Gateworld Virtual Fleet 4.0 - Discussion thread

[Gormagon]

that was not the point of comparison

But I felt it needed to be said. My point was that the Houjin would not make the same mistakes.

How were the Tollans morons? Because instead of being a society based on war they wanted to live a peaceful Utopian life and not bug anyone else? Sounds like a nice place to live if you ask me.

They were morons in the areas I said in my post.

Sure. Nothing wrong with that. Except when your in a bad part of the galaxy, surrounded by evil snake heads.

And it always seemed like they were stagnant to me. Set in their ways, you know?

Also if it hadn't been for trickery or cheating the Tollan would still be in the SG Verse. Oh how I miss the Tollan. I really wish that Anubis hadn't killed them off or did he?

Unfortunately there was trickery, not necessarily cheating mind you, just underhand tactics. The Goa'uld do not "cheat fair", the Tollan should have remembered that. They were naive to expect any less.

Mhm no Id say some survived the attack. Some ships escaped.

Also how do standing armies compete against bombardment from space?

Hello, Jaffa ground assault following the bombardment? The Goa'uld would have wanted their tech, and to subjugate the "mighty Tollans".

[thekillman]

Sure. Nothing wrong with that. Except when your in a bad part of the galaxy, surrounded by evil snake heads.

we don't KNOW that.

And it always seemed like they were stagnant to me. Set in their ways, you know?

why? you do realize their entire homeworld was destroyed and they were just rebuilding in Tollana?


second. they had nothing to fear. in hindsight it was stupid. but for the Tollan it made all the sense of the world. their Ion Cannons would've defended them for at least a hundred years.

Unfortunately there was trickery, not necessarily cheating mind you, just underhand tactics. The Goa'uld do not "cheat fair", the Tollan should have remembered that. They were naive to expect any less.

you do realize that it was during a Trial and SG1 WAS -you got to admit that- trying to sway the Tollan. there was nothing they could prove. no reason to act but mere speculation and finger pointing.

Hello, Jaffa ground assault following the bombardment? The Goa'uld would have wanted their tech, and to subjugate the "mighty Tollans".

so? the tollan were doing an excellent job on destroying anything goauld before it even REMOTELY came to that.

Pretense showed a flaw of the Tollan, one they likely corrected. after all, the next time a ship visited they did immediately attack. it's just that their weapons were useless.


they weren't stupid or arrogant. WE were arrogant. EXTREMELY arrogant. think like a tollan for a second and you'll realize that they were very nice for not instantly kicking us off their planet.


they weren't stupid. they also weren't battle hardened like us for the past god knows how long. their last act of kindness was repayed by total annihilation of the race they helped and nearly their own demise

[fugiman]

Sure. Nothing wrong with that. Except when your in a bad part of the galaxy, surrounded by evil snake heads.

Who couldn't beat the Tollan weapon system. Its like when Daniel used the Satellite weapon on Moscow. Russia never thought someone would advance that far in such a short time so they didn't have the chance to develop counter measures. Just like the Tollan who didn't think a goa'uld had better shields but Anubis used Ascended knowledge so that wasn't their fault.

And it always seemed like they were stagnant to me. Set in their ways, you know?

Just like every other race in stargate who gets to a certain point.

Unfortunately there was trickery, not necessarily cheating mind you, just underhand tactics. The Goa'uld do not "cheat fair", the Tollan should have remembered that. They were naive to expect any less.

Anubis cheated by using Ascended Knowledge to make his shields better.

Mhm no Id say some survived the attack. Some ships escaped.

I believe Narim said "our ships attempting to escape are being shot down" so I don't think any ships made it out.

Hello, Jaffa ground assault following the bombardment? The Goa'uld would have wanted their tech, and to subjugate the "mighty Tollans".

Well if ground forces were to much for the Jaffa then they would go back to bombing from orbit till the ground forces either surrendered or died. Plus the Goa'uld would prefer a civilization to die then any chance of them coming back to hurt them. Then once all the ground forces are dead come in and search for any tech. If none is left so be it.

[Gormagon]

why? you do realize their entire homeworld was destroyed and they were just rebuilding in Tollana?

Just an aura of....staleness.

second. they had nothing to fear. in hindsight it was stupid. but for the Tollan it made all the sense of the world. their Ion Cannons would've defended them for at least a hundred years.

Who couldn't beat the Tollan weapon system.

They needed a little Tau'ri paranoia.

you do realize that it was during a Trial and SG1 WAS -you got to admit that- trying to sway the Tollan. there was nothing they could prove. no reason to act but mere speculation and finger pointing.

Again, they needed some paranoia. And it was the Goa'uld they were dealing with, that just justifies it more.

Anubis cheated by using Ascended Knowledge to make his shields better.

That was clever, I am not sure I would call it cheating parse. I am not sure if it is possible to cheat in real combat.

so? the tollan were doing an excellent job on destroying anything goauld before it even REMOTELY came to that.

Again....tactical sense. Paranoia. You dont have one layer of planetary defense.(Ion cannons.) What happens if an enemy gets past your one layer? The Stargate probably had safe guards on it.

Pretense showed a flaw of the Tollan, one they likely corrected. after all, the next time a ship visited they did immediately attack. it's just that their weapons were useless.

Mhmmhm.

they weren't stupid or arrogant. WE were arrogant. EXTREMELY arrogant. think like a tollan for a second and you'll realize that they were very nice for not instantly kicking us off their planet.

They were arrogant. Thinking the Goa'uld would never be a threat. But I guess we were also arrogant.

they weren't stupid. they also weren't battle hardened like us for the past god knows how long. their last act of kindness was repayed by total annihilation of the race they helped and nearly their own demise

That was one of the problems.

They lacked tactical sense.

[thekillman]

They needed a little Tau'ri paranoia.

except every Tollan would know it was unfounded.

Again, they needed some paranoia. And it was the Goa'uld they were dealing with, that just justifies it more.

why? they were beating the crap out of any goauld visiting. it justified them doing NOTHING. well technically they did something. they were rebuilding.

That was clever, I am not sure I would call it cheating parse. I am not sure if it is possible to cheat in real combat.

how is this not cheating?

Again....tactical sense. Paranoia. You dont have one layer of planetary defense.(Ion cannons.) What happens if an enemy gets past your one layer? The Stargate probably had safe guards on it.

you do realize that this never ever happened before and never ever did anyone ever get ever even close to ever penetrating ever the ever defences. EVER.

Tollana was untouchable for the Goauld. they really could not defeat the Tollan. remember that if this was their original homeworld, the Goauld would've needed far, far more than 1 ha'tak to wipe out all cannons. i believe Earth needed 135.

They were arrogant. Thinking the Goa'uld would never be a threat. But I guess we were also arrogant.

no they were not. they were realistic. you do realize that the thing with Anubis had never happened before and nobody ever conceived of a scenario where a goauld could ascend. it was unthinkable yet you treat it like the next logical step.


the Tollan were realistic. we were downright arrogant. if i had been Narim, i would've kicked O'neill off the planet.


you do realize the Tollan would never have been touched if their homeworld had not been destroyed. and you know why that happened? they were KIND.

They lacked tactical sense.

again that tactical sense excuse. the TOLLAN did not have WAR. they simply did not have to fight over things. which is EXACTLY why they weren't battle hardened. they had no battles to harden in.

that's a flaw to some. but it's a strength to others.

[thekillman]

Simple thoughts....

i can give you two options:


1: use trinium and naquahdah. increases the cost. increases the rarity of the materials used. would make it harder to produce. would require military cooperation (I suspect only the Military would be allowed to use the Trinity of materials). the craft would have unparallelled if not outlandish power/weight ratios. the engines would be significantly more powerful and significantly lighter, while the greater power of the engines further enhances the cargo capacity.


2: do not use trinium and naquahdah. would require alloys made of somewhat rare and expensive materials. not as expensive as Nq and Tr. no alien alloys means any company can produce it. the craft is heavier and weaker, but easier to mass-produce. no technological surprises due to using unknown things. no testing costs for all the new stuff on board, as you don't have that stuff. you play purely with the known, with all the benefits of it. (and the weaknesses of not having Nq and Tr).


you can increase the cost and production cost and make it more versatile, or make it cheaper with standard weaponry. i'd go for the first option. add in universal missile rack mounts, gun turret hardpoints, and overdesign critical components to ensure that in the future, -if needed- bigger engines, better armor etc can be fitted.


that too increases cost.



alternatively, you can make it "russian", in that it's dirt cheap, expendable but by far not as reliable or versatile.

[Gormagon]

how is this not cheating?

Again, there is no such thing as cheating in a real war or conflict when there are no rules, there are only tactics. You can cheat in monopoly, or Poker, which are games with set rules. Not really sure how else to explain it.

you do realize that this never ever happened before and never ever did anyone ever get ever even close to ever penetrating ever the ever defences. EVER.

But what if they did?

Tollana was untouchable for the Goauld. they really could not defeat the Tollan. remember that if this was their original homeworld, the Goauld would've needed far, far more than 1 ha'tak to wipe out all cannons. i believe Earth needed 135.

I thought it was 38. I bet you a vote privilege it was 38, not including backups.

But what about other races besides the Goa'uld? This is were tactical sense and paranoia come in.

no they were not. they were realistic. you do realize that the thing with Anubis had never happened before and nobody ever conceived of a scenario where a goauld could ascend. it was unthinkable yet you treat it like the next logical step.

World trade center.

the Tollan were realistic. we were downright arrogant. if i had been Narim, i would've kicked O'neill off the planet.

And they would have all died alot sooner.
Narim did have his head "in his as*" as O'Neill stated in which ever episode it was, the evidence all pointed to what the Tau'ri were saying, that the Curia was behind the plots and things. But at least he came around and he destroyed those phase bombs.

you do realize the Tollan would never have been touched if their homeworld had not been destroyed.

We do not know that.

they were KIND.

I am not arguing that they were not a great race of people. They were.

again that tactical sense excuse. the TOLLAN did not have WAR. they simply did not have to fight over things. which is EXACTLY why they weren't battle hardened. they had no battles to harden in.
that's a flaw to some. but it's a strength to others.

In scifi and fantasy it is usually a flaw. In this case it was a flaw. They got mostly wiped out.

Oh, Fugiman, some of the ships could have escaped. Its possible. We do not know how many there were, and considering they evacuated their whole civ it was most likely alot. Some could have jumped to hyperspace as soon as possible. Just saying.

Also, if no one objects I was going to adjust the Houjin page on the wiki with the new dates and things.

[Princess Awinita]

Option one garners the following results....

• 25% Tr
• 25% Nq
• 45% Steel
• 5% glass/other needs.
  • Plus side
    • Better speed+weight ablity
    • Durable, can outlast the pilots given to each craft if one must
    • Can be used anywhere
  • Downside
    • Costly per craft

Option two garners only the following

• 95% Steel
• 5% glass/other
  • Plus side
    • Cheap to make in bulk
    • Not so great weight/speed ablity
  • Downside
    • Durablity is lost
    • Cannot be used anywhere

I think, personally, I'd go first with option two to at least get the feel for the craft, then start to supply the blades and motors for same of different alloys perhaps. Then as time goes on, slowly evolve each lineup, at the moment I have three present

• S1
• SS1-24
• SA1-13

Again these craft can be used in any kind of mission, be it a medical chopper need or even a medical chopper ot patrol for a convoy of some kind. Whatever the need these craft can do it, basically

At the moment I am not too focused on weapon mounts

[thekillman]

Again, there is no such thing as cheating in a real war or conflict when there are no rules, there are only tactics. You can cheat in monopoly, or Poker, which are games with set rules. Not really sure how else to explain it.

i consider it "cheating"

I thought it was 38. I bet you a vote it was 38, not including backups.

But what about other races besides the Goa'uld? This is were tactical sense and paranoia come in.

what other races besides the goauld?

and i bet you a vote it was over 100. 135, 138. something like that.

38 is the amount of minutes a Gate can remain open.

But what if they did?

no.

World trade center.

it would be the equivalent of the WTC being covered in AA batteries and then a single plane goes through, takes a massive beating without scratches and then destroys the entire building.

And they would have all died alot sooner.
Narim did have his head "in his as*" as O'Neill stated in which ever episode it was, the evidence all pointed to what the Tau'ri were saying, that the Curia was behind the plots and things. But at least he came around and he destroyed those phase bombs.

no. they would never have died had they not been kind in that instance.


second. Narim was stupid. he sacrificed his own people for a race without spaceships.

We do not know that.

1: it was untouched by the goauld
2: it had a LOT more guns than Tollana.

In scifi and fantasy it is usually a flaw. In this case it was a flaw. They got mostly wiped out.

though every piece of luck against them.

95% Steel

no. i'd go for aluminium alloys and Nickel superalloys. as well as Carbon fibers and other advanced materials we can not conceive of. (maybe a Gold/DNA crystal alloy?)

At the moment I am not too focused on weapon mounts

a combat medical chopper will likely need some surpressing firepower.

[thekillman]

oh and the Curia in Between Two Fires had no choice. the alternative was annihilation. and in that case, Anubis could acquire tech from them and use it against others.

[Gormagon]

From a script thing>

Hammond: How many do we need to set up a proper protective net around the entire planet?
Carter: ...Thirty-eight... minimum.
Jackson & O'Neill: Thirty-eight?
Carter: To provide total, global coverage? Yes, sir. And that's not including back-ups.
O'Neill: It couldn't hurt to ask, sir.

I win And to make absolutely sure I will watch that part in the episode again.

Edit-I watched it again. It was 38.

2: it had a LOT more guns than Tollana.

Would not have mattered, Anubis had shields immune to their effects remember?

[Princess Awinita]

World trade center.

May those that perished there rest in peace. I for one want to wake up from that nightmare....

Back to the topic at hand!....

[Princess Awinita]

no. i'd go for aluminium alloys and Nickel superalloys. as well as Carbon fibers and other advanced materials we can not conceive of. (maybe a Gold/DNA crystal alloy?)

a combat medical chopper will likely need some surpressing firepower.

Crystal/golod mixture is possible, since there are several planetiods I bet that have numerous deposits of crystal or gold seams.....

Nickel is a type of steel yes ? If so, it can be counted under the 95% steel count, the glass is for the cockpit windows and control screens. As by now we'd be mostly touch screen controls and the like.

[blackluster]

Defining the metallic composition seems like pointless semantics. The craft would either use whatever materials comprise a modern Osprey (Steel, carbon fiber and aluminum) or it would use fictional materials like naquadah or trinium. If the durability is bothering you, you could apply combinations off the bat, but nothing much changes inside or out.

Arming it seems strange and makes me question its purpose once more. If the mission is military in nature, the fleet already has a gun ship that will do the job better. Keeping it at law enforcement level or small spec op missions, the less expensive the craft is the better, which means more conventional materials and less expensive, hard to come by alloys that are needed for the fleet.

Idea's for armament:

You could go with a helicopter gunship spread which would include:

Swiveling machine gun (either a chain gun or auto-cannon for heavier caliber) - the co pilot may control this.
Rocket launchers - 2 pods or something
short range armour piercing missile - anti armour or anti personnel (people holed up in a bunker or something), 8 in total
Smoke/tear gas dispensers

Basing the design on an Osprey-like shape, the gun would be nose mounted, rockets maybe lower-sides mounted, missiles top fuselage, and nothing on the wings.

[Princess Awinita]

Defining the metallic composition seems like pointless semantics. The craft would either use whatever materials comprise a modern Osprey (Steel, carbon fiber and aluminum) or it would use fictional materials like naquadah or trinium. If the durability is bothering you, you could apply combinations off the bat, but nothing much changes inside or out.

Arming it seems strange and makes me question its purpose once more. If the mission is military in nature, the fleet already has a gun ship that will do the job better. Keeping it at law enforcement level or small spec op missions, the less expensive the craft is the better, which means more conventional materials and less expensive, hard to come by alloys that are needed for the fleet.

Idea's for armament:

You could go with a helicopter gunship spread which would include:

Swiveling machine gun (either a chain gun or auto-cannon for heavier caliber) - the co pilot may control this.
Rocket launchers - 2 pods or something
short range armour piercing missile - anti armour or anti personnel (people holed up in a bunker or something), 8 in total
Smoke/tear gas dispensers

Basing the design on an Osprey-like shape, the gun would be nose mounted, rockets maybe lower-sides mounted, missiles top fuselage, and nothing on the wings.

This is my plan, Ospreys are too big, and when one says gunship everyone things big as possible, not me, the smaller the better. Osprey is still too large. So helicopter, like a Bell 429 sized craft, or maybe a Blackhawk sized craft, is best suited for what I have in mind.

Muy plan is to eliminate the need to replace ever gunship/heilcopter lost in a SpecOp mission, to eliminate that, one will have ot make the machines reliable and durable