Carter instead of Mitchell?

[Gatefan1976]

Gatefan, I'm not going to respond to every comment you made nor am I going to dissect every single one of them. I think I stated my arguments pretty clearly and for me to elaborate on them even further would derail the thread and bring up all the old animosity towards the Cameron Mitchell character and the Cam vs Sam thing that went on in the past.

That is not my intention either. I am specifically trying to avoid saying who or what in terms of characters I personally liked or disliked (though I sorta dropped the ball on that by mentioning my dislike of Vala)

However, I would like to say that my comment about Sam being "okay" in Spirits was more based on my hazy recollection of the episode as it's been years since I've last seen it, but I just wanted to point out that Jack (and Hammond, obviously) apparently had the utmost confidence in her to command 'his' team while he was in the infirmary - even though Sam had only been his 2IC for a little over a year and had little, if any, command experience at that time.

She's still a Captain in the USAF at that time, and you don't get to that rank for nothing, I would hope they would have confidence in her abilities!!

For the rest I agree with most of the points Scully made, although I am not allowed to green her

Everything is based on our likes/dislikes and how we interpret certain things we've seen on-screen, so obviously people will disagree with each other from time to time, especially when it comes to such a big thing as Sam vs Cam, Original!SG-1 vs New!SG-1, 1-8 vs 9-10.

Sure, no argument here.

I do agree with whoever said/implied that a lot of the actors' talents were underused

There was no implication, I flat out stated it!!

and I really think that if TPTB had wanted to put Sam in charge they could have easily done so by simply making it so.

Again, sure.

Unfortunately, they decided they wanted a male lead and thus they wrote the changes they needed to accomplish this.

Side question, (and VM me if you don't want to answer here), How many shows *at the time SG-1* was running actually had female leads?

I think we can all agree that it certainly wasn't down to AT lacking any talent as we've seen her portray several different Sam Carter versions wonderfully throughout the years and do a pretty awesome job as Helen Magnus in Sanctuary. I also think CJ was underused which was a true shame and CB's character appeared to almost be a replacement for Sam except for the technical expertise (although Vala also knew a lot about alien technology, supposedly from her time as a host and/or space pirate) and even BB wasn't let down by the writing, in my opinion.

Sure, they were all underutilized to an extent, no argument.

The change of the show starting with season nine was incredibly obvious, not in the least because there was suddenly a handful of new (main/regular) characters that were thrown in way too fast. When I was reminded of Stargate existing about a decade ago (it wasn't on TV anymore at the time) I, uh, acquired the new episodes and started watching season 9 since I'd seen pretty much everything from 1-8 and I was shocked. At first I thought I must have missed something or the episodes were wrongly labeled because I didn't understand what was going on with Mitchell walking around etc, but eventually I understood - and I didn't like it. I persevered and even came back for season 10 when it aired but I never really enjoyed any of the episodes or storylines. It just lacked a lot of what once made the show great and it wasn't just the new characters. The whole tone was different, the subtle/sarcastic humor had been replaced by juvenile stuff, the old characters we loved were either changed (GI Daniel) or just shoved into the background (Sam, Teal'c)... I could go on, but again, it would derail the thread and basically rehash lots of things that have already been said in various other threads about these subject.

Of course, this falls into perception, and I am the LAST guy to stop someone from expressing their personal perception, weather I happen to agree or not. (I may also be the first person to argue against it as well however ) Fans are a diverse bunch of people and what rings right for one will not ring true for others.

Again, what it comes down to is what TPTB wanted and did: they decided Sam couldn't be in charge, introduced Mitchell (and others) and they wrote them the way they wanted them. For some, that was great but to others like me it was a huge disappointment. Also, I don't think you can really compare Sam's leadership abilities with her season on SGA because again TPTB decided to write her like that and there are/were a lot of Sam fans who could hardly recognize her in that role. It was more of an extension of Weir, I think*, than specifically written for Sam and with the character's past in mind.

I have never blamed (or praised) anyone but TPTB for what comes out of the actors mouths, or the overall direction of the show, that would be a foolish thing to do.

[fems]

The Landry thing also surprised me at the time, although I understand they wanted to get a big name actor to replace RDA. At least, that was my understanding of Bridges (I hadn't heard of him before at the time). I guess they could have promoted someone internally but it's more realistic to transfer someone who's already a (two-star) general, especially considering promotion slots in the USAF. Not that I think TPTB actually took that into consideration!

My comment about Jack/Hammond having confidence in Sam's abilities were meant as her abilities to lead a team and save another team. That's a pretty big deal considering she hardly had any field training (aside from flying in the Gulf) when joining the SGC and she's only been under Jack's command for a little over a year. Yet they chose her to lead SG-1 rather than send another team with a more experienced and higher-ranking commander, so that speaks volumes about her capabilities, in my opinion. So if they thought she was good enough to lead a team back then with so little experience and gave her command of SG-1 for about a year during season 8, why suddenly decide someone as inexperienced (both field work and gate travel) as Mitchell should have command over her. Heck, for that matter, why give him command of a team at all, let alone SG-1? That was just a stupid move. They have recruits who go through special training before they're even considered to go through the gate and even then they have to wait for an opening at a team before they might get permanent assignment there, yet they hand him command of the flagship team without any experience at all...

Anyway, I don't want to rehash this. As for your question about female leads in other shows at the time: do you have any idea how long ago that was and how many TV shows I've watched over the years? I'm pretty sure there were quite a few but the first one that came to mind was La Femme Nikita, although that one aired way before season 9 of SG-1. I think the final season was being aired around the same time in my country though, but that might have been reruns as I recall watching it when I was just a kid before it changed channels/time slots (I programmed the VCR though) and eventually just disappeared.


EDIT:
Oh and Alias, come to think of it.

[majorsal]

Really? Did we watch the same show? No Jack, No Sam. That was a huge change right there. Plus Daniel and Teal'c were both looking to go elsewhere.

It's hard for me to describe what I feel was the difference in the team dynamic. IMHO, there just wasn't the same chemistry between all of the characters that had been present before. But, I think that they adapted rather well and did a great job incorporating Mitchell into the team.

i know one of the 's of the beginning of s9 was...

sg1 had disbanded. THAT, alone, would have been *the* story, focusing on our beloved characters and the why's and such... but this was the new sg1. and this was a perfect example, to me, of what was wrong. the depth of the series, the depth of their relationships to one another was gone.

it came back, but not until they got rid of vala and the daniel-vala obsession. but it still wasn't the same...

[StevenSG1]

i know one of the 's of the beginning of s9 was...

sg1 had disbanded. THAT, alone, would have been *the* story, focusing on our beloved characters and the why's and such... but this was the new sg1. and this was a perfect example, to me, of what was wrong. the depth of the series, the depth of their relationships to one another was gone.

it came back, but not until they got rid of vala and the daniel-vala obsession. but it still wasn't the same...

It was like I said on a different thread, it just felt very "thrown together" to get the most of what they could out of a story line that had to be compressed to be able to be finished (just about).

There was never going to be the same chemistry as there was from seasons 1-8, THAT SG1, ended there, it was more individual moments than it was team moments from that point, in my opinion.

[Gatefan1976]

The Landry thing also surprised me at the time, although I understand they wanted to get a big name actor to replace RDA. At least, that was my understanding of Bridges (I hadn't heard of him before at the time). I guess they could have promoted someone internally but it's more realistic to transfer someone who's already a (two-star) general, especially considering promotion slots in the USAF. Not that I think TPTB actually took that into consideration!

You mean like Cam who was ALREADY a Lt Colonel.................
Was pivotal is saving SG-1...........
Wanted to "learn from the best"............
Thought "SG-1 was more than 3 letters and a dash"..........
Cam's WHOLE persona is fan service, he idolises SG-1 and see's them (rightly so) as HERO'S, the type of people he wants to learn from. He even said he did not come to "lead" SG-1, but JOIN them.
It did not play out that way.

My comment about Jack/Hammond having confidence in Sam's abilities were meant as her abilities to lead a team and save another team. That's a pretty big deal considering she hardly had any field training (aside from flying in the Gulf) when joining the SGC and she's only been under Jack's command for a little over a year.

Again, Sam is a Captain in the USAF at that time, they don't give them out for "long service" You seem to be forgetting that ALL the Earth based teams and personal (save Teal'c) are ALL new at this at that point. That does not invalidate their previous experience however.

Yet they chose her to lead SG-1 rather than send another team with a more experienced and higher-ranking commander, so that speaks volumes about her capabilities, in my opinion. So if they thought she was good enough to lead a team back then with so little experience and gave her command of SG-1 for about a year during season 8, why suddenly decide someone as inexperienced (both field work and gate travel) as Mitchell should have command over her.

He is "nominal leader" of SG-1, yet when it comes to Tech, he defers to Sam, when it comes to Ancients, he defers to Daniel, and when it comes to aliens, he defers to Vala or Teal'c.
Defering to those with more experience is NOT a sign of weakness in a leader, quite the opposite in fact, Especially when you are coming into an established group dynamic.

Heck, for that matter, why give him command of a team at all, let alone SG-1? That was just a stupid move. They have recruits who go through special training before they're even considered to go through the gate and even then they have to wait for an opening at a team before they might get permanent assignment there, yet they hand him command of the flagship team without any experience at all...

Jack said he could do "anything he wanted" He WANTED to JOIN SG-1, it did not work out that way.

Anyway, I don't want to rehash this. As for your question about female leads in other shows at the time: do you have any idea how long ago that was and how many TV shows I've watched over the years? I'm pretty sure there were quite a few but the first one that came to mind was La Femme Nikita, although that one aired way before season 9 of SG-1. I think the final season was being aired around the same time in my country though, but that might have been reruns as I recall watching it when I was just a kid before it changed channels/time slots (I programmed the VCR though) and eventually just disappeared.

No, I have no idea how many times you have turned 30, and I won't ask
My point is, that in 2005 roughly 25% of shows on TV had strong female lead characters, leaving the majority male dominated. Would it make sense to you *from a business perspective* to change a show, a phenomenal 8 seasons into it's run to a female lead?
I am not arguing what you may or may not like here, I am trying to show that there are other (no matter how bogus I may find them myself) reasons for wanting to keep SG-1 with a male lead.

EDIT:
Oh and Alias, come to think of it.

Oh, there were plenty more than that

[Gatefan1976]

It was like I said on a different thread, it just felt very "thrown together" to get the most of what they could out of a story line that had to be compressed to be able to be finished (just about).

There was never going to be the same chemistry as there was from seasons 1-8, THAT SG1, ended there, it was more individual moments than it was team moments from that point, in my opinion.

S6- Jonas Quinn, no Daniel.
Same arguments went on then.

[StevenSG1]

S6- Jonas Quinn, no Daniel.
Same arguments went on then.

I think since we still seen Daniel in S6 for 3 episodes, you still get the persona that he is watching the team, although he may not be physically there, you still feel he is. But I get the point on the argument.

[Gatefan1976]

I think since we still seen Daniel in S6 for 3 episodes, you still get the persona that he is watching the team, although he may not be physically there, you still feel he is. But I get the point on the argument.

If you open that box, Jack never "left" as he is also "always watching", into SGA and SGU.

[suse]

Cam has a spotless record as a pilot, and is used to dealing in small group tactics. He is obviously part of the SGC as he is piloting a 302 and knows the value of SG-1. He holds the same rank as Carter and has MORE experience as a military team leader.

Would that spotless record include getting his buddy from Stronghold messed up? You know, the one where his buddy eventually died because Mitchell was reckless? And then Mitchell went on to be reckless and disobey orders from the commander of the mission to save Teal'c?

So an air squadron leader would be well versed in small unit ground military tactics? On another planet, dealing with alien technology and alien mindset? Moreso than someone who had been in a ground unit for 7 years doing just that and led said ground unit for one?

Being part of the Stargate program does not mean that he had the right training to lead the flagship team.

That's not why Cam got the job. He got the job because he had proved himself, and he wanted, above all to *join* SG-1.
Not LEAD SG-1, JOIN. The situation played out that he WAS placed in charge and had to get "the band back togeather" as they had scattered or were in the process of doing so.

And why did they scatter? To make room for the new leader.

Ben once said that he talked to a pilot (when he went up in a fighter - arranged by the Stargate peeps; note that it took them another 2 years to even ask Amanda if she would like to do so) who said that it is normal to change commnders every few years. Ben seemed to take that as confirmation for Mitchell leading. SciFi Magazine, sometime around when S9 premiered But he didn't mention asking about the chances of the former leader of the team serving under the new commander. For some reason I don't think that would happen.

I just wanted to point out that Michell's record was not quite spotless.

suse
<<wanders away muttering , "NONONONO!">>

[Gatefan1976]

Would that spotless record include getting his buddy from Stronghold messed up? You know, the one where his buddy eventually died because Mitchell was reckless? And then Mitchell went on to be reckless and disobey orders from the commander of the mission to save Teal'c?

1: Ferguson saved Cam from "something" that was caused by Cam's recklessness.
2: Cam was not "guilty" for Ferguson's actions, hence no reprimand on his record.
3: Cam feels he is a MURDERER based on his bombing of what turns out to be a civilian vehicle (collateral damage), yet despite his own feelings, is not guilty and it is not on his record.

So, yes spotless record.

So an air squadron leader would be well versed in small unit ground military tactics?

A Lt Colonel has probably taken courses in ground tactics, and basic military tactics would be part of any OTS.

On another planet, dealing with alien technology and alien mindset? Moreso than someone who had been in a ground unit for 7 years doing just that and led said ground unit for one?

Of course not.

Being part of the Stargate program does not mean that he had the right training to lead the flagship team.

No, but given the choice to do whatever he wanted gave him the chance to.

And why did they scatter? To make room for the new leader.

Cause it was in the script?

Ben once said that he talked to a pilot (when he went up in a fighter - arranged by the Stargate peeps; note that it took them another 2 years to even ask Amanda if she would like to do so) who said that it is normal to change commnders every few years. Ben seemed to take that as confirmation for Mitchell leading. SciFi Magazine, sometime around when S9 premiered But he didn't mention asking about the chances of the former leader of the team serving under the new commander. For some reason I don't think that would happen.

New "commanders" and leaders take over from other leaders *all the time*, and the ex-leaders do not always move on. This is true in the military and civilian fields.

I just wanted to point out that Michell's record was not quite spotless.

Yes, his record is spotless, weather he feels that way or not.

Now, if you want to talk about weather the female actors were "hard done by" by TPTB, I will agree with you that they were, but that is not really the topic at hand, is it?

[mooseman]

....

As for Seasons 9 and 10, there really isn't a defined leadership role for Mitchell either is there? He even says at one point, that Sam's the same rank, Jackson's a civilian, and Teal'c's an alien so he doesn't really have any authority.

Mitchell actually does outrank Carter because he has been a Lt Col longer than she has.

She's still a Captain in the USAF at that time, and you don't get to that rank for
nothing, I would hope they would have confidence in her abilities!!

I kinda hate to say it, but in my experience, Captain in the Air Force is a "gimme" rank. There is more to it of course, but basically stay out of trouble and you get your Captain bars after a number of years in service and as a First Lt.*

I do wish that they had let Sam be officially in charge in 8 and 9 and was incredibly happy to see her in command of the Hammond in SGU.



*my experience is on the Medical side, where things are a bit "different" than the "real" Air Force.

[fems]

Mitchell actually does outrank Carter because he has been a Lt Col longer than she has.

Actually, there has been no proof of that. If anything, it's more likely that Sam has seniority. After all, Mitchell was a squadron leader during the battle of Antarctica and that's a position held by majors. Sam was promoted in New Order which is shortly after the events in Lost City and in his hospital flashbacks it's Sam who is awarding him the Medal of Honor and she's wearing her dress blues, showing off her rank as lieutenant colonel. Not only would it not make much sense for someone of equal rank to give him that medal (although I'm still doubtful it actually happened) but it's highly unlikely Mitchell was promoted while still recovering. Yeah, the AF will hand him a medal or two for bravery and whatnot, but they're certainly not going to promote him to O-5 when it looks like he might not be able to walk again, let alone remain in the USAF. He was looking at a medical discharge so it wouldn't make sense to promote him and I doubt it would get approved by the promotion boards.

Also, going by Sam's file shown in Entity she was born in 1968 while Mitchell was born in 1970, meaning that it's far more likely for Sam to have been in the service for at least one year longer and her previous promotion [to major] probably took place earlier; DoB and date of current/previous ranks are all considered by the promotion board before giving a line number, which in turn gives the order of promotions since not everyone is promoted at the same time. Therefore, it's more likely Sam was promoted to lieutenant colonel before Mitchell did. After all, considering his injuries sustained in Lost City he probably needed season 8 to recover and then get back into shape. Once it was clear he was going to recover and would be able to remain in the service he was probably (re)considered for promotion.

I kinda hate to say it, but in my experience, Captain in the Air Force is a "gimme" rank. There is more to it of course, but basically stay out of trouble and you get your Captain bars after a number of years in service and as a First Lt.*

I do wish that they had let Sam be officially in charge in 8 and 9 and was incredibly happy to see her in command of the Hammond in SGU.



*my experience is on the Medical side, where things are a bit "different" than the "real" Air Force.

From the research I did into ranks and promotions I tend to agree: most if not all of the websites I consulted say that as long as you perform your duties satisfactorily, the chance of getting promoted to captain is "~100%". It's only after captain that the requirements are upped and the chances of promotion decline, meaning you have to earn it.

[mooseman]

In the Avalon Pt.1 flashback scene where Mitchell is briefing his squadron, his
LtCol insignia can clearly be seen on his flightsuit.

And a LtCol as a commander of something super secret like an F302 squadron would not be unusual. IIRC, the commanders of the F117 Stealth Fighter squadrons were mostly LtCols.

[IamDKScully]

I think the point about Sam being a Captain and given leadership responsibility is just that, she was only a Captain (gimme rank or not) and she was still entrusted with leading her team in her CO's stead.

All you can see in Avalon Part 1 is that he has a maple leaf on his shoulder, the color is indistinguishable, in fact it looks blue. Which, I tried to find online and did find a blue maple leaf that was designated for Lt.Colonel, but, if you look at the screencaps for that scene, everyone has a blue rank insignia. So, not sure what that means.

[mooseman]

They're called oak leaves. And looks blue because it is blue.
And when it is blue, like what Mitchell was wearing, that denotes LtCol rank.

On subdued insignia like what is worn on a flightsuit, the 1st Lt and Captain ranks are also blue. 2nd Lt and Major would be a light brownish or so.