Gateworld Virtual Fleet 4.0 - Discussion thread

[lord groovy]

Can't we rather go with :

Attack fighter (F-100)
Space bomber (SB-200)
Battlecruiser (BC-300)
Cargo ship (CS-400)
Frigate (FR-500)
Destroyer (DD-600)
Cruiser (CR-700)
Missile Cruiser (MC-800)
Carrier (CA-900)
Battlecarrier (BCA-1000)
Battleship (BB-1100)
and so on

Because often in the forums we forget the letters at the beginning and say 304s rather than BC-304s. And we can even go further with 310s, 320s, ... 3X0s series which all fall under the BC-300s denomination but with slight variations.

[Davidtourniquet]

Could do, I was only using those as an example.

[thekillman]

Attack fighter (F-100)
SPACE fighter
Space bomber (SB-200)
to bomb what?
Battlecruiser (BC-300)

yes we need that
Cargo ship (CS-400)
no need for that.

Frigate (FR-500)
Destroyer (DD-600)
more wasted resources on weak ships
Cruiser (CR-700)
Missile Cruiser (MC-800)
IMO one and the same

Carrier (CA-900)
no need for that IMO

Battlecarrier (BCA-1000)
more needless double roles

Battleship (BB-1100)
that's practically what i wanted, yes



Earth is relatively new to spaceflight. i doubt we would make and would need so many dedicated stuff. instead, i'd think they would rather create multi-role ships because seriously, the price list for your list is gonna be WAY too big

[Davidtourniquet]

Well the price list is for Earth building them. Colonies that already have trinium/naquada resources will be able to build ships much cheaper. I don't see how frigates and destroyers are wasting resources, they are key to any fleet. Also if you want a proper anti-fighter defence you'll need specialist carriers to carry some 30/40+ fighters. You wouldn't call an attack fighter, a space fighter. Because an F-302 can fly in space, but it's not called a space fight. Attack fighter does exactly what it says on the tin: it attacks, while an F-302 is a defense fighter. Really having two types of fighters is more of a waste of resources than having frigates or destroyers.
The trouble is, if you make it too cheap, then Earth will have hundreds perhaps thousands of ships. Maybe we can reduce the cost to a few tens of billions (around 50 -70 billion at the least), but its not going to be cheap. The price list isn't suppose to be nice, it's suppose to be realistic based on similar technology we have in the real world.

[thekillman]

seriously. what are we fighting? who? well i tell you. right now, there's some LA factions left, there's some stirring with the jaffa, there are some radicals left, and that's it. everything can be crushed by a few 304's. adding a battleship will allow for more efficient crushing of radicals who acquired some fancy goauld or ori tech. aside from that, a 304 will have many tasks due to it being a formidable craft to be versatile. the new BC will allow better integration of the technology and will probably be more powerful. it'll take on the multi-combat role, while the 304s are on standby for orbital defence, recon, and general law enforcement.


what do destroyers do? what do they fight? they either face a mothership they can't possibly defeat, or they face a ship that the F-302 can already blow out of the sky.

what do cruisers do? what do they fight? they either face a mothership they can't possibly defeat or they commit overkill on fighters.

what do carriers do? carry an extensive fighter fleet? to fight what? death gliders are so pathetic that CIWS combined with a regular wing of F-302's can easily defeat them. besides it does nothing to the fact that whatever ship attacked can blow up the enemy mothership regardless. tel'tak? al'kesh? both still horribly vulnerable to our missiles.




a Fighter, preferably Gate Capable, multi-role, carries AA missiles, and can carry 1 anti-capital nuke. dedicated space fighter, unlike the F-302 which is a multi-role planetary fighter.

a Gunship. carries big missile pods filled with multi-role missiles (both ATG and ATA) and can carry up to 4 nuclear missiles. 2-3x as big as a helicopter, carries a short-ranged hyperdrive, advanced sensor pods, and a "Machine INTAR" under it's cockpit for easy surpressing fire. multi-role, from blowing up a wing of deathgliders in one swift move, to nuking a mothership, to short-ranged recon, and SG-team support and extraction. carries both Atmospheric and Space engines, VTOL, has a pilot, copilot and a gunner.

BC-305. (assuming we still go with 304=350m) 400m Battlecruiser. has two hangar bays, carries 2x 10 F-302's and has 2-4 gunships. has energy weapons, powerful shields, only 10 missile silos, and relies more on energy weapons to do damage. railguns are only present in the form of CIWS. an additional reactor onboard powers the energy weapons. made 100% of Generation IV technology

BB-306. advanced, powerful battleship with just 1 purpose: destroy motherships. after the Goauld Defeat, many Ha'tak vessels were left in the void. nowadays many warlords, and planets have at least one. terrorists and extremists have them. the Lucian Alliance have them. and radical Jaffa have them. though the 304 can bring them down, this is often not without an intense battle. the 306 has one purpose: make that battle easy. it has powerful batteries of energy weapons and has fully sacrificed missile silos for more reactors. by far the most expensive ship of the Human Fleet, the BB-306 is worth every penny in combat. it's not allowed anywhere without a BC covering it's tail for it's only real weakness: nuclear-armed fighters. anything else is easily overcome

[Davidtourniquet]

Killman, this is what we have in the fleet and have done for 3 fleets: We have various classes from the smallest to the largest and build ships for them. You are trying to take that joy out of the fleet.

[Crazy Tom]

CIWS=CLOSE in weapons system. missiles will kill missiles first. CIWS is only for when everything else fails

Oh for ****'s sakes Killman.

Their defensive weapons, they may not be "CIWS", pick at the details all you like, I was using the term as an umbrella for point defense. The USN's experimental laser PD is mounted on CIWS turret.

again i refer to my tech list which shows clearly that though the shields are made by us, they are the culmination of goauld, human, asgard and ancient hyperdrive knowledge, specifically the part that we actually understand. i think it's better if we actually find out WHY the shields work the way they do, instead of stupid copying, as the LA is clearly just as capable of stealing our tech as we stole the goauld's. leading me to believe they are from earth-like worlds which kept themselves silent

Copying is not necessarily bad. The process of copying would likely tech us a lot about their operation. And I can't see anyone passing up more capable tech on matter of principle.

Ahhhh, but the Alesians know that nanotechnology is a rather inefficient way to make war. Nanobots can be easily neutralized with electrical fields or disrupter waves. Even EMP pulses would stop a nanocloud. Not to mention that it would have trouble powering itself, replicating itself. Does it do perfect replication? If not, does it evolve? (which btw is VERY dangerous. See the novel Prey.) How would it counter such obvious countermeasures? How cost efficient is it really? when a macroshell slug or missile or nuke or another weapon of war is MUCH cheaper to produce and does probably the same damage.

All nanotech evolves, you, for example, have a plethora of bio-nanotech systems that keep you alive day and night, your immune system, for example. Cells can mutate beyond design specifications, but their brought into check by the rest of the body. So the benefits outweigh the gains.

I meant replacing infantry in terms of holding territory. Once you've conquered something and pacified the main resistance, you can use anglenets to act as an omnipresent police force, to keep the conquered on line, freeing up your bigger combatants.

Vulnerability to EMP and electrical fields, as well as fuel and mobility, are engineering issues that can be minimized and overcome.

From a production point of view, the fact that you have nanotech in the first place, allows you to manufacture equipment on the spot, in the battlefield itself. Mobile factories can resupply your troops by locally manufacturing material from on site resources. Terms like expense and money, cease to matter in a nanotech capable society, because things can easily be produces with little more than base elements and energy.

Although war driods like in star wars have practical applications, but we see those droids would either be low end, fragile droids, or high end expensive droids that would be more costly than training an Alesian Legionnaire. Plus machines can't think as intelligently or have the same intuitive capability unless the Alesians want to make human form replicators, which would be highly foolish to do. Dangerous as it has proven for other races to attempt.

And the Alesians would never trust their forces to machines most of the time. They went as far as they were willing to go with NABIS, a strategic AI network on board their ships. They don't trust factories or machines to provide war capabilities. If needed, they can disable their AI networks although NABIS has never rebelled.

The intuition argument is simply an expression of human subconscious calculation and blind luck. A machine can't control blind luck, but it has no subconscious, so it would likely be better at predicting things "intuitively" because it could consciously be aware of all the variables it was taking into account.

If you don't want AI, you could have them upload their minds into a machine body for the duration of their deployment. The troops would actually probably be happier, because it would be a lot harder to kill them acting as a distributed intelligence in hardened machination bodies than as puny flesh and bone soldiers.

And the wormhole drive should be ditched. Unless it is about riding natural wormholes (different from the ones created by the stargate) that have fixed positions in space and are big enough to enable the passage of spaceships.

It's a fairly interesting fact that with anti-gravity generators that hyperspace windows seem to use (First Contact), you can hold open a wormhole throat. The problem, is the manufacture of wormhole pairs in the first place. I leave that up to you guys.

Killman, this is what we have in the fleet and have done for 3 fleets: We have various classes from the smallest to the largest and build ships for them. You are trying to take that joy out of the fleet.

We all agree to take the flee tin anew direction, part of that is leaving the old ship system behind, which Killman accurately summarizes as either useless and or overlapping in their duties. His gunship/fighter/battlecruiser/battleship model is far better suited.

My only uncertainty about is is the need for a battleship. A battlecruiser actually designed to be a battelcruiser (rather than a multi-purpose jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none) would be sufficient.
At least for the intern, where the UNE needs ships immediately to protect all it's colonies.

This ship list is neither fixed not permanent. And should in fact be modified as we go along and new enemies present new tactics and technologies that we have to take into account.

A few extra thoughts that have come to me over the days:

Aschen
Do not appear to be imperialistic, at their technological level, they have no need for farming worlds, a sufficient space based farming infrastructure would be more than sufficient.
Their use of farming worlds either means that they do not in fact have the infrastructure to pull off space based agriculture, or they seek to downplay their technological and industrial ability by using farming worlds.
The third option is that they simply converted these planets into farming worlds after conquest for them to serve a useful purpose, rather than just keep them uninhabited. This option also seems to point out that they do no have such a sizable population as these worlds should have been colonized as a way of easing population pressure on the home world.
Conclusion: Given the Achen’s previous tendency to lie and mislead, it is not far fetched to assume they overestimated their industrial/technological capability and or their population level. This conclusion is in line with the Aschen’s preferred tactics of subterfuge and silent warfare.

Asgard Technology:
The fact that the DSC George Hammond is equipped with Asgard beaming technology is indication that Earth is either capable of replicating Asagrd technology or the Asgard left Earth a stockpile of parts and equipment.

Beaming Technology:
If the UNE is indeed incapable of replicating Asgard beaming, then it is my opinion that the systems currently installed aboard Earth’s fleet would be removed and emplaced on specialized platforms to service the rapid expansion of Earth’s off world colonies. A single beaming system could allow colonies rapid transportation form one population center to another, rapid construction of basic structured and rapid mining and excavation.
Given the age and original specifications of the DSC 304 class, it is not unthinkable that the 304 class would be relegated to colonial defense as the UNE introduces newer, more capable combatants into it’s host.

Fusion Technology:
The easy manipulation of force fields allows for the creation of simple pinch fusion reactors, capable of beings adapted for use in current steam driven turbine power plants, allowing for a cheaper, safer, yet more than adequate alternative to expensive and unstable naqudah based power generation technologies.

Enemies:
Lucian Alliance – their increased aggression, and penetration of UNE bases leads me to propose that we ally them with Praxis (the New Mind Goa’uld, Loyalist Jaffa and OP-CORE, providing technology, soldiers, and intelligence respectively). This allows the LA to act in such a way, despite having started out as a little more than a organized crime cartel. It also ties up the SGW storyline nicely into the fleet.

[Davidtourniquet]

So why don't we have a basic fleet with the various ship classes and just increase our ship numbers when we need to.

[blackluster]

http://www.lightspeed-art.com/commun...uide-t629.html

I found the above thread by user Titan_HQ to be an excellent guide on how one might designate ships according to roles. In regards to fleet ships:

Attack fighter (F-100)
Cargo ship (CS-100)
Space bomber (SB-100)
Frigate (FR-100)
Destroyer (DD-100)
Cruiser (CR-100)
Missile Cruiser (MC-100)
Carrier (CA-100)
Battlecruiser (BC-100)
Battlecarrier (BCA-100)
Battleship (BB-100)
(Flagship) possibly

I'd combine the bomber and attack designations into one high speed, modular platform that can be retrofitted either off the production line or in a dock to fulfill the desired role. I think it makes sense if the same chassis can serve in a planetary offense role as well like the 302's, since the numbers of these ships that the stock standard 304 can hold doesn't justify the mass production of a dedicated space fighter. The multi-role nature of the 304 disqualifies that possibility I think, especially in the absence of a dedicated carrier.

A standardized cargo ship chassis is a good call, considering the colony landscape, the little Earth empire will run on the ability to move masses of freight. Custom designs of a utility vessel doesn't make much sense, so one standard chassis seems like the way to go.

The frigate and destroyer seem like vital aspects of the fleet that should definitely be included. They walk an important line between cost and functionality, a tradeoff to the economical end of the scale. Plus, these ship classes really begin to shine since their other purpose to to deploy specialized systems, which I think gives a nice creative scope for the ship designer who is thinking beyond "put more guns on it".

The cruiser, cruiser, carrier, battlecruiser battlecarrier, battleship could be all be fashioned from variants of the same chassis as far as some standard vessel that the fleet 'has to have'. I think making the chassis a 'must have' and letting people go wild on variants would be a decent middle ground. These classes are essentially variants of the same thing, each balancing tradeoff's between amour/shields, weaponry, internal bay space to achieve a different effect whether is be speed, combat persistence, versatility, etc.

[Davidtourniquet]

Having more classes in a fleet will create a more diverse fleet that can respond to various challenges that the galaxy may aim towards us.

[Crazy Tom]

http://www.lightspeed-art.com/commun...uide-t629.html

I found the above thread by user Titan_HQ to be an excellent guide on how one might designate ships according to roles. In regards to fleet ships:


I'd combine the bomber and attack designations into one high speed, modular platform that can be retrofitted either off the production line or in a dock to fulfill the desired role. I think it makes sense if the same chassis can serve in a planetary offense role as well like the 302's, since the numbers of these ships that the stock standard 304 can hold doesn't justify the mass production of a dedicated space fighter. The multi-role nature of the 304 disqualifies that possibility I think, especially in the absence of a dedicated carrier.

A standardized cargo ship chassis is a good call, considering the colony landscape, the little Earth empire will run on the ability to move masses of freight. Custom designs of a utility vessel doesn't make much sense, so one standard chassis seems like the way to go.

The frigate and destroyer seem like vital aspects of the fleet that should definitely be included. They walk an important line between cost and functionality, a tradeoff to the economical end of the scale. Plus, these ship classes really begin to shine since their other purpose to to deploy specialized systems, which I think gives a nice creative scope for the ship designer who is thinking beyond "put more guns on it".

The cruiser, cruiser, carrier, battlecruiser battlecarrier, battleship could be all be fashioned from variants of the same chassis as far as some standard vessel that the fleet 'has to have'. I think making the chassis a 'must have' and letting people go wild on variants would be a decent middle ground. These classes are essentially variants of the same thing, each balancing tradeoff's between amour/shields, weaponry, internal bay space to achieve a different effect whether is be speed, combat persistence, versatility, etc.

I'm a big fan of standardization, and yes, a highly modular ship that you can strap modules onto for different tasks is very useful, but that's exactly what me and Killman are proposing. The gunship is FTl capable, and can carry anything from sensors and ECM equipment, to anti ship, anti fighter, point defense, etc. It may no be able to do these things as well as a specialized design, but due to it' mass producibility, you can field many more, making up for that weakness.

As to variants, I don't think there will be such a profusion, in real life variants are usually platforms for testing new technologies and such. PLUS, big plus here, with nanotech, and other such technologies, a single ship becomes capable of doing many things, by literary changing it's internal structure (but that's in the future), so there isn't that much space for variants. traditionally, all the money used to build such semi-one offs could be spent on creating more standardized designs, translating in a net gain in capability.

Adding a frigate instead of the battleship into Killman's system I think would be the way to go.

So why don't we have a basic fleet with the various ship classes and just increase our ship numbers when we need to.

Because some of those classes do nothing useful or, do something another class does already. In real life, need always drives manufacture. You don't build thing just for the heck of it, they have to do something. Then you have to consider the trade offs between specialized and flexible platforms, their cost versus their ability, etc.

[blackluster]

I'm a big fan of standardization, and yes, a highly modular ship that you can strap modules onto for different tasks is very useful, but that's exactly what me and Killman are proposing. The gunship is FTl capable, and can carry anything from sensors and ECM equipment, to anti ship, anti fighter, point defense, etc. It may no be able to do these things as well as a specialized design, but due to it' mass producibility, you can field many more, making up for that weakness.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the gunship, since while such a size vessel may be effective in a modern maritime sense, I feel their size simply cannot hold the array of systems needed for such a ship to be effective in a mission with an extended period. Considering the sheer size of some systems required for an effective vessel I think scales a gunship in terms of it's role and armament to a frigate anyway. Anything smaller seems wholly ineffective unless it was with a fleet all the time. Larger vessels at least give you a better option of extended missions which considering the massive area to cover, seems like a more logical platform to invest in than swarms of little ships that can't maneuver as well as a fighter and cannot withstand being one-shotted by a capitol ship.

As to variants, I don't think there will be such a profusion, in real life variants are usually platforms for testing new technologies and such. PLUS, big plus here, with nanotech, and other such technologies, a single ship becomes capable of doing many things, by literary changing it's internal structure (but that's in the future), so there isn't that much space for variants. traditionally, all the money used to build such semi-one offs could be spent on creating more standardized designs, translating in a net gain in capability.

I don't take a variant to be a one off platform, but rather a platform that keeps getting parts updated, with the intention that all parts upgrade are to fulfill a particular fleet role, hence defining the ship's designation. Considering how small the variation is in these classes, if you were looking at economic motivation, variants are far cheaper than specialized designs.

[Davidtourniquet]

I still think we need to vote on the various classes and bring them in when we need them. You can't expect colonies to build Battlecruisers from the get go. Over classes do have an importance otherwise they wouldn't be used in various navies around the world. The smaller ships are there to be manouverable, the bigger ships are there to carry the big guns. That's a sweeping generalisation, but it's practically right.

[Princess Awinita]

Ermmm hang on: 1 parsec is approximately 3.3 light years. I don't see where this 0.04 or 0.09ly comes from, because it certainly isn't a parsec.

Star Wars atlas lists 1 parsec as .49 LY

[thekillman]

Killman, this is what we have in the fleet and have done for 3 fleets: We have various classes from the smallest to the largest and build ships for them. You are trying to take that joy out of the fleet.

there are the ships we don't need, there are the ships we don't really need but could use and there are the ships we desperately need.


also there are a dozen other races out there who need new ships.

My only uncertainty about is is the need for a battleship. A battlecruiser actually designed to be a battelcruiser (rather than a multi-purpose jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none) would be sufficient.
At least for the intern, where the UNE needs ships immediately to protect all it's colonies.

i question the ability of a battlecruiser (stargate version) to defeat the stronger capital ships. it might win one-on-one, but against two, your survival time halves and your firepower per ship halves.

Aschen
Do not appear to be imperialistic, at their technological level, they have no need for farming worlds, a sufficient space based farming infrastructure would be more than sufficient.
Their use of farming worlds either means that they do not in fact have the infrastructure to pull off space based agriculture, or they seek to downplay their technological and industrial ability by using farming worlds

i assume it's a matter of convenience and the plain ability to do it.

The third option is that they simply converted these planets into farming worlds after conquest for them to serve a useful purpose, rather than just keep them uninhabited. This option also seems to point out that they do no have such a sizable population as these worlds should have been colonized as a way of easing population pressure on the home world.
Conclusion: Given the Achen’s previous tendency to lie and mislead, it is not far fetched to assume they overestimated their industrial/technological capability and or their population level. This conclusion is in line with the Aschen’s preferred tactics of subterfuge and silent warfare.

the aschen are *from the looks of it* a more scientifically and rationally minded people. they turned their allies to farm worlds because they can, it gave them plenty of land for plenty of food. besides seeing their level of advancement, they probably are more like our "dark side". need space? cut down a forest. except for them it's more of a "need space? conquer a planet "


also as time passes the farm worlds probably serve as pre-expansion worlds. as in, the Aschen farm it now, establish mines, and when the major deposits on the surface are gone, they prep it for new expansion cities.

Asgard Technology:
The fact that the DSC George Hammond is equipped with Asgard beaming technology is indication that Earth is either capable of replicating Asagrd technology or the Asgard left Earth a stockpile of parts and equipment.

we can build it in SG. i call it the ACC: Asgard Computer Core. you know, the thing on the odyssey with the entire asgard database and a matter constructor

Beaming Technology:
If the UNE is indeed incapable of replicating Asgard beaming, then it is my opinion that the systems currently installed aboard Earth’s fleet would be removed and emplaced on specialized platforms to service the rapid expansion of Earth’s off world colonies. A single beaming system could allow colonies rapid transportation form one population center to another, rapid construction of basic structured and rapid mining and excavation.
Given the age and original specifications of the DSC 304 class, it is not unthinkable that the 304 class would be relegated to colonial defense as the UNE introduces newer, more capable combatants into it’s host.

or it serves for SG-team extraction, infiltration into ships etc. either way it has many uses.
also according to my backstory the 304 is intended to be retired as the main ship. Gen IV technology will be the basis for the new ships. near-Deadalus shields, quite fast hyperdrives, etc. however the closer we get to the Deadalus' technology, remember that the rate of advancement will drop. we will run out of easy stuff.

Fusion Technology:
The easy manipulation of force fields allows for the creation of simple pinch fusion reactors, capable of beings adapted for use in current steam driven turbine power plants, allowing for a cheaper, safer, yet more than adequate alternative to expensive and unstable naqudah based power generation technologies.

i think it's crazy to use naquahdah for world power. fusion is better, especially for earth, as it wouldn't allow itself to be dependent on others.

So why don't we have a basic fleet with the various ship classes and just increase our ship numbers when we need to.

a few ships to start with, yes. then we'll see what we need. remember that we definately are not alone in this galaxy.

I'd combine the bomber and attack designations into one high speed, modular platform that can be retrofitted either off the production line or in a dock to fulfill the desired role. I think it makes sense if the same chassis can serve in a planetary offense role as well like the 302's, since the numbers of these ships that the stock standard 304 can hold doesn't justify the mass production of a dedicated space fighter. The multi-role nature of the 304 disqualifies that possibility I think, especially in the absence of a dedicated carrier.

whatever the new fighter craft is gonna be, it's probably gonna be placed on ALL ships, including the 304's. the F-302 will be retired to a planetary defence role. strap a nuclear missile to it and we're fine.

A standardized cargo ship chassis is a good call, considering the colony landscape, the little Earth empire will run on the ability to move masses of freight. Custom designs of a utility vessel doesn't make much sense, so one standard chassis seems like the way to go.

nothing can compete with the cost efficiency of a stargate. also gravity can easily be used to dump immense amounts of supplies through. i doubt we are going to need a cargo ship. maybe it's gonna be a company design. the military seems to use 304's for transport as well. given their humongous fighter bays, that's not a bad move.

The frigate and destroyer seem like vital aspects of the fleet that should definitely be included. They walk an important line between cost and functionality, a tradeoff to the economical end of the scale. Plus, these ship classes really begin to shine since their other purpose to to deploy specialized systems, which I think gives a nice creative scope for the ship designer who is thinking beyond "put more guns on it".

against what do they fight? death gliders? those are so crap our 302's and CIWS can handle it.
Tel'tak? that's what the missiles on our 302's are for.
alkesh? a 302 can beat them.
then the next is a ha'tak and there's no way in hell such a ship can defeat a ha'tak.

Having more classes in a fleet will create a more diverse fleet that can respond to various challenges that the galaxy may aim towards us.

currently the galaxy has very little threats to aim at us. in fact, it's probably never been so calm. but i definately need a Missile Cruiser to fight the Locust.