Gateworld Virtual Fleet 4.0 - Discussion thread

[Gormagon]

how big are those ships with that firepower?

Shogun class battle ship, I am not that great with specific size's and lengths and thins but here is what I got right now- Length- 700meters, depth- 150m, width main body-300m width, auxiliary engines/weapons sails-550 m.

i say nukes are only moderately effective against shields. the obvious reason being, if they were that effective at Nq yields, we'd have nuked the goauld to death in stead of messing about with railguns.

Phase nukes for shields dude. Regulars for planetary bombardment.

also you have no idea what kind of firepower you are talking about.

Big boom! Kilotons, megatons, gigatons, teratons, which I can convert to Joules. What do you mean? How that meshes with kiron theory I do not know.

this isn't 3.0 where every backwater planet has a full-fledged fleet.

They are not backwater planet, they are a kingdom of planets, and they did not just started building they have had 500-600 years to prepare.

your ships would wipe out everyone in the galaxy.

Eh, their original purposes in building this massive fleet was 1- Wiping out the Goa'uld, and 2- To ensure the survival of the Houjin race for continued scientific advancement and exploration. The exploration part was delayed by the Goa'uld. The scientific part was accelerated by the threat of the Goa'uld, as was the need for industry.

Plus they would not wipe everyone out they are not meant to be new bad guys.

from what i've read up, some of the better superalloys use over 10 alloying elements.

Yeah.

so yea, any space Nickel Alloy will be as complex if not complexer. i'm interested in the effects of trinium in alloying. i believe that if my theory is correct, even tenths of percents added would have a noticeable effect.

I should think so. That is also was what I meant(Mostly) when I said trinium alloys for many Houjin items.

[immhotep]

Having been warned of the Goa'uld by the alien race that brought them to Arata Seken through a message in the chamber they left behind, they have been building forces for protection against them and eventually and offensive campaign for around 550-600 years, since 1400-1450 A.D. Suffering minimal losses for centuries, they had a very sizable force at their disposal.

Sorry but that doesnt work. Firstly your forgetting we kinda veto'd the whole furling idea. If your doing the usual goauld thing then maybe your alright but without including that extra race its not really going to fly. As to them building forces for 500 years, ARE YOU KIDDING! You have no idea the kind of drain in resources, let alone the absolute waste of resources, by the time you get to 50 years + in extra development everything you have produced is already obsolete and useless. Its like us going in to Iraq with Maces and chainmail. NO JUST NO. Its absurd. They could never have been producing for such a stupid amount of time without actually engaging in combat based on very limited and vague (theres something out there) knowledge of thier enemy. either they are at war with the goauld and have been for ALONG time, or they are new to the game and have only been fighting for a few decades. If they had advanced further than earth and have decent production that 600 years could be produced in a few decades of patience before retaliation. Then they suffer minimal losses as their war with the goauld coincides with the fall of them to the Tauri and Jaffa. THAT works. 500+ years of stockpiling weapons, its just insane. Get over the point quick cos it can never be justified.

[QUOTE]TOLLAN DEBATE

why? you do realize their entire homeworld was destroyed and they were just rebuilding in Tollana?
Just an aura of....staleness.


second. they had nothing to fear. in hindsight it was stupid. but for the Tollan it made all the sense of the world. their Ion Cannons would've defended them for at least a hundred years.
Who couldn't beat the Tollan weapon system.
They needed a little Tau'ri paranoia.



you do realize that it was during a Trial and SG1 WAS -you got to admit that- trying to sway the Tollan. there was nothing they could prove. no reason to act but mere speculation and finger pointing.
Again, they needed some paranoia. And it was the Goa'uld they were dealing with, that just justifies it more.

Anubis cheated by using Ascended Knowledge to make his shields better.
That was clever, I am not sure I would call it cheating parse. I am not sure if it is possible to cheat in real combat.


so? the tollan were doing an excellent job on destroying anything goauld before it even REMOTELY came to that.
Again....tactical sense. Paranoia. You dont have one layer of planetary defense.(Ion cannons.) What happens if an enemy gets past your one layer? The Stargate probably had safe guards on it.

Pretense showed a flaw of the Tollan, one they likely corrected. after all, the next time a ship visited they did immediately attack. it's just that their weapons were useless.
Mhmmhm.


they weren't stupid or arrogant. WE were arrogant. EXTREMELY arrogant. think like a tollan for a second and you'll realize that they were very nice for not instantly kicking us off their planet.
They were arrogant. Thinking the Goa'uld would never be a threat. But I guess we were also arrogant.

they weren't stupid. they also weren't battle hardened like us for the past god knows how long. their last act of kindness was repayed by total annihilation of the race they helped and nearly their own demise
That was one of the problems.

They lacked tactical sense.

This is an interesting debate, but I think the Tollans were simply unfortunate, as it happens, so were the majority of the Galaxy. They were not the only race which were seriously taken of gaurd by anubis. The Asgard got wiped by them.
As it happens because of the exact same reason the Tollans did, the Ion weapons (I think they used them, others can debate that) also failed to breach Anubis's new shields. In tactical terms the Tollans military has been shown, so they dont "not have a military" they do. Remember when SG1 tried to hide from them. They have very advanced surveillance and patrol systems. More than enough to keep tracked of 6 Jaffa wandering round the planet.

Also they can turn their technology to a military application very quickly, they went from only having ion cannons to having very powerful transphase nukes in about 18months. That kind of flip does not come from a race that is incredibly advanced, and by that nature would make the goauld a lesser tactical priority than any other force. We do not know that the tollan were only engaged in combat with the goauld. They clearly had military power that would overwhealm the goauld even in force. So perhaps another enemy far greater was whom the Tollan were protecting themselves against.

Another point, they were not arrogent to the point of indolence, they had a global network of ion cannons within a few years of building a new homeworld, if they were so arrogent they would have waited knowing they oculd deploy them at any time and be protected.

Secondly, had the goauld not upgraded their shields, and been at least partially effective in being pushed back by ion cannons then I think the tollan would have survived. I am surprised SG1 destroyed the factory, as those nukes could have protected the tollans from anubis. They may have taken losses but not destroying all of it. Now as to the Tollan surviving, think there are SOME out there. Like the Satedans, people stranded offworld etc. I also think that some may be living with the Nox, as they seem to have an especially close relationship ( the nox would not build a SG for anyone!) and there might be potential for the tollan to return. Indeed, in my original drafts of the SOT saga I included the tollan in the colony at Mera along with the Nox and tagreans. I wish I had in many ways as I think the Tollans and Aschen would have a great dynamic that we never fully explored. (think on it )

[fugiman]

Gor also when you say super soldier army how are they super?

I guess what is the difference between a normal human, an average soldier, a ninja and a samurai in terms of strength, speed endurance, and anything else that makes them super.

And when you say they have been building ships for 500 years, do they really use 500 old ships, 400 old, 300 old... so they won't have 500 years of building.

[Gormagon]

Firstly your forgetting we kinda veto'd the whole furling idea. If your doing the usual goauld thing then maybe your alright but without including that extra race its not really going to fly.

I did not say Furlings, and I do not even have to introduce the race into the fleet. Or introduce them as an active, surviving race. For all we know they were wiped out by something, the Goa'uld, a plague, anything. It does not have to influence anything but Houjin society and history.

And when you say they have been building ships for 500 years, do they really use 500 old ships, 400 old, 300 old... so they won't have 500 years of building.

The Goa'uld do. But more to the point, trinium and naquadah alloys make ships that can last a long time. Advanced metallurgic techniques (And eventually nano technology.) would further increase the lifespan of a hull. Although the technology has been updated and upgraded over time, some ships serving in the Houjin fleet have very old yet still perfectly usable hulls. Also, even if that did not fly, old hull can be melted down using plasma and the already refined metals be force field cast into new hulls very, very quickly. Its called recycling. Every year they built up more then the last year already having the required resources at their disposal.

Secondly, Earth built mid sized 6 battle cruisers in what, 7 years? The Houjin with a way superior tech base, budget(Earth had to work in secret) and industrial capacity(More materials, multiple shipyards over multiple planets.) they could build 70 mid sized ships in 7 years. 10 ships a year for a kingdom. I think I see what killman is talking about now actually with the industrial capacity, but its realistic. But the point is, even if they could not use the techniques in the first paragraph, which they can, they would have many vessels within 100-50 years even.

But its not just ships, its population, fortifications, supplies, industrial base, stability.

I guess what is the difference between a normal human, an average soldier, a ninja and a samurai in terms of strength, speed endurance, and anything else that makes them super.

Lets average a Samurai and a human soldier. These are rough estimates.
Normal human soldier.
Curl- 35 lbs.
Bench-200 lbs.
Reaction time- 200 miliseconds.
Samurai
Curl- 100 lbs
Bench- 400 lbs
Reaction time- 25- 50 miliseconds?
They are not "supermen" though, a bullet to the heart or head will kill them.
I can give you more detail with their bio engineering technology if you like, I based some of the Houjins abilities on people figured below, from a TV show I watched, there are more on the site you can see. I plan to do more research myself to help me design my soldiers.
http://www.history.com/shows/stan-le...modern-samurai
http://www.history.com/shows/stan-le...ios/quick-draw
http://www.history.com/shows/stan-le...super-strength

[Gormagon]

It made a double post for some reason I erased it.^

[Crazy Tom]

I came up with a new refit for the Shogun class ships.
As you guys know, Houjin ships posses a very high initial level of fire power, far surpassing that of a Ha'tak. The heavy weapons systems used include thermonuclear missiles or naquadah enhanced missiles, e.m.p bombs and fusion cannons. All expendable. This was never an logistical issue before because the fire power allowed them to decimate any Ha'tak in seconds too minutes.

The non expendable armaments, the particle beam arrays and point defense, are ineffective against heavily shielded or larger vessels in the case of the point defense weapons.

The conflict with the Anubis scouting group was what got the ball rolling, then the war with the Mekanikaru kumo(Replicators) put it in over drive. Their weapons not only lost much of their effectiveness on these new shields used by Ha'tak class ships, but they expended their ordinance in several cases. This added onto logistical fears the Houjin had, and RnD got to work.

The result?
The Shogun class ships started to be refitted with all the latest technologies, and had their weapons systems overhauled. 10 of its heavy fusion cannon hard points were replaced with newly developed Houjin death sabers, a plasma based weapon system that can switch between pulses and beams. Like the particle weapons, the death sabers were equipped with multiple high energy capacitors which are charged with excess energy when not in combat.(More information on death sabers to be added.) The 4 heavy fusion cannons left over were enlarged, increasing their yield by 100%.

With the missiles and bombs, there was not much that could be done about how much space was already used in the ships, so they upgraded the missiles and bomb weapons. Smaller, more compact allowing more to be put in the space available, yet they are just as powerful as the previous versions. The missile tube and bomb bay launch/drop rate were also increased in efficiency with enhanced robotics.

This represents a medium sized tech advancement for the Houjin. (Tiny, small, medium, large, huge,)

It was the hope of the Houjin to spread these upgrades to all the ships in their navy.

It won't fly. Simply due to logistics, the sort of overhaul you want to make would require that you replace a majority of the ship's internal systems. Systems that were not meant to be replaced on such a scale, structural members that were not supposed to pop out at all.
Unless your ships are made of repli-blocks, it'll be cheaper and faster to actually build entirely new ships.

Secondly, unless you can actually come up with more than "fires a beam and a pulse", I don't see a point to the so called "death sabers" (cheesy, cringe worthy name BTW). Why is the ability to switch between beam and pulse important?

And thirdly, "enlarging" those fusion cannons of yours is gonna be a *****, since my understanding is they're already wave motion guns, and you would need to overhaul no just the power conduits feeding them, but the mounts that hold them.

[thekillman]

Phase nukes for shields dude. Regulars for planetary bombardment.

it's not magic. phase nukes are my theoretical tech, and i really doubt they will turn nukes into super-effective weapons. they're much more of a missing link between DEWs and nukes.

Big boom! Kilotons, megatons, gigatons, teratons, which I can convert to Joules. What do you mean? How that meshes with kiron theory I do not know.

no. if your race is that strong against the Goauld, they are the superpower of this galaxy. they beat the Tau'ri, in fact everyone.

They are not backwater planet, they are a kingdom of planets, and they did not just started building they have had 500-600 years to prepare.

i wasn't referring to your planet but rather everone else.

Eh, their original purposes in building this massive fleet was 1- Wiping out the Goa'uld, and 2- To ensure the survival of the Houjin race for continued scientific advancement and exploration. The exploration part was delayed by the Goa'uld. The scientific part was accelerated by the threat of the Goa'uld, as was the need for industry.

Plus they would not wipe everyone out they are not meant to be new bad guys.

with such firepower the Lucian-Tau'ri war is over in, well, less than a month? with minimal casualties on the Houjin side and no help from others?

Sorry but that doesnt work

good point tep.

So perhaps another enemy far greater was whom the Tollan were protecting themselves against.

given that a military is usually well-protected, pretty mobile and well-equipped, they would be among the main survivors of the cataclysm at Tollan.

also it's likely they were just defending from the Goauld and decided to be prepared for a major attack. plus, remember that they were in the middle of a rebuild and thus production would be one major thing.

It won't fly.

true.



Gor;

i do not see why you're so afraid to let them fight the goauld. i'm no expert on asian cultures, but i think it would've been a matter of honor for some guy like Yu. plus, given that he's kind of senile, i doubt he would ever bring up the houjin in other matters. hell, it's possible his First prime knew but Yu himself did not.

a 500 year old ship is simply going to be outdated. worse, retrofiting and maintaining such a fleet would place an immense strain on the production capacity, probably far more than maintaining a production line.


and worst of all, i think the common Houjin citizen would get really fed up with building and maintaning a fleet nobody has a use for, to fight an enemy that never shows itself and never attacks, and i think everyone of them would quickly question the use of it, the hostility of the aliens and the supposed allies they have.

a sustained war would be different. granted, the citizens would get fed up with it, however the Government can simply show evidence of what the Goauld do to competition and it'll reinvigorate the war. yes it would cost a lot. but less than maintaining a 500 year old fleet.


furthermore, the Houjin would simply salvage the wrecks of war, take out whatever's re-useable, melt down the rest, and use shield-membrane technology to filter the molten metal into their base components. or actively mix in other metals to create new alloys from this metal soup, after which the metal is either worked up to military grade hardware, or is simply used for commercial applications.

[Gormagon]

It won't fly. Simply due to logistics, the sort of overhaul you want to make would require that you replace a majority of the ship's internal systems. Systems that were not meant to be replaced on such a scale, structural members that were not supposed to pop out at all.

Sounds like your describing my Grandads gastrointestinal system...
Anyways, I did not say overnight for goodness sake. I geuss you are right, but I figured nanites could help speed up the process.
(Dont start screaming about nanites people, Houjin nanites are really not a very large threat. Not nearly as sophisticated as Ancient nanites. No more a danger then a bio-engineered virus. Except that the nanites are susceptible to EMP, a virus would not be.)

Unless your ships are made of repli-blocks, it'll be cheaper and faster to actually build entirely new ships.

Hmmm...Replicator blocks....(no I am kidding.)
Are you sure it would be cheaper and faster? If it is ill use it.

Secondly, unless you can actually come up with more than "fires a beam and a pulse", I don't see a point to the so called "death sabers" (cheesy, cringe worthy name BTW). Why is the ability to switch between beam and pulse important?

I said more was going to be added. I have an appointment to have my teeth tortured so I do not have time to post it right now but I shall as soon as I can. Beam and pulse? My first thought was that it pulses take less power then beams, but I suppose you could just decrease the beam power.

And thirdly, "enlarging" those fusion cannons of yours is gonna be a *****, since my understanding is they're already wave motion guns, and you would need to overhaul no just the power conduits feeding them, but the mounts that hold them.

The old ones were taken out and a new fusion cannon system put in. I should have been more specific. But they do not exactly run on power like other weapons though, they have fuel, ammunition, in the form of tritium deuterium. Not sure how that effects conduits.

it's not magic. phase nukes are my theoretical tech, and i really doubt they will turn nukes into super-effective weapons. they're much more of a missing link between DEWs and nukes.

My magic level is 99 in Runescape.(Not botted or auto clicked or paid someone else to it it ether. I did it myself.)

They are not super effective, not like drones, in my mind they are very long range(Longer then energy weapons) weapons just as effective as your normal refined directed plasma weapon with a higher potential power yield stored in the warhead.

And stop saying its a theory its a theory. They are good theories that fit in very well with Stargate. If it flies use it I say.( Like K-naq......) Since the actual tech is never gonna be explained by any official source lets get cracking, for instance, how high of a yield of a standard nuclear weapon would it take to down a normal Ha'taks shields? I would guestimate 10 gigatons. I say 10 gigatons because of a purely visual observation of a 1000mt naquadah enhance nuke hitting the shield of a Ha'tak and what effect it had. Now, the naquadah in that nuke would have given it a exotic effect, but not very much see it was raw naquadah shoved into the warhead. The Tau'ri did not know much about it so it was nothing like a phase nuke.

no. if your race is that strong against the Goauld, they are the superpower of this galaxy. they beat the Tau'ri, in fact everyone.

It is just a matter of well designed firepower. I went and did it, and now you dont like it. What the heck. You did this! You told me to build ships to combat superior opponents! I blame you!!!!

There are other races besides the Goa'uld.

Besides, in my opinion the LA should have been scraped by season 4 of Atlantas. I mean come on. Your LA might be better, but I thought they were less of a direct military power and more of an underground criminal organization. (Besides the fact that they have to die at some point.)

However, the Houjin do not even have to get involved very much or not at all with the LA. We can say they are focusing on internal matters right now. Ooh ohh, The KK came back! In force, and they have been busy fighting them. The KK evolved into a mini empire on the edge of the MW, after the pirates united. The KK then get turned back into a group of squabling pirates.

Better idea, they realized they may not have been as advanced as they once thought after encountering the Replicators and Anubis Ha'tak and inverted a little, add that to the demise of the Goa'uld domain. So, unknown dangers and no more big enemy to fight. Those unknown dangers have led to a shift of resources into the Ninja class for intelligence gathering and the development of better stealth technology for exploring the galaxy safely. And, they have been doing that for about 10 years now, so they are aware of the situation with the LA, but want to know if the Tau'ri are any better before they act,and they have operatives on Earth.

Hold the phone.....what about the Ori? Dont really want to get them involved with my guys so much but what about them? Wait a second.....there it is. The Houjin decide to switch to origin, believing the Sky Gods have returned, but others do not believe so, and it starts a civil war, the first in a 1000 years! The quick demise of the Ori fleet and the hideous actions of the Ori own followers stops them(Intelligence network) wanting to convert for they realize that this is not the path, but it sets them back a bit. THEN the KK take advantage of the weakened empire to strike, then the KK are taken out, and now they are a more cautious race with all those agents around and stuff.

I do not have ADHD at all.

i wasn't referring to your planet but rather everone else.

Ah, they do not want to kill everyone.

with such firepower the Lucian-Tau'ri war is over in, well, less than a month? with minimal casualties on the Houjin side and no help from others?

Hmmm, I might have done my job too well.

given that a military is usually well-protected, pretty mobile and well-equipped, they would be among the main survivors of the cataclysm at Tollan.

Possible.(Pig)<Movie quote joke.

also it's likely they were just defending from the Goauld and decided to be prepared for a major attack. plus, remember that they were in the middle of a rebuild and thus production would be one major thing.

Yeah.

Gor;

i do not see why you're so afraid to let them fight the goauld. i'm no expert on asian cultures, but i think it would've been a matter of honor for some guy like Yu. plus, given that he's kind of senile, i doubt he would ever bring up the houjin in other matters. hell, it's possible his First prime knew but Yu himself did not.

Ok Ok...Ill get to work on it. Goa'uld scary bad.....

a 500 year old ship is simply going to be outdated. worse, retrofiting and maintaining such a fleet would place an immense strain on the production capacity, probably far more than maintaining a production line.

Melt it down.

and worst of all, i think the common Houjin citizen would get really fed up with building and maintaning a fleet nobody has a use for, to fight an enemy that never shows itself and never attacks, and i think everyone of them would quickly question the use of it, the hostility of the aliens and the supposed allies they have.

I guess so.

a sustained war would be different. granted, the citizens would get fed up with it, however the Government can simply show evidence of what the Goauld do to competition and it'll reinvigorate the war. yes it would cost a lot. but less than maintaining a 500 year old fleet.

Sustained for a while perhaps, but then off and on fighting for centuries, just to keep the flame going.

furthermore, the Houjin would simply salvage the wrecks of war, take out whatever's re-useable, melt down the rest, and use shield-membrane technology to filter the molten metal into their base components. or actively mix in other metals to create new alloys from this metal soup, after which the metal is either worked up to military grade hardware, or is simply used for commercial applications.

Yeah.

[morrismike]

gah fail on my account.

\

trinium is not dense and much stronger than Steel. the strength-weight factor being 100




no



how big are those ships with that firepower?


i say nukes are only moderately effective against shields. the obvious reason being, if they were that effective at Nq yields, we'd have nuked the goauld to death in stead of messing about with railguns.



also you have no idea what kind of firepower you are talking about. this isn't 3.0 where every backwater planet has a full-fledged fleet. your ships would wipe out everyone in the galaxy.




ah yes that explains a lot.




from what i've read up, some of the better superalloys use over 10 alloying elements.

so yea, any space Nickel Alloy will be as complex if not complexer. i'm interested in the effects of trinium in alloying. i believe that if my theory is correct, even tenths of percents added would have a noticeable effect.

They don't actually say strength to weight for Trinium. What they are proposing is impossible for a lot of reasons. I would guess the trinium is like an isomer of aluminum (if elements could have isomers). Standard steel ranges from 30 to 40 ksi yield and I could see trinium alloys being 50% the weight of steel and 10x stronger but no more than that. I could also see trinium alloys used to make metal styrofoam (5% the weight of steel and 10x stronger -- 200x strength to weight).

[thekillman]

They don't actually say strength to weight for Trinium

they say it's 100x stronger and lighter. which i -from a realistic standpoint- consider a better strength/weight ratio.

[fugiman]

they say it's 100x stronger and lighter. which i -from a realistic standpoint- consider a better strength/weight ratio.

Carter "It's supposed to be 100 times lighter and stronger than steel" that's from the episode Spirits in season 2

[thekillman]

but that would mean it's literally 10 000x better than stee;

[morrismike]

Carter "It's supposed to be 100 times lighter and stronger than steel" that's from the episode Spirits in season 2

It can't be 100 x lighter than steel. Water is only about 8 times lighter than steel. It might be more accurate to say "it can be alloyed to be significantly stronger than steel from a strenght to weight ratio. It is quite possible that structural elements (beams, tubes, supports) could be make 100x lighter. Both Aluminum and Titanium are much lighter than steel and in their pure annealed form are basically silly putty (useless engineering materials), alloy them up and they can be much stronger than convention low alloy steel. There are things you can do with steel that could never be attempted with Al or Ti alloys.

[morrismike]

but that would mean it's literally 10 000x better than stee;

They really needed a science advisor to read those scripts.

[thekillman]

well my theory uses slightly more exotic physics to explain it, but even then 100x stronger AND lighter than steel is crazy.