Browder's character should OUTRANK Carter

[Major Clanger]

(bonus points to anyone who was expecting to see me here)

OK, are there any military or ex-military people posting in this thread? Because one thing that has not been mentioned is this: the military has a habit of moving people around to round out their experience. Becoming a leader of a team is not automatic, and it would make sense to me if BB comes in as the leader of SG-1 if he has seniority over Sam (rank wise - she is a very baby Lt.Col)

Rank is rank. Sure, doctors, the JAG and the rather lovely Education Corps (UK) have to have officer rank for various reasons. However, they usually are the first to admit that they haven't a clue and let real soldiers take over the leadership stuff.

However, seniority still counts and if they are stupid they might think that it actually means something and do something silly.

I've said it before and I'll say it again (it's no secret that I am opposed to Sam's promotion to Lt.Colonel anyway): Sam is good at what she does, but she has yet to convince me that she could lead an SG-team.

[david2708]

Carter is no Janeway!

[jckfan55]

Carter is no Janeway!

do you mean that as a positive or negative?

[graculus]

I just hope that the writers and directors can think 'big' and 'heroic' when it comes to storylines that deal with the absences of AT and RDA in Season 9.

Sam and Jack could be abducted by aliens.
:: hastily runs away::

Later,
Graculus

[LordAnubis]

Haven't seen it yet.



TPTB would have to call me and ask very nicely.



I'm still not following this argument. If they remain with *equal* rank, why does BB get the command position?



Very true! And Carter was seasoned before she even joined SG-1, so just calling BB "seasoned" is not an assertion that he has more experience than Carter.



It's bumming me out that the military can't find a way to put Teal'c in charge of some stuff. But I guess giving him time off to lead Jaffa Rebels is a form of acknowledging his experience.



Jack was married when he was fighting in Iraq. And he was the first to point out that service to the SGC does not preclude a personal life. If male officers get to have a family while serving their country, why can't Carter?



Or Pete could take on his share of the childcare. Jack mentioned other people at the SGC had children as well.



I certainly don't mind seeing BB in action. Mmmm, eye candy.



I agree. And perhaps they want to assure people that they aren't going to try the Newbie-Worms-His-Way-Onto-Premiere-Team strategy again.



Great point! I hope the writers don't let any opportunity for good story-telling slip by. Making BB's character similar in rank and experience to Carter is a set up for conflict.

Later,
Graculus

Let's say you and I are both full bird Colonels in the USAF. I'm a surgeon on a military base and have served in the USAF for many years moving my way up the ranks to colonel. However, despite my rank and uniform, I'm merely a doctor. I have some military training, but I'm not a commander or leader even though I hold a high rank.

You are also a full colonel but you are the base commander. You have command, combat, leadership, and flight experience. I have none of that. You and I have been full colonels for the same period of time, but you are clearly the military leader with plenty of leadership experience. If you and I were the only ranking officers left after a major catastrophe, you would clearly be the "higher" ranking officer. In fact, if you and an experienced command major were left, the major would even rank higher than me despite my rank.

Your position and job often rate higher than your official rank. Sometimes enlisted personnel have greater authority than lower officers, in some cases. But usually, rank alone is not dispositive.

Carter is both an exceptional scientist with tons of knowledge regarding the Stargates, hyperdrives, astrophysics, etc. However, she is also a very experienced SGC officer having visited hundreds of planets, meeting hundreds of different species, assisting the Tok'ra and Asgard, defending the planet on numerous occasions, etc.

Lt. Col. BB has defended the Earth from Anubis' forces, but he has done none of the other things Carter has. To simply put him in charge would be disrespectful to Lt. Col. Carter and would undermine the dynamics of SG-1. I don't think this will happen, but I do think he will be blended into SG-1 and be a co-commander of the unit. There is no reason why two officers cannot both command, or he would be second to Carter.

Chances are, BB has been a Lt. Col longer than Carter and therefore would technically outrank her in terms of experience, but that experience is NOT stargate and off-world experience, so what's it worth? Does fighting Iraqis constitute the same thing as battling Jaffa? Hell no! Does covert ops in Rwanda equate to infiltrating a Goa'uld system lord meeting? Nope. Her experience with SGC matters will probably trump his regular military experience.

For those reasons, I dont foresee BB becoming SG-1's new commander, UNLESS (1) Carter requests it due to her own self-doubts, or (2) Carter steps down for some reason. He'll probably fill in for her while she's popping out her kid, or he'll just be another member of SG-1. he might also be a special SGC officer floating from different SG units.

Also, going back to the very first post of this thread, Jack is NO dummy. Jack is one of the smartest people in SGC. He just likes to play dumb.

[graculus]

Carter is no Janeway!

do you mean that as a positive or negative?

I lost the point where Janeway came into the conversation. The USAF is not The Federation. Different leaders have different leadership styles. We've actually seen Carter kick a lot more ass than Janeway. Carter would be the more reliable leader in a field situation. I agree, however, with what has been said about Carter hesitating at crucial moments. Leaders grow into their roles, and Carter is growing into her command.

Later,
Graculus

[Flyboy]

(bonus points to anyone who was expecting to see me here)

OK, are there any military or ex-military people posting in this thread? Because one thing that has not been mentioned is this: the military has a habit of moving people around to round out their experience. Becoming a leader of a team is not automatic, and it would make sense to me if BB comes in as the leader of SG-1 if he has seniority over Sam (rank wise - she is a very baby Lt.Col)

Rank is rank. Sure, doctors, the JAG and the rather lovely Education Corps (UK) have to have officer rank for various reasons. However, they usually are the first to admit that they haven't a clue and let real soldiers take over the leadership stuff.

However, seniority still counts and if they are stupid they might think that it actually means something and do something silly.

I've said it before and I'll say it again (it's no secret that I am opposed to Sam's promotion to Lt.Colonel anyway): Sam is good at what she does, but she has yet to convince me that she could lead an SG-team.

Well I'm not serving military, but im a Sergeant in the Air Force Cadets here (will be signing up properly as an officer once Ive finished college)... So ok, I cannot claim to have anything compared to your level of experience clanger, but I have had a fair bit of experience planning, and leading teams on exercises, and I have to say...

I wholeheartedly agree with you.

BUT

I think now my opinion is simply that BB shouldnt be team leader, but another guy should... maybe that Dixon guy? My argument is that BB, this new guy from Farscape is coming in and stealing the show... And frankly, I dont like that.

[graculus]

Your position and job often rate higher than your official rank. Sometimes enlisted personnel have greater authority than lower officers, in some cases. But usually, rank alone is not dispositive.

I understand the argument about how people with a lower or equal rank can be assigned command based on the situation. The argument I don't understand is how equivalent rank of BB and Carter's characters results necessarily in BB taking charge. Several posts seem to assume that where rank is the same, BB is automatically in charge.

I do think he will be blended into SG-1 and be a co-commander of the unit. There is no reason why two officers cannot both command, or he would be second to Carter.

I think this would cause confusion in chain of command. I think Carter's greater experience will result in her maintaining the command role.

Chances are, BB has been a Lt. Col longer than Carter and therefore would technically outrank her in terms of experience,

I don't understand where this idea is coming from. Why are we assuming that just because BB is "seasoned", he has been in the military longer? Wasn't Carter flying planes in Iraq? Until someone shows me evidence BB has been in the military longer than Carter, I'm assuming she has more experience.

Her experience with SGC matters will probably trump his regular military experience.

But don't write off that she had a lot of experience before arriving at the SGC. She earned her right to be there. Some women would argue she probably had to earn it a lot more than the men around her.

UNLESS (1) Carter requests it due to her own self-doubts

I can see the writers going there. But I really hope they don't.

Another scenario, though, is BB takes command while Carter is recovering from a severe injury.

Later,
Graculus

[Guest]

MC, I am ex-military and I have posted several times regarding the military rank issue in this thread. And I agree with LordAnubis' post about a doctor versus a combat rank. There is a difference in the types of fields, medical, administrative, etc. versus combat. But obviously both Carter and BB will be in combat fields... It goes back to time in grade (rank) as to who is senior. It will be interesting to see how SG1 writers handle it given their long time stance of "we can't do that because the AF won't let us" when it comes to this particular situation.

[Guest]

<snip>
I don't understand where this idea is coming from. Why are we assuming that just because BB is "seasoned", he has been in the military longer? Wasn't Carter flying planes in Iraq? Until someone shows me evidence BB has been in the military longer than Carter, I'm assuming she has more experience.
<snip>
Later,
Graculus

Graculus, what I am talking about is the time spent as a Lt. Col. The military usually looks at two officers in the same grade (Lt Col) and the same field (combat) and determines who outranks based on who has been a Lt Col longer. If SG1 writers follow that norm, then BB could very well outrank Carter based on his time as a Lt Col. There could possibly be mitigating circumstances, but that's not the way it normally works.

I don't want BB to outrank Carter. I want the writers to do something with her to show she can lead (unlike most of S8... okay, all of S8). I am just trying to outline the normal military procedure and hoping that BB just got promoted.

[graculus]

Graculus, what I am talking about is the time spent as a Lt. Col. The military usually looks at two officers in the same grade (Lt Col) and the same field (combat) and determines who outranks based on who has been a Lt Col longer.

I agree that BB *could* be a Lt. Col. longer. I just don't understand the posts that *assume* he has been because he was described as "seasoned". Maybe he was promoted by Jack for his service in Antarctica...after he promoted Carter.


Later,
Graculus

[david2708]

I think TPTB don't really give a toss what the correct military ranking should be and who is correctly ranked above whoever for whatever.
They'll do whatever they think will give them the ratings they want.
The fact that it's an action/adventure/scfi show would in all probability see them want a male as the lead.That's why they went for a big scifi name like Browder.
It may sound sexist and probably is, but the predominant demographic I presume is male dominated for such a show like Stargate and alot of guys aren't drawn to a show of that genre headed by a female commander.
I know Voyager is an exception and I love Janeway, but they are few and far between.
I still believe Browder has been brought in to take over the show from RDA.
It's all a bit black and white in TV land. Stargate = predominantly males.Sex In The City= predominantly females.Thus the shows are cast and storied accordingly.

[Guest]

I agree that BB *could* be a Lt. Col. longer. I just don't understand the posts that *assume* he has been because he was described as "seasoned". Maybe he was promoted by Jack for his service in Antarctica...after he promoted Carter.


Later,
Graculus

I have my fingers crossed that it's exactly as you described and Carter has the senior position!

[Flyboy]

I dont get why a pilot would join SG1 though. Seriously? Why would they be needed?

[graculus]

Stargate = predominantly males.Sex In The City= predominantly females.Thus the shows are cast and storied accordingly.

Is the Stargate viewership predominantly male? That would surprise me.

Later,
Graculus