little tete a tete on the dunes, and his not wanting to leave Sam with Martouf and Jacob is a lot more than an unwillingness that nobody gets left behind.

By Spirits, Jack thinks he has effectively buried his growing "inappropriate" feelings for Sam. He shows his pride in her in a professional capacity, and encourages their friendship to grow because he's rationalised it as necessary for team cohesion; afterall, he's friends with Daniel and Teal'c too. But it's all still there, just simmering away, with the ocassional bubble bursting free.

I agree with this, but sort of at a much lower level of intensity. I think it's all subconscious, because he knows it can't go anywhere. And that's why it takes another couple of years for things to come to a head in D&C. But we do see those little bubbles bursting here and there in Season 2 that make me go hmmm..

But some of that may be just be because Sam's a woman, and he's a nice guy.Who likes women.

I'm not mentioning Laira either at this point I'll have plenty to say on the subject when we get to A Hundred Days....

I think 100 Days gives us a very valuable insight into Jack, regardless of whether one likes Laira or not. Which I kind of didn't until col aga's comment about Laira's personality and she sounds a little like me- and I'd have done the same thing as her! LOL!

But, more on that later!

[leiasky]

I was fine with Laira until she heard Teal'c on the radio and didn't tell Jack right away. Then I lost all respect I had for the woman.

[hedwig]

I was fine with Laira until she heard Teal'c on the radio and didn't tell Jack right away. Then I lost all respect I had for the woman.

I agree with this. Plus, the fact that she did that suggested she was willing to sacrifice those of her people stranded on earth for the chance to have a relationship with Jack. That she changed her mind and told him doesn't alter my opinion of her. I realize none of them could really have known that her people were safe, but still just the notion her "chance" with Jack was more important really bugs me.

[VSS]

Touchstone
Favorite Scene: The Antarctic gate activating right through the box, vertically. So, did it dig a hole in the ground on the other side?

Favorite Quote:
Tealc (to Maybourne): On Chulak, I would be well within my rights to dismember you.

Thanks, Aveo!

Well, I’m just trying to get caught up and I was going to skip this ep but after watching it, decided I had better write it up because there are a lot of key points here I want to remember. Next week I’ll be back in the internet wastelands again.

First off, I think Jack and Sam are avoiding each other in the briefing room this season, although it’s not statistically significant, yet- but it’s close. The sample size to show they’re avoiding each other has to be bigger than when I'm trying to see if they deliberately sitting together, because random seating would have them apart most of the time, anyway.

We meet the Medronans, whom SG-1 had apparently met off-screen. I like the princess, she seems to be the heir apparent and very capable as well as very pretty. We later see this actress as the wife who disappears in Revisions and then as the rebel base star hybrid in BSG. Wish I’d seen more of her, she really is striking.

Jack and Hammond put two and two together and figure out there is a rogue team. The scene where Jack confronts Hammond about it is important. In the last episode, Spirits, Hammond seemed to have let his ethics slip in Jack’s opinion, and I think he is fearful it’s happening again, here. Tactfully trying to find out whether Hammond is in on it, which had to have been hard for George to hear, but Jack had his reasons. The moment where Jack asks George to let Sam check out the computer logs is critical. It’s interesting to see these early eps where Jack is so deferential to Hammond. We spend more time talking about Sam moving up through the ranks but Jack changes, too. It’s hard to remember sometimes that he used to have to follow someone else’s orders. Anyway, for having limited screen time, the relationship between Jack and George is quite interesting and well-developed.

Sam does her scientist thing and cleverly figures out that they’re using the other gate. There are nice continuity nods to Solitudes and Serpent’s Lair here, and we find out about Area 51. Why does the team look so disturbed when they see the gliders being toyed with? Do they think the NID is up to something or is it just bad memories?

Spoiler:

Also, top secret papers really do require hand delivery, so Hammond's plot to get them out there wouldn’t have aroused suspicion. Is this the first time they tie Area 51 to the series? That was a brilliant thought, and one of those real-life tie ins Stargate was so good at. Sam figures out the gate is plastic (that must have been fun to film, ‘cause it probably is plastic) and it’s apparent Maybourne’s up to something.

So, back at the SGC, they come up with the plan to send the MALP through the gate retrograde, as it were, and locate the second Stargate. Really a nice little plot point, I think. It’s also interesting how now you can buy a better GPS for thirty bucks than what was on that MALP! Who’s that shady guy Hammond talks with? Was he there just to deepen the intrigue or was he going to be part of a future ep that never happened? I think Barrett filled his role later.

They figure out the gate is not too far from Hill AFB. I was just in those parts a while back, and stayed at a hotel were there were a bunch of Thunderbird pilots. And got buzzed by the planes, which was very cool. The pilots are all very cute- and little.

Isn’t Jack a little bit big to be a fighter pilot? He’s too tall to be an astronaut, that I do know.

So they wind up at this secret airstrip by Parowan- I like the way Sam notices the hole in the window and shows it to Jack. She’s coming along with her combat skills. Also, Jack used the corner of the building as cover in a way that would make Coela Bellatore proud.

And now comes the obvious question- why the heck didn’t they just zat all those guys? I know Hammond asked them to pull a MacGuyver and avoid using guns but that was just plain dumb right there. Although, Jack does shoot the last man in the arm, defying Hammond's orders- which he didn't like in the first place. But, I think he really felt the Medronans needed that touchstone, and was willing to wing the guy to get it back.

Nice ending to the story, and a great set-up for later plots. I thought it was cute at the end where the princess slips off her wrap and Jack puts out his hand like he’s going to hold it for her, but she just keeps it. Aw, such a gentleman!

Implications for Sam and Jack: They’re avoiding each other on a personal level, but professionally I think this ep shows he’s got complete confidence in her as a scientist and soldier. And I think he's picking up a few scientist tricks because he's the one who hooked up the generator to boost the power to the gate.
Of course, he does have a degree in engineering. Anyone remember in which field?

[hedwig]

I like this episode. Partly because it seems to be a rather "teamy" episode, with good guesses and comments by everybody on the team, and they're all working together.

As VSS stated, Jack and Sam are separated a lot of the time. They sit on opposite sides of the briefing table. He stays farther away from her in the control room every time she's working at the computer, when he so often seems to be standing right next to or behind her while she's figuring something out. Though, to be fair, she's right next to him or behind him at Area 51, at the place where the fake gate is, and when they take the Touchstone back to Madrona. And she did smile at a few of his sillier comments. It seemed to me the whole team seemed more businesslike/professional in this episode than in so many others.

I find it interesting that after less than two years on earth, Teal'c already seems to know quite a lot about computers, and what they do (has he been studying in his quarters when not on duty; taking lessons from Walter and/or Siler about stuff like that?) And I guess at Area 51 he doesn't need to cover up his First Prime emblem by wearing a hat; they must figure everybody there knows he's an alien.

This episode introduces Major Reynolds (always one of my favorite secondary characters). And it may mean nothing, but it seemed to me he was more of an administrative type officer in this episode, who gets promoted to an SG team leader later on down the road. I may be way off base, but going from administrative to (potentially) combat team leader is quite a leap.

This is not part of the reason why SG1 didn't just zat the "bad" guys when they walked into the hangar, but the writers did have to set up a future episode ("Shades of Grey") by not capturing them.

It didn't surprise me at all that Jack knew how to hook up the generator. He's always seemed like quite a handy guy, around the SGC (helping Siler when necessary and other things of that nature), and probably does a lot of his own home repair stuff.

Not really a whole lot else to comment on from me.

[gater62]

Touchstone
Favorite Scene: The Antarctic gate activating right through the box, vertically. So, did it dig a hole in the ground on the other side?

Favorite Quote:
Tealc (to Maybourne): On Chulak, I would be well within my rights to dismember you.

First off, I think Jack and Sam are avoiding each other in the briefing room this season, although it’s not statistically significant, yet- but it’s close. The sample size to show they’re avoiding each other has to be bigger than when I'm trying to see if they deliberately sitting together, because random seating would have them apart most of the time, anyway.

Why do you think this is? Are they realizing that their natural attraction is getting a little stronger? I kind of find it funny that they would think sitting further apart (when they spend so much time in each other's company) would help deny the feelings. I'm curious on the thread's thoughts on this.

Isn’t Jack a little bit big to be a fighter pilot? He’s too tall to be an astronaut, that I do know.

Hubby is pretty sure the Navy has min and max height requirements for pilots but can't recall what they are. I would think that since the cockpits are a certain size, they wouldn't be able to fit a very tall person in it.

Of course, he does have a degree in engineering. Anyone remember in which field?

Does he? Where did we learn this?

[VSS]

And I guess at Area 51 he doesn't need to cover up his First Prime emblem by wearing a hat; they must figure everybody there knows he's an alien.

I didn't notice that! I guess SG-1 is legendary in that part of the world.

This episode introduces Major Reynolds (always one of my favorite secondary characters).

Fanfic OT

Spoiler:

When I read that I went back and changed my fic to be a little nicer about sticking him on the O'Neill. Sorry!

Why do you think this is? Are they realizing that their natural attraction is getting a little stronger? I kind of find it funny that they would think sitting further apart (when they spend so much time in each other's company) would help deny the feelings. I'm curious on the thread's thoughts on this.

Well, aside from Rachel's comment that they were trying to play down the S/J relationship and play up the S/M relationship, and my thoughts that there was too much ship written in season one and the writers knew they couldn't go anywhere with it yet....

I think the in-universe explanation would stem from exactly what you have said about their natural attraction. And what Oma said about ItLoD which seems to be the point where the pulling-away happened. On some level, Jack realized they needed to keep things more professional. Also, he gets pretty bored in those briefings. After all, in Threads and WoO he was letting his mind wander when he was supposed to be paying attention so perhaps he's just susceptible to that!

Hubby is pretty sure the Navy has min and max height requirements for pilots but can't recall what they are.

I'm thinking around 5'9 or 5'10 max. from what I saw!

Does he? Where did we learn this?

SOmeone who toured the set during season 8 saw it hanging on the wall in Jack's office. So I guess that makes it canon.

[Zoser]

Touchstone
Favorite Scene: The Antarctic gate activating right through the box, vertically. So, did it dig a hole in the ground on the other side?

Favorite Quote:
Tealc (to Maybourne): On Chulak, I would be well within my rights to dismember you.

[http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj116/VSS_photos/rewatch/rewatch2x14.jpg[/IMG]
Thanks, Aveo!

Well, I’m just trying to get caught up and I was going to skip this ep but after watching it, decided I had better write it up because there are a lot of key points here I want to remember. Next week I’ll be back in the internet wastelands again.

First off, I think Jack and Sam are avoiding each other in the briefing room this season, although it’s not statistically significant, yet- but it’s close. The sample size to show they’re avoiding each other has to be bigger than when I'm trying to see if they deliberately sitting together, because random seating would have them apart most of the time, anyway.

It was said that the exposition in the briefing room was getting boring to shoot, so perhaps they were trying to mix things up and trying for some more interesting shots, who knows?

We meet the Medronans, whom SG-1 had apparently met off-screen. I like the princess, she seems to be the heir apparent and very capable as well as very pretty. We later see this actress as the wife who disappears in Revisions and then as the rebel base star hybrid in BSG. Wish I’d seen more of her, she really is striking.

Yes, I like her too.

Jack and Hammond put two and two together and figure out there is a rogue team. The scene where Jack confronts Hammond about it is important. In the last episode, Spirits, Hammond seemed to have let his ethics slip in Jack’s opinion, and I think he is fearful it’s happening again, here. Tactfully trying to find out whether Hammond is in on it, which had to have been hard for George to hear, but Jack had his reasons. The moment where Jack asks George to let Sam check out the computer logs is critical. It’s interesting to see these early eps where Jack is so deferential to Hammond. We spend more time talking about Sam moving up through the ranks but Jack changes, too. It’s hard to remember sometimes that he used to have to follow someone else’s orders. Anyway, for having limited screen time, the relationship between Jack and George is quite interesting and well-developed.

My husband even noticed Jack's attitude toward Hammond. I think it is a carry over from Secrets as well.

Sam does her scientist thing and cleverly figures out that they’re using the other gate. There are nice continuity nods to Solitudes and Serpent’s Lair here, and we find out about Area 51. Why does the team look so disturbed when they see the gliders being toyed with? Do they think the NID is up to something or is it just bad memories?

They are creating the ship that sends Jack and Teal'c to the Ort Belt!

Sam figures out the gate is plastic (that must have been fun to film, ‘cause it probably is plastic) and it’s apparent Maybourne’s up to something.

Well duh, we viewers say, it is plastic! It's not real but we choose to believe it is real and here is a copy of the non real, real gate - I absolutely love this moment. Scifi at it's most ironic!

So they wind up at this secret airstrip by Parowan- I like the way Sam notices the hole in the window and shows it to Jack. She’s coming along with her combat skills. Also, Jack used the corner of the building as cover in a way that would make Coela Bellatore proud.

And now comes the obvious question- why the heck didn’t they just zat all those guys? I know Hammond asked them to pull a MacGuyver and avoid using guns but that was just plain dumb right there. Although, Jack does shoot the last man in the arm, defying Hammond's orders- which he didn't like in the first place. But, I think he really felt the Medronans needed that touchstone, and was willing to wing the guy to get it back.

Nice ending to the story, and a great set-up for later plots. I thought it was cute at the end where the princess slips off her wrap and Jack puts out his hand like he’s going to hold it for her, but she just keeps it. Aw, such a gentleman!

Great team action - actually acting as military!!

Implications for Sam and Jack: They’re avoiding each other on a personal level, but professionally I think this ep shows he’s got complete confidence in her as a scientist and soldier. And I think he's picking up a few scientist tricks because he's the one who hooked up the generator to boost the power to the gate.
Of course, he does have a degree in engineering. Anyone remember in which field?

Yes, our boy does usually hide his lights under a bushel basket. And he does look delectable this season.

[silly sally]

Thanks Jumble

FIFTH RACE
Favorite Scene(s)
1) When Jack gets catatonic, Sam first checks his pulse, but afterwards she lightly caresses his cheek
2) When Jack draws the schematics for repairing the DHD and he writes a little note to Janet and Daniel "Shut up and go away!"
3) When Sam returns from the hot planet and is utterly surprised to learn that Jack was the one to provide the solution
Favorite Quote

[Teal'c stands in sweats, sneakers and boxing gloves. O'Neill is also in the room. He is dressed in similar attire, but he's wearing protective groin and head gear.]

TEAL'C
What is the reason for these padded gloves, O'Neill?

O'NEILL
So we don't hurt each other.

[Teal'c stares at him unconvinced.]

O'NEILL
I'll be honest with you, Teal'c, it's so you don't hurt me.

Despite being almost devoid of ship this episode is my second favorite (Lost City being my favorite and possibly the best piece of Stargate including Atlantis and even the DVD movies).
IMHO RDA is best at non-verbal acting as demonstrated in "MacGyver", here in this episode and later in "Lost City" and even in the shippy episodes like "Divide and Conquer" and "Threads" as he manages so convey so much with so little - a trait of the greatest actors...

Why did Major Castleman have to lead SG-1 instead of Sam if Jack was incapacitated as Sam already did so in "Spirits"?
I loved Sam being baffled at Jack's abilities.

Implications for Sam and Jack There's very little ship in this episode, the mostly Sam being worried about what's happening to Jack (the little caress when he's catatonic). I also think Sam started to realize that Jack might a lot smarter than she gave him credit if he managed to manipulate the Ancient knowledge to provide the schematics for repairing the DVD, help calculate new positions for the Stargates faster and eventually help himself get to the Asgards to get "healed"
Final note: I really hope the 3rd movie will involve another Ancient database download for Jack even though some might say it's been done to death... Even though "Time-travel" was done to death before, look how well it worked for "Continuum"

[hedwig]

I didn't notice that! I guess SG-1 is legendary in that part of the world.
Fanfic OT

Spoiler:

When I read that I went back and changed my fic to be a little nicer about sticking him on the O'Neill. Sorry!

Well, aside from Rachel's comment that they were trying to play down the S/J relationship and play up the S/M relationship, and my thoughts that there was too much ship written in season one and the writers knew they couldn't go anywhere with it yet....

I think the in-universe explanation would stem from exactly what you have said about their natural attraction. And what Oma said about ItLoD which seems to be the point where the pulling-away happened. On some level, Jack realized they needed to keep things more professional. Also, he gets pretty bored in those briefings. After all, in Threads and WoO he was letting his mind wander when he was supposed to be paying attention so perhaps he's just susceptible to that!
I'm thinking around 5'9 or 5'10 max. from what I saw!
SOmeone who toured the set during season 8 saw it hanging on the wall in Jack's office. So I guess that makes it canon.

Other people have commented that if it isn't spoken, it isn't canon. That if it's just something on paper that the prop department threw together, then it isn't canon. Not sure where I am on that opinion.

[Skydiver]

Folks

In light of us not allowing character bashing along with actor bashing, we've been disallowing the use of some terms used in a derogatory manner towards a character or pairing.

Terms on the list are terms like McIcky, Vaniel, etc...and you know, Spud fits in with those terms.

Dislike Pete all you want, but please, let's lose the Spud and those other nicks you've come up with to disparage him.

If you have any doubt about a term, PM a mod and we can give you a ruling, but let's lose the name calling please

Thanks

[leiasky]

Other people have commented that if it isn't spoken, it isn't canon. That if it's just something on paper that the prop department threw together, then it isn't canon. Not sure where I am on that opinion.

Well, there hasn't been anything else to contradict the information hanging on the wall so I'd tend to take it as canon.

I love the Fifth Race a lot. It's one of my favorite episodes. I love it when Jack is involved with ancient tech and I also hope that the third movie has something to do with it.

[VSS]

Folks

In light of us not allowing character bashing along with actor bashing, we've been disallowing the use of some terms used in a derogatory manner towards a character or pairing.

Terms on the list are terms like McIcky, Vaniel, etc...and you know, Spud fits in with those terms.

Dislike Pete all you want, but please, let's lose the Spud and those other nicks you've come up with to disparage him.

If you have any doubt about a term, PM a mod and we can give you a ruling, but let's lose the name calling please

Thanks

Okay, but in our defense I'm thinking back over our discussions here and I'm not remembering the use of those kinds of names very often on this particular thread.

But it doesn't hurt to remind us.

[VSS]

Other people have commented that if it isn't spoken, it isn't canon. That if it's just something on paper that the prop department threw together, then it isn't canon. Not sure where I am on that opinion.

Well, I'm not disregarding that pic of Jack in Atlantis!
I would say, if it's not on-screen, it may not be canon. I wonder if that degree was ever shown in a shot.

[Nynaeve506]

Other people have commented that if it isn't spoken, it isn't canon. That if it's just something on paper that the prop department threw together, then it isn't canon. Not sure where I am on that opinion.

I think I feel like if it's something we can *see* then it could be canon. In the fic I'm working on, I put his degree as poli sci because it just made more sense to me. :: shrugs :: Plus, I just haven't seen him be very "engineer" -like - not in the sense that he plays stupid, but in what his fortes seem to be. The fact that he deals a lot more with diplomacy (which he understands, he just doesn't like) makes me lean towards a different degree.

All that to say, if it's spoken I feel it's hard core canon. If it's legible, it's canon, and if it's in the background and we have to enlarge it, be there in person, or get digital enhancements... then we can re-interpret LOL

I suppose one could always ask JM