Gateworld Virtual Fleet 4.0 - Discussion thread

[Crazy Tom]

Toms use of them is my main reason for not using them. It just never sits right within the stargate universe.

I mean I would be fine with robots as long as they can die easily. I would just hate to see a new form of replicator.

Other then that I'm always open to new ideas

Really guys? Two things: one, world militaries are already beginning to augment their forces with robots, and at this rate, the bigger part of the work will be done by robots as soon as they gain the capabilities. But most of the cool stuff happens in the private sector, civilian augs won't be nearly as overbuilt, nor will civilian robots and androids.

Police and military will have sturdier ones, but that's nothing new. And there's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that says that it's a monopolized technology.

[Gormagon]

*zz....*

Woa. Huh? Where am I? Oh...

Yeees. Police and military have big robots with guns zet go boom.^

I was just thinking the Houjin could have like, repair bots, cleaning bots, and BATTLE BOTS!!! Based a little off of a Terminator 800 model, but Stargates version of it. Fusion powered, trinium alloy frame, Houjin armor, built in plasma and particle weapons, nano regeneration systems to effect some repairs.

[immhotep]

Really guys? Two things: one, world militaries are already beginning to augment their forces with robots, and at this rate, the bigger part of the work will be done by robots as soon as they gain the capabilities. But most of the cool stuff happens in the private sector, civilian augs won't be nearly as overbuilt, nor will civilian robots and androids.

Police and military will have sturdier ones, but that's nothing new. And there's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that says that it's a monopolized technology.

You said 2 things and Ill just add a third. It doesnt fit, this is one of the biggest things I disagree with. Just because real world militaries are doing it doesnt mean we should be. In the stargate universe we are world building in the context that stargate has experience the rise and fall of the replicators, they would be extremely wary of any kind of technology that goes in that direction, especially with military applications.

I was just thinking the Houjin could have like, repair bots, cleaning bots, and BATTLE BOTS!!! Based a little off of a Terminator 800 model, but Stargates version of it. Fusion powered, trinium alloy frame, Houjin armor, built in plasma and particle weapons, non regeneration systems to effect some repairs.

No just no just no!!!

[Crazy Tom]

Tep! Calm yourself.

It already fits, the Altairans were the biggest example, bu there were others. The problem with the replicator backlash will be that there will be a very small number of people who dealt with it, so public opinion won't be as averse to them as you expect, in fact, given the benefits, and the world of difference between a mechanical synthetic and a replicator.
Besides, the military would have little to no say in the matter, most of the robotic innovation today is happening in private hands, the military can take advantage of it, but the main market would be civilian. You're all seeing visions of Skynet, but a likelier scenario is a horde of Roombas sweeping floors and cleaning toilets.

[thekillman]

my problem with robots is that the goauld's equivalent of a Nintendo 64 would beat all of earth's supercomputers, normal computers and smart phones linked together.


in essence, it takes minimal effort to build a robot that beats everyone in sheer processing capacity, the likes of Watson in a machine the size of your toaster. but then 1000x more powerful.


the second problem is the nature of the Human Mind in stargate. which is the reason i'm against major incorporation of neural interfaces. a single mind, if we are to believe Stargate, linked to a computer would beat the crap out of all firewalls in existence and those to come in the next 20 billion years.

the third problem i have with Robots is the fact that with SG technology, there's zero excuse for a slow transition, as we can just study Goauld tech and figure out how to make micro hyper-power actuators and build a robot that beats the crap out of a human physically. i know that Nanofibers are possible that can make a human that strong (it's part of the Nanosuit backstory from Crysis 2).

in reality, any real robot would not be that trong, and if they are they're bulky, heavy and relatively vulnerable. stargate technology removes any need for any transition. power is not a problem by far. computation is not a problem by far. a robot built with mediocre technology would kick the crap out of a well-equipped human.


i do not really mind "drone" type robots, in the sense of UAV's and MALP-esque stuff. i think that's the future of SG teams: launch a supportive UAV, let it map the surroundings and you check out interesting stuff. 10+ years of MALP technology and experience can be harnessed to make mobile base shields, mobile Railgun technology, etc. through a gate, we should be able to quickly build up a base with such mobile components, getting a shield up in no-time and railgun defences.


i do not mind the technology, i mind how easily it can become that uber. in reality, an android would be beaten by a human in hand-to-hand combat, outright thinking and whatnot. the only thing it would do better is sheer calculation.

for Stargate, that's very, very different. it's this that i mind.

Just because real world militaries are doing it doesnt mean we should be. In the stargate universe we are world building in the context that stargate has experience the rise and fall of the replicators, they would be extremely wary of any kind of technology that goes in that direction, especially with military applications.

true, i think the galaxy will have, as i game i recently played puts so nicely, "AI Phobia".

robots are a bit different, but i think it does not fit within a stargate context. replicators are vulnerable to projectiles and ARG's, but an advanced AI would make all our tech weapons against us.


i know that CON is a system i designed which operates on a "Dumb AI", in that it can recognise patterns, cross-references data automatically, pulls ship designs from it's servers and gives the Bridge quick info on where to hit it best. it displays a chance of success, and generally aids, but is not a true AI, just smart programming.


this was mostly made as a response to some ridiculous scenes where our teams are shooting down enemies with pure manual shooting.



i know that if i give Tom a finger, he'll take my entire arm, so i think in this case i'd say, "shelve it".

No just no just no!!!

a slight bit more constructive criticism:

a fusion powered robot would be such overkill i'm not even going to BEGIN to discuss it.

You're all seeing visions of Skynet, but a likelier scenario is a horde of Roombas sweeping floors and cleaning toilets.

you might. i see the automated lawn-mower type robots swooshing over the floor, and self-cleaning toilets. not the kind with robotic arms, the kind that sprays cleaning spray from built-in nozzles.



i doubt this semi-antropomorphical "revolution" will happen. i think this will rather go the "smartphone" way. IE, more intelligent versions of current devices. as in, everything + wifi and a chip.


i very sincerely doubt we'll soon talk to a synthesoid "james" who opens the door for you. i rather think of a JARVIS. you approach the garage in your car, you ask James to open the door and it opens. you step out of the car, and the coffee machine just finishes your cup as James asked you earlier wheter you wanted Coffee when you came home.

your TV flashes on. in stead of showing a canal, it shows an oversight. your preferred TV series is already downloaded and ready to play.

more intelligent machines. but i very much doubt actual robots. well aside from your robotic lawn mower and your cleaning robot swooshing over the floor.

[immhotep]

I agree with that completely. The problem is not the actual technology or even the valid scientific basis that they should have in Scifi, im not against robots in most contexts, but within stargate its very difficult to do without things becoming vastly out of control. Stargate gives the application of robots and advanced AI's to the brink of being a singularity, a valid one but one that we shouldnt touch without seriously thinking about it. The technology base of the universe makes a single tauri supercomputer with access to the stargate and our base computers a world of knowledge far beyond the majority of galaxy. A single malfunction and you do get skynet, but one that can opperate and infect on a galactic scale. A single computer virus took down the gate system, how quickly could a computer virus take out fleets of ships. Thor was able to override the entire computer systems of goauld motherships, how about a robot that got on board, linked up to the ship, maybe a friendly one, and turned off life support, shields, vented atmosphere. Could be done remotely. Then we introduce robotics to the materials of the gate verse, trinium, 100x stronger than steel, and naquadah able to provide vast power in small amounts, with no real downside. I just cant imagine how BAD things would get. Any race in stargate would be crushed by any application of military robotics or AI in to the fleet universe.
Im not saying the tech isnt viable, the problem is it is way too viable to even be used. As nothing we have in any form could contain it and we have seen that several times in the fleets. I agree with Killman that more advanced and intelligent systems based on those already present is the best thing, not a radical remodel of the foundations of our society. We put robots in the fleet, we might as well take everything else out and leave it there, that goes for new races, old races or tauri inventions. The only exception is the Jotnar, which are already there and established. As to the Altairens, chances are that those robots were leftover experiments from the Lantians who came back to the MW, and eventually created Reece and the replicators...

[Einherjar]

Karn ship tell me what you guys think

Spoiler:

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Spoiler:

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[Gormagon]

DOOOOOM!!!
DOOOOOM!!!

Doomsayers....

They are not Replicators. They would never be Replicators...They would have no Replication capability. That is not their purpose.

Their purpose is to serve as a powerful support unit for Samurai teams, no different from a tank. Its not like their would be tons of them ether, for now anyways. They would be able to communicate, but would not be hive minded or linked to something like Skynet. And they would be hurt by most standard energy weapons and advanced projectile weapons. Although....built in force shields. Personal shields, like an important Goa'uld. A Goa'uld probe had shields.

A Death glider cannot be beat by a Human in hand to hand combat, and it is a machine. Controlled by a person usually mind you, but still a machine. (They have auto pilot you know.)

A direct hit from a Gliders cannons or two from a staff cannon would probably do a Huojin battle bot in. (Unshielded.)

They are neither uber nor unviable. They are in fact, logical.

The Terminator-850 had two hydrogen fuel cells. A staff weapon has a liquid naquadah cell. What would power a battle bot?

And you said the Huojin needed spicing up!!! This is one of the things I had thought of.

(Karn ship looks fine b.t.w)

Nothing important.

Spoiler:

I gashed by chin today shaving. Skin was a bit dry, the razor got caught well I was going to fast with it. Bled like a son of a gun, stung quite unpleasantly when I cleaned it.

DO NOT READ THIS!

Spoiler:

I told you not to read this. So predictable.

[immhotep]

Its quite strange that I dont like Robots considering i love the Starwars drone armies. I just don think they fit with the SG universe. They might have worked for someone like the Navos but only because they were a race so close to the starwars style universe that stargate could produce. But i just dont think we could develop them in such detail and in enough control to stop us as writers and the universe from corrupting the whole robotics concept in to something that becomes uber.

[Gormagon]

Actually....they do not fit very well do they? And yes, Droid armies are cool. Not as good as clone troopers though.

But my Houjin are supposed to be somewhat unique and non generic. And I am not talking armies, just support units. (For now heh heh.)

I can control myself from corrupting the stuff and becoming uber.

I sat in Mcy D's today with some friends, among the all the smells of salt and grease, and did not buy a thing. (Yes I have money...) I got self control. It is so hard though, eating healthy.....TOFU!!!!!! Gag.....

[Crazy Tom]

*watches gleefully as the Tka Host flies completely under the radar*

Drone armies... ughh. That's a stupid concept, no offense, the whole point behind using robotics (Killman is right, the non-anthropomorphic ones, I should have clarrified that) would be that you don't need an army to accomplish a mission (talking in a military sense here).
And there are so many roles they an cover, like cargo carriers and support systems.

Unfortunately, the issue of "robots beat everybody else" is not so clear cut, how do you classify heavy industrial automation that boosts your production and economy. And it's frankly, the difference wouldn't been too dissimilar to that between first rate militaries like the US's and say... Qaddafi's.

I don't know about you guys, but you seem to be thinking in the exact wrong terms as to how these robots would be employed or what they can do. The really high end ones that can break through walls and bristle weapons would be expensive.

As to the AI argument, I have to say that the best reason for making home grown AI. If they're so powerful, then to ensure their safety, people would need to have a system of equivalent ability to fend them off. When the US got The Bomb, the Russians didn't just do nothing, they got their own.

edit: Gormagon, you also need to show that these robots aren't just T-800 copied with Stargate tech attached. Like Killman said: non anthropomerphic, designed for combat, integrated weapons, limited manipulators. Think of a dog with feet that turn to wheels and guns instead of a tail and head. Maybe two deploy-able grasping arms for fine manipulation.

[immhotep]

I don't know about you guys, but you seem to be thinking in the exact wrong terms as to how these robots would be employed or what they can do. The really high end ones that can break through walls and bristle weapons would be expensive.

Not when you take in to account stargate technology, with a beam based matter converter we recreated the replicators in seconds. We could mass produce or an AI that takes over, doesnt even have to be native, could mass produce these machines from base elements with virtually no cost whatsoever, besides energy which in SG is plentiful.

And btw before you say it, the machines wont care if you dont allow beam based matter converters, they do allow it because in this sandbox its viable, and we would be playing by those rules forevermore.

As to the AI argument, I have to say that the best reason for making home grown AI. If they're so powerful, then to ensure their safety, people would need to have a system of equivalent ability to fend them off. When the US got The Bomb, the Russians didn't just do nothing, they got their own.

This takes me back to my singularity argument, SG technology allows for any AI to access information, process, extrapolate and overcome virtually any technology we have yet witnessed and use it against us with no oversight and very little we could do to stop them. An AI with even remote connectivity with any of the established technology bases would rapidly advance beyond all human and alien means to adapting.

Any example we give where advanced AI is used as a solution to something important, such as say cargo transport, not only deprives humans of jobs and us taxes, but it also gives over a section of our power base to a technology that ultimately is corruptable in worse ways than any human. And that if copied gives a significant boost to our enemies or becomes an enemy in itself.

What would happen if we created an AI interface to our ships, or the SGC or Atlantis. Not just an interface but a program capable of interacting on the same level as a human beinb but with simultaneous control over all systems that we through it would be interfacing with. Just giving an AI that kind of power is insane. The Russian and nuclear bomb situation is nowhere near the same. A better comparison would be to give North Korea Dakara and match it up to WWI level technology. If you give an AI the same tech base as we have today, or have in stargate, Moores law alone dictates that it will be twice as advanced in 18 months. Could humans, or the fleetverse even hope to compare with that level of advancement? NO. The moment AI gets control we are screwed. Nothing we can do about it.

[Gormagon]

Well, I can think of some customization's right now, and there will be more then one type of battle robot.

The basic humanoid model.
Developed by Yokuzaki armaments.
It would look like a chrome colored Samurai in armor, and have all kinds of hidden devices in its armor. It would have both Katana's and other melee weaponry, trinium toxic dart launchers, built in particle weaponry and a plasma weapon similar to a staff. It would have arms and hands.

Houjin armor battle chassis, trinium reinforced polycarbide frame.

Other types to be added!!

[fugiman]

Alright how about we get some specs for these robots so we can see where everyone is coming from.

This way we can pick it apart or leave it be instead of arguing about all robotic related tech and AI systems.

[thekillman]

A single computer virus took down the gate system, how quickly could a computer virus take out fleets of ships.

the CON installed on practically everything we have in space would definitely make that easier. not necessarily a bad thing, the Cylons did it. but this would be far worse.

They would be able to communicate, but would not be hive minded or linked to something like Skynet.

technologically there's no real difference. also there's no need for anything hive-minded. all our computers already are, via internet. not in the truest sense, but Hackers infect computers with a virus to make them "slaves". those slave computers in turn can infect other computers.

A Death glider cannot be beat by a Human in hand to hand combat, and it is a machine.

that's not what i meant.

The Terminator-850 had two hydrogen fuel cells. A staff weapon has a liquid naquadah cell. What would power a battle bot?

what's to stop the Arata from using them as suicide bombers, scratch that, nukers. one robot penetrating the lines would blow itself up and take the entire enemy defence with it.


besides, i don't care what terminators are powered by. in Stargate, a far less overkill powersource would be a capacitor, especially since those things are much better in SG.

Its quite strange that I dont like Robots considering i love the Starwars drone armies.

it's quite logical. Starwars had a very specific type of robot, a Droid as they called it. they were slave-like, but also had no significant AI, and no significant advantage over humans aside from being mass-produced.

the same is not true for SG because here, such a robot with a Mark I stuffed in would blow the crap out of every person with superior weapons technology, superior aiming technology, superior reaction speeds and what not.

Unfortunately, the issue of "robots beat everybody else" is not so clear cut, how do you classify heavy industrial automation that boosts your production and economy.

gah i hate you for being right on that . something like a drone is fine. IE, UAV. i do not like anthropomorphic robots. i hated the HFR by the way. robots are cool, but they need to be very, very well defined. i myself once considered a robotic race, a TRUE robotic race but the problem i kind of encountered was the lack of anything to stop them from doing certain things.


Robots have superior memory and superior calculation power. Humans have one advantage that makes all the difference. our mind is designed to quickly handle and link data, label it and process it with an efficiency no computer can beat. plus the ability of creative thought.

take for instance Deep Blue versus the chess champion. Deep Blue calculated tens of thousands of possibilities per second. the chess champion not even one. the human mind requires less calculations to achieve the same, as we quickly see patterns, to the point where they aren't even there. (excellent example: conspiracy theorists)

in Stargate, this creative thought versus sheer calculation is immensely disrupted by the sheer calculation part of the robot. it has become far, far stronger than the human's ability to think creative. therefore, a robot programmed to do so would be able to predict every human move.

The really high end ones that can break through walls and bristle weapons would be expensive

yea but the Tka for example have no monetary system. remember my Infinity Factor talk?

As to the AI argument, I have to say that the best reason for making home grown AI. If they're so powerful, then to ensure their safety, people would need to have a system of equivalent ability to fend them off. When the US got The Bomb, the Russians didn't just do nothing, they got their own.

depends. but i consider the technology highly dangerous, especially in this "rebuilding phase". it too easily can go wrong. i'd definitely shelve this for the future.

Think of a dog with feet that turn to wheels and guns instead of a tail and head. Maybe two deploy-able grasping arms for fine manipulation.

XD

Not when you take in to account stargate technology, with a beam based matter converter we recreated the replicators in seconds. We could mass produce or an AI that takes over, doesnt even have to be native, could mass produce these machines from base elements with virtually no cost whatsoever, besides energy which in SG is plentiful.

well we did take out that matter tech. not that it's not canon, it's that we have no clue how to. since Carter never thought of it before, it's likely the asgard removed that feature from our versions of their beam tech, and since the Jotnar (who have organic bodies here BTW) took that, it's not our problem.

This takes me back to my singularity argument, SG technology allows for any AI to access information, process, extrapolate and overcome virtually any technology we have yet witnessed and use it against us with no oversight and very little we could do to stop them. An AI with even remote connectivity with any of the established technology bases would rapidly advance beyond all human and alien means to adapting.

true. it could go wrong very easily.

The basic humanoid model.
Developed by Yokuzaki armaments.
It would look like a chrome colored Samurai in armor, and have all kinds of hidden devices in its armor. It would have both Katana's and other melee weaponry, trinium toxic dart launchers, built in particle weaponry and a plasma weapon similar to a staff. It would have arms and hands.

.......
.......
.......

.......


seriously?

Alright how about we get some specs for these robots so we can see where everyone is coming from.

fine by me: UAV

not fine by me: anything with AI. basically anything that's not somehow connected somewhere to a human or equivalent. so completely self-guided with the ability to perform other tasks than blowing up at the right spot.