Gateworld Virtual Fleet 4.0 - Discussion thread

[Crazy Tom]

except that our technology is blasting forward so fast, it will take 100 years. most of our advancements are relatively slow. nowadays we have completely new fields of technology.


so yes it'll take a while. now if we were a race who already had hyperdrive etc tech, the story would be different. but the current generations learned that their goverment lied for more than a decade, not just having met aliens, but rather dozens of them


the next generation will get used to having colonies, and aliens, and a humongous space fleet.


but intrusion on the mental level, well i do believe it's gonna be hard to swallow.

The problem is that people do not think that way, they are a lot faster than that. And disclosure dumps all of that information at once. So instead you have people trying to absorb all this new data and carve out a piece of this huge new frontier for themselves. It's gong to lead to a boom in almost every aspect of life, industry., science, culture.

Air Force pilots will never go for anything beyond this level

Spoiler:

hands on training is the best there is. The level of neural inputs required cannot be replicated by a machine.

Oh yes it can.

All it takes is enough processing power and RAM. When you think about it, all the data you receive comes from your sense organs, you could have a computer plugged into your optical nerves, feeding them data, and you wouldn't know the difference as long as the computer could feed data at a resolution that the eye take it in.
The same extends to the rest of the sense organs.

In Stargate the above is possible and canon.

see how the guy messes with the handle/throttle whatever it was. what i suggest is an upload which teaches how it works, and it teaches you to fly. so people walk out of the download room, into a fighter and fly away, knowing what to do. then they can actually get experience. so they don't have to learn how to fly, but rather they only have to learn how realistic flight works.


compare it to knowing how a car works, to being put in a car and approaching a complex crossing where ten things happen simultaneously, there's lights, signs, jerks, etc. no level of download can prepare you for that.

I thinh what Killman is trying to say is that there are two levels to this thing. Neural tech replaces classroom instruction, by simply putting the knowledge into your head. Then you train in virtual reality simulator, then your ready to fly.

[thekillman]

The problem is that people do not think that way, they are a lot faster than that. And disclosure dumps all of that information at once. So instead you have people trying to absorb all this new data and carve out a piece of this huge new frontier for themselves. It's gong to lead to a boom in almost every aspect of life, industry., science, culture.

y'think the military's gonna disclose everything just like that? it would be crazy if the government announced they have the technology to change everyone's mind at their desire.

All it takes is enough processing power and RAM. When you think about it, all the data you receive comes from your sense organs, you could have a computer plugged into your optical nerves, feeding them data, and you wouldn't know the difference as long as the computer could feed data at a resolution that the eye take it in.
The same extends to the rest of the sense organs.

there is a personal aspect to experience. Mitchell knew his memory of the murder was fake, utterly fake actually, but he couldn't prove it untill they found a tiny inconsistency that they could use.


during a certain experience you draw upon personal stuff, and blind copy-pasting won't work. not even tinkering will work.

I thinh what Killman is trying to say is that there are two levels to this thing. Neural tech replaces classroom instruction, by simply putting the knowledge into your head. Then you train in virtual reality simulator, then your ready to fly.

pretty much, yes.


you're the wrong person to ask but i'll do it anyway, tom.

would you have the military, or anyone for that matter, hook up a device to your brain which allows the user access to all your memories, secrets, fears and desires? the moment the memory device switches on, you no longer have any privacy. and then i'm not talking naked-in-a-glass-room privacy, i mean no utter privacy on any level. anything you think will show up on the screen. long-forgotten or tightly-surpressed childhood memories are as easily downloaded as all your personal info like your passwords and creditcard stuff and all.



i wouldn't. i don't want such technology. i would never want anyone to have that kind of power. any president candidate is easily manipulated into doing whatever the controller sees fit.

[Crazy Tom]

y'think the military's gonna disclose everything just like that? it would be crazy if the government announced they have the technology to change everyone's mind at their desire.

The military hasn't got anything to do with it. Civilian Stargate reconnaissance would also happen, and these technologies would make their way into the mainstream.

there is a personal aspect to experience. Mitchell knew his memory of the murder was fake, utterly fake actually, but he couldn't prove it untill they found a tiny inconsistency that they could use.

That was different, there was no connection between that memory and Cam, no motive for him to have done it. It created a paradox. In that quotation I was talking about the fact that the human mind is ultimately reliant on it's sensory organs for a definition of reality, which can be manipulated, which is good for things like virtual reality flight and combat simulators.

you're the wrong person to ask but i'll do it anyway, tom.

would you have the military, or anyone for that matter, hook up a device to your brain which allows the user access to all your memories, secrets, fears and desires? the moment the memory device switches on, you no longer have any privacy. and then i'm not talking naked-in-a-glass-room privacy, i mean no utter privacy on any level. anything you think will show up on the screen. long-forgotten or tightly-surpressed childhood memories are as easily downloaded as all your personal info like your passwords and creditcard stuff and all.



i wouldn't. i don't want such technology. i would never want anyone to have that kind of power. any president candidate is easily manipulated into doing whatever the controller sees fit.

Well there's a difference between what we want and what's going to end up happening. Technological propagation does not follow morality or fairness, it follows only the impartial rules of "Does it work?" and "How can I use it to my advantage?".

Ergo, while suppressing a certain technology is useful in order to better understand it and learn how to live with it, suppression is ultimately doomed to failure, and if suppression was not concurrent with finding some way to live with it, the most likely result is some sort of collapse or radical change, whether economical, social, etc.

[thekillman]

The military hasn't got anything to do with it. Civilian Stargate reconnaissance would also happen, and these technologies would make their way into the mainstream.

i don't think military would let anyone go anywhere without a dozen marines for backup.

That was different, there was no connection between that memory and Cam, no motive for him to have done it. It created a paradox. In that quotation I was talking about the fact that the human mind is ultimately reliant on it's sensory organs for a definition of reality, which can be manipulated, which is good for things like virtual reality flight and combat simulators.

he could've gotten drunk and done it.

people also rely on memory and past experiences.

Well there's a difference between what we want and what's going to end up happening. Technological propagation does not follow morality or fairness, it follows only the impartial rules of "Does it work?" and "How can I use it to my advantage?".

tell that to nuclear reactors.

Ergo, while suppressing a certain technology is useful in order to better understand it and learn how to live with it, suppression is ultimately doomed to failure, and if suppression was not concurrent with finding some way to live with it, the most likely result is some sort of collapse or radical change, whether economical, social, etc.

few people have the technology. nuclear tech is being surpressed yet obviously it's not gonna doom. it's a very tight-controlled technology and although it's inevitable other people know about it, still there are few people who actually can build a nuke and fewer who have the tech. besides it's been like 65 years since the tech was introduced.

[guppy338]

tell that to nuclear reactors.

what thay can not talk and they don't have ears

[Crazy Tom]

i don't think military would let anyone go anywhere without a dozen marines for backup.

Haha, yeah... try that. How the hell can you provide enough personnel to oversee every civilian who wants to go offworld? Especially from the colonies.

he could've gotten drunk and done it.

But he didn't have a memory of being drunk. The point is, the memory was too alien, but that didn't prevent him from having access to it. So I don't see how that's a problem for information downloads.

few people have the technology. nuclear tech is being surpressed yet obviously it's not gonna doom. it's a very tight-controlled technology and although it's inevitable other people know about it, still there are few people who actually can build a nuke and fewer who have the tech. besides it's been like 65 years since the tech was introduced.

The difference is that nuclear reactors require some very expensive radioactive fuel, a huge material investment, and the know how to build one.

Things like naqudah explosives ad power sources, their pretty much fair game, the Goa'uld made so much use o them, there are almost ubiquitous.
Now, memory tech isn't so popular, but once the military starts using it, then it'l eventually make it's way into the commercial market, regulated at first, but eventually the know how is going to leak, which makes it a lot easier for somebody with connections to replicate it.

You think China's going to have any issue with mind wiping people who disagree? heck, the Lucian alliance is already using brainwashing technology.

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

Well, from Air, pt. 1 we know the USAF wasn't above using the technology to remove memories. That's the part that concerns me most. We definitely need to recognize that human rights (sentient rights, I suppose we must say in this context) include the right to your memories, and therefore the technology should be extremely limited and very closely watched.

However, I'm skeptical of the memory tech in any event. It seems to me that the person would realize something was wrong anyway, because even in Stargate it's established that there is some sense in which an individual is more than just their bodily functions. In reality, of course, there's no way to define personhood without recognizing a unity apart from the material of a body.

[guppy338]

Can I make a point about the power plants? I take it we are not taking away money and reactors like nuclear, fusion and Naq cost a lot on money. So be that method the western world and the far east will have the good clean power generation and the rest of the world will be using conventional energy production methods am I right in that assessment ?

for the power plants by the 2020 if we have gone post disclosure the first of the newer power station will be popping up.

on the issue of people going off world on many games I play and shows I watch there are people forming independent colony to escape earth and its laws and so on will this be happening hear also or will all colonisation be strictly regulated by the UNE

[Crazy Tom]

Well, from Air, pt. 1 we know the USAF wasn't above using the technology to remove memories. That's the part that concerns me most. We definitely need to recognize that human rights (sentient rights, I suppose we must say in this context) include the right to your memories, and therefore the technology should be extremely limited and very closely watched.

Easy enough to say in a press release, but I doubt any of the more obscure branches of the military would even hesitate to make use of it.

However, I'm skeptical of the memory tech in any event. It seems to me that the person would realize something was wrong anyway, because even in Stargate it's established that there is some sense in which an individual is more than just their bodily functions. In reality, of course, there's no way to define personhood without recognizing a unity apart from the material of a body.

I don't know, Ascension seems to imply that there's something more, but I don't remember anything concrete about it. We've mostly seem humans ascend, but given that most of those had some sort of aid, I'd say that that's just the fact that we're so close genetically to a species who's already done it, so it's easier to manufacture those sorts of aids.

Could be there are all sots of other mechanisms for it.

[Crazy Tom]

Can I make a point about the power plants? I take it we are not taking away money and reactors like nuclear, fusion and Naq cost a lot on money. So be that method the western world and the far east will have the good clean power generation and the rest of the world will be using conventional energy production methods am I right in that assessment ?

for the power plants by the 2020 if we have gone post disclosure the first of the newer power station will be popping up.

on the issue of people going off world on many games I play and shows I watch there are people forming independent colony to escape earth and its laws and so on will this be happening hear also or will all colonisation be strictly regulated by the UNE

Force-field confined fusion would probably be the main power source. It's simple, and the parts are readily available off world.

I don't see how one can stop people making their own independent colonies, but hey wouldn't enjoy UNE protection.

[puddlejumperOZ]

i for one are fed up with the whole naval thing. not that naval or atmospheric warfare is directly compatible with space warfare.

why not scrap the whole "base it offf ranking X" and just create our own rank system for the Space Force.

1/ because the Navy is the most logical lead force for a theoretical "space force". The idea of it is not unique to sci-fi, most of this genre bases their command structure on Navy stratergies and systems.

2/If you do that, you may as well start making this an uber super anythng goes FW fleet. We are trying to replicate canon as close as we can for a future force, albeit in the near future. Military rankings have not chnaged in a hundred years and are unlikely to in the next hundred. You pride yourself on your graphic art Killman, leave the tactical thinking to those who can apply it, or we start denigrating your work as pure FW and nothing less, but we don't because we all have our own specialities here.

[Crazy Tom]

Speaking of which Killman, maybe you should try some flanking attacks in your arguments, rather than charging head first at an issue.

[Weedle]

I read all that stuff, and I think PJ needed to go with the heavy armor first, some people have their head so far up their arse they can't see the big picture. I would have said much the same. I'm army, well reserve any way, and I have to agree with PJ, there is no one but the Navy as much as that hurts to say, that can put a large fleet together and coordinate everything. <snip>

[puddlejumperOZ]

Good back on track.

We need to make a chart, I'm not quite sure as to how to do it on here, but perhaps with word using a graph, we could show the fleet command system plainly do that everyone could understand, I might just sketch one on old fashioned paper and scan it

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

I could do it on Word, then upload it as a picture. Do you want me to do that?