Gateworld Virtual Fleet 4.0 - Discussion thread

[Gormagon]

We are still working on it. We are adjusting the Houjin and such.

[thekillman]

They do have a comparatively small empire, good industry and a stable economy. They only have their homeworld, colonies in their home system, 4 main planets, 4 protectorate planets and a dozen other worlds. 21 planets, 24 moons and 3 asteroid bases. (All heavily fortified.)

you might consider it small, but the Goauld for example only rule the earth-like planets and just ignore the rest. same for Earth. same for the Jaffa. the Arata might have a smaller empire in terms of physical size, but the density of controlled planets is just as high. not to mention they'd be well-developed, well-established colonies as opposed to hundreds of worlds with a few thousand medieval humans each.

They have done most of their advancement of their own, the alien tech was only unlocked 50 years ago. Did I put that on the wiki? Ill have to check that. And besides Stargates/D.H.D's, they did not have access to significant sources of other alien tech until very recently.

but you do realize that such a hidden cache of tech would've been a huge risk for the "furlings" to leave behind as there was no guarantee it wouldn't be discovered by the Goauld.



the asgard left no hidden cache on their Protected Planets. they had a relatively simple puzzle system and a hologram emitter. plus the Asgard were actually alive and in the vicinity to monitor.

They do produce high quality vessels, and I am pretty sure they can send battle groups were the Tau'ri can only send a BC. And Koku is valued differently then Dollars. (I am gonna need help with that actually...real Japan switched to yen in the 1800's.)

money is money. if it costs the Arata 10 million dollars to make something (even if that's just 1 Koku to them), the same design would cost earth a billion dollars if not more (even if it's just 800 million euro)

And about the Goa'uld ships, I am sorry but I just do not agree. They would not have lasted as long as they did as a galactic power(About 10,500 years.) without a good production capacity, especially since they were blowing each other up for most of that time.

i don't even agree on that myself and i hate it, but so is our friend canon. just as i don't agree on phase devices and the ease at which Earth reverse engineers millions of years more advanced technology. there are entire R&D labs reverse engineering the technology of rival companies, and that's just our OWN tech.

(It really not that many when you consider, they had hundreds of worlds across a vast area of space.

if i remember the episodes correctly, their working population would've been, and this is an educated guess, in the millions at best. and that's the entire population of all worlds. it's CANON that the Goauld do not tolerate advanced societies. it's CANON that the goauld do not tolerate large human populations. and it's just as canon that they used those simple farmers to produce those ships.

and no matter how much i hate that, it's how it is. and how did you get to hundreds of ha'tak per LORD? i'd estimate some 600 Ha'tak TOTAL.

And, the Asgard could have sent 1-5 Beliskners to wipe out the Goa'uld millenia ago if they could not rebuild very fast.

uhm yes Thor regretted that they hadn't done this, but they never fully realized the threat of the Goa'uld. if i remember correctly this was in Revelations.

1 shot K0 on a standard Ha'tak for a Beliskner. Source? Tollan ion cannons could do it.

nah for the Tollan it was a 2-shot KO. however a single ship leaving Asgard space would likely have been a major loss of firepower during the Repliwar, as the Asgard rarely sent more than one, and the last hope of the asgard in "New Order" was protected by 6 O'neills.

The official one. The Ancient civilization has been around alot longer then 10 million years.

link?

uh yes when did i say they weren't. Destiny however was launched at their height, and since we know of no major war or setback other than the Plague, it must've been launched shortly before. as Matter of Time suggests the plague took a while to spread and kill, and they were capable of ascension but not perfectly, it's likely Destiny was launched a few, what, thousand years before the plague?

Atlantis left around the plague, and Dakara fired to End it. so Atlantis must've left before Dakara fired and thus must've left around the plague.


since Ayanna was there when Atlantis left and she was dated to be 7 million years old if i remember correctly, the plague was about 7 million years ago and Destiny thus launched between 10 and 7 million years ago, as 10 was the highest number Jackson gave in Rising as to when Atlantis left.

How could we predate 10million years? I thought scientists believed we have been evolving from apes for a million years.

uhm well i can't be very precise ont his one, but in essence our entire history exists of natural evolution and advancement, whereas Dakara suggests that there should be a major gap. thus our world was never hit by Dakara. thus all life on Earth predates Dakara. since the Ancients must've set this in motion millions of years ago (after all we're their second evolution), it's likely they ran multiple experiments synchronously to ensure success.

it's suggested the Galaxy was largely devoid of human life as the Goauld spread it, but since the Aschen have no mention of anything with the goauld, it's likely they are another natural but forced evolution of Ancient kind. remember that we only have the ATA gene because of the Atlanteans.

Evidence for the Tollan, rudimentary Ancient knowlage used to modify shields made Tollan ion cannons ineffective

my theory suggests that proper knowledge of shields would make this easy. it's that nobody expected them to have it. the Tollan hadn't prepared anything for the occasion, but when three O'neill class showed up to rescue Thor, Anubis backed off suggesting those ships were still effective.

Aschen, not advanced like the Ancients, or Asgard. You even said that in early posts, you said they were not on the Tollan level.

the Great Races are ungodly more advanced than any other race. besides, if you were to plot advancement versus time based upon the assumption of no competition, it'd be asymptotic along Advancement around the level of the ancients.

in simple terms, advanced tech is harder to advance. this increases and increases to the point where it becomes nigh-stagnant.

being pre-dakaran does not imply being Ancient level. in terms of Ancient history, pre-dakaran is to them what, like, post-medieval is to us. actually i think Industrial Age is better.

Ok, so what role in the fleet do you think we need for a "good guy" race?

i currently forsee no role. an option however would be to explore how a race with honor would react to, for example, earth. would they consider our asgard and goauld tech stolen, or gifted, or rightfully ours? in terms of culture, the Jaffa would actually be closest, so it's interesting to see how the Jaffa would react to a potential alliance with a quite powerful race, while the Arata would get easy access to tons of goauld tech.

it's potentially interesting to see how they'd react to the established galaxy as "newcomers". how they'd react to Heliopolis, or the Lucian alliance. would they instantly mix into the fight or rather hold back and try to find out who's the bad guy and who's the good guy?

We got plenty of villain's, the LA, Machai, (Good basis choice B.T.W) Aschen, Tka, Shrin'yar. For good we got what? Tau'ri,........ Asgard are rebuilding. Tollans, have they made an appearance yet? I thought we needed another good race. But I will try to think of another role for them....

Jaffa, Hebridans, tok'ra come to mind.


i would like to get away from the brand "villain". the Shrin'yar do not seem villanous to me. they're a race without a home, and i do not believe they have true malintent.


Machai are part of the LA. they're also not evil, in fact they're allied with the LA because the Lucian Alliance was the one to find them. thus they learned of the Galaxy from their perspective. it's not rooted into them however.

Edit-Actually, I have been thinking about it. The Goa'uld are kind of advanced. I think you may be right, not to use them as the low end of the scale. But we can use them for mid level comparisons. here are the building blocks of a tech scale.

the problem with the goauld for tech comparison is that it's flawed. the Goauld stole everything they deemed useful and invented practically nothing on their own. being parasitic, they only need to take an engineer of some advanced planet as their host to know what they know and be done with it. their genetic memory is the culmination of many of these kind of people, and while they have relatively advanced tech for war, their living standard is medieval. Earth tech level still assumes a normal, non-SG earth.




i'm not that big a fan of tech scales as SG features many races that are not self-advanced. even the Galarans reverse engineered goauld tech, notably brain washing tech to create their memory device.


also since the future is uncertain, "x hundred years ahead" only works for relatively close periods. the Machai are like, 200 years or so ahead of us. the Aschen, not sure. i think they fall outside it, with their beam pads, bio weapons and hovering technology.


furthermore, it's not tech but what you do with it. as you must've noticed in my quick design outlines, you can dump technological shortcomings on production. a ha'tak is an incredibly inefficient warship as it doubles as a fighter carrier and personell carrier. it is better classified as a Base Ship.


the Baseship i outlined would have a lower power/size ratio than a battlecruiser, because it has other systems filling it's hull. given their longer history in space, the Arata can easily design pure warships, pure support ships and pure maintenance ships.


the Stargate Network allows Earth to kind of cheat with this, as they can beam up any gate, use it to recieve supplies and beam it back down. the Arata would have no such luxury, so they require to either make stuff on the spot or they need to carry it their. as their hyperdrive technology would be inferior, the focus is immediately on "staying power". at the core, self-sufficient ships, and at the exterior ships designed for pure firepower. specialization and versatility used to it's most effective and efficient.


the Baseship can switch between production and war, but that's because it's an immense tactical asset. it's big, it's strong, it's damn expensive, but it's a token of faith and power and honor and you name it. it would be supplied by dozens of smaller mining ships and cargo haulers to get the correct resources. in fact, i'd add in special Monitor ships equipped with really sensitive and powerful sensors, which evade battle as the energy exchange would be devastating. still, they're an excellent use to detect the correct materials, send some versatile ships designed to quickly handle a wide range of problems along with a series of Miners and Haulers. keep the main fleet together. send out Monitor/Patrol hybrid ships to keep a perimeter defence. once the target is acquired and reached, the warfleet dispatches while the maintenance and support fleet stays behind.


if you have super hyperdrives, you have no excuse for such ships. but now you can say "their hyperdrives are crap so i require a full-blown assembly line" and put it in an it's justified.

[Gormagon]

you might consider it small, but the Goauld for example only rule the earth-like planets and just ignore the rest. same for Earth. same for the Jaffa. the Arata might have a smaller empire in terms of physical size, but the density of controlled planets is just as high. not to mention they'd be well-developed, well-established colonies as opposed to hundreds of worlds with a few thousand medieval humans each.




but you do realize that such a hidden cache of tech would've been a huge risk for the "furlings" to leave behind as there was no guarantee it wouldn't be discovered by the Goauld.



the asgard left no hidden cache on their Protected Planets. they had a relatively simple puzzle system and a hologram emitter. plus the Asgard were actually alive and in the vicinity to monitor.




money is money. if it costs the Arata 10 million dollars to make something (even if that's just 1 Koku to them), the same design would cost earth a billion dollars if not more (even if it's just 800 million euro)




i don't even agree on that myself and i hate it, but so is our friend canon. just as i don't agree on phase devices and the ease at which Earth reverse engineers millions of years more advanced technology. there are entire R&D labs reverse engineering the technology of rival companies, and that's just our OWN tech.



if i remember the episodes correctly, their working population would've been, and this is an educated guess, in the millions at best. and that's the entire population of all worlds. it's CANON that the Goauld do not tolerate advanced societies. it's CANON that the goauld do not tolerate large human populations. and it's just as canon that they used those simple farmers to produce those ships.

and no matter how much i hate that, it's how it is. and how did you get to hundreds of ha'tak per LORD? i'd estimate some 600 Ha'tak TOTAL.


uhm yes Thor regretted that they hadn't done this, but they never fully realized the threat of the Goa'uld. if i remember correctly this was in Revelations.




nah for the Tollan it was a 2-shot KO. however a single ship leaving Asgard space would likely have been a major loss of firepower during the Repliwar, as the Asgard rarely sent more than one, and the last hope of the asgard in "New Order" was protected by 6 O'neills.




link?

uh yes when did i say they weren't. Destiny however was launched at their height, and since we know of no major war or setback other than the Plague, it must've been launched shortly before. as Matter of Time suggests the plague took a while to spread and kill, and they were capable of ascension but not perfectly, it's likely Destiny was launched a few, what, thousand years before the plague?

Atlantis left around the plague, and Dakara fired to End it. so Atlantis must've left before Dakara fired and thus must've left around the plague.


since Ayanna was there when Atlantis left and she was dated to be 7 million years old if i remember correctly, the plague was about 7 million years ago and Destiny thus launched between 10 and 7 million years ago, as 10 was the highest number Jackson gave in Rising as to when Atlantis left.




uhm well i can't be very precise ont his one, but in essence our entire history exists of natural evolution and advancement, whereas Dakara suggests that there should be a major gap. thus our world was never hit by Dakara. thus all life on Earth predates Dakara. since the Ancients must've set this in motion millions of years ago (after all we're their second evolution), it's likely they ran multiple experiments synchronously to ensure success.

it's suggested the Galaxy was largely devoid of human life as the Goauld spread it, but since the Aschen have no mention of anything with the goauld, it's likely they are another natural but forced evolution of Ancient kind. remember that we only have the ATA gene because of the Atlanteans.





my theory suggests that proper knowledge of shields would make this easy. it's that nobody expected them to have it. the Tollan hadn't prepared anything for the occasion, but when three O'neill class showed up to rescue Thor, Anubis backed off suggesting those ships were still effective.





the Great Races are ungodly more advanced than any other race. besides, if you were to plot advancement versus time based upon the assumption of no competition, it'd be asymptotic along Advancement around the level of the ancients.

in simple terms, advanced tech is harder to advance. this increases and increases to the point where it becomes nigh-stagnant.

being pre-dakaran does not imply being Ancient level. in terms of Ancient history, pre-dakaran is to them what, like, post-medieval is to us. actually i think Industrial Age is better.


i currently forsee no role. an option however would be to explore how a race with honor would react to, for example, earth. would they consider our asgard and goauld tech stolen, or gifted, or rightfully ours? in terms of culture, the Jaffa would actually be closest, so it's interesting to see how the Jaffa would react to a potential alliance with a quite powerful race, while the Arata would get easy access to tons of goauld tech.

it's potentially interesting to see how they'd react to the established galaxy as "newcomers". how they'd react to Heliopolis, or the Lucian alliance. would they instantly mix into the fight or rather hold back and try to find out who's the bad guy and who's the good guy?


Jaffa, Hebridans, tok'ra come to mind.


i would like to get away from the brand "villain". the Shrin'yar do not seem villanous to me. they're a race without a home, and i do not believe they have true malintent.


Machai are part of the LA. they're also not evil, in fact they're allied with the LA because the Lucian Alliance was the one to find them. thus they learned of the Galaxy from their perspective. it's not rooted into them however.



the problem with the goauld for tech comparison is that it's flawed. the Goauld stole everything they deemed useful and invented practically nothing on their own. being parasitic, they only need to take an engineer of some advanced planet as their host to know what they know and be done with it. their genetic memory is the culmination of many of these kind of people, and while they have relatively advanced tech for war, their living standard is medieval. Earth tech level still assumes a normal, non-SG earth.




i'm not that big a fan of tech scales as SG features many races that are not self-advanced. even the Galarans reverse engineered goauld tech, notably brain washing tech to create their memory device.


also since the future is uncertain, "x hundred years ahead" only works for relatively close periods. the Machai are like, 200 years or so ahead of us. the Aschen, not sure. i think they fall outside it, with their beam pads, bio weapons and hovering technology.


furthermore, it's not tech but what you do with it. as you must've noticed in my quick design outlines, you can dump technological shortcomings on production. a ha'tak is an incredibly inefficient warship as it doubles as a fighter carrier and personell carrier. it is better classified as a Base Ship.


the Baseship i outlined would have a lower power/size ratio than a battlecruiser, because it has other systems filling it's hull. given their longer history in space, the Arata can easily design pure warships, pure support ships and pure maintenance ships.


the Stargate Network allows Earth to kind of cheat with this, as they can beam up any gate, use it to recieve supplies and beam it back down. the Arata would have no such luxury, so they require to either make stuff on the spot or they need to carry it their. as their hyperdrive technology would be inferior, the focus is immediately on "staying power". at the core, self-sufficient ships, and at the exterior ships designed for pure firepower. specialization and versatility used to it's most effective and efficient.


the Baseship can switch between production and war, but that's because it's an immense tactical asset. it's big, it's strong, it's damn expensive, but it's a token of faith and power and honor and you name it. it would be supplied by dozens of smaller mining ships and cargo haulers to get the correct resources. in fact, i'd add in special Monitor ships equipped with really sensitive and powerful sensors, which evade battle as the energy exchange would be devastating. still, they're an excellent use to detect the correct materials, send some versatile ships designed to quickly handle a wide range of problems along with a series of Miners and Haulers. keep the main fleet together. send out Monitor/Patrol hybrid ships to keep a perimeter defence. once the target is acquired and reached, the warfleet dispatches while the maintenance and support fleet stays behind.


if you have super hyperdrives, you have no excuse for such ships. but now you can say "their hyperdrives are crap so i require a full-blown assembly line" and put it in an it's justified.

I do not see not problem with that. The alien race chose a good section of space.

Nah. The Furlings/aliens made sure that the Goa'uld would not get their hands on it with special precautions.

As far as Goa'uld ships go, we could retcon the production rate. It is not too intergrated into the series, actually specifics are never mentioned. *Cough* 1000 Ha'tak *cough* Wew. Dusty in here.

Ok, I accept that money is money.

Sources
http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Ancients
http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Seed_ship
http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Beta_gate

Mhm k...not my speciality exactly. But I will give it a try.

"No! Not try! There is only do, or do not. There is no try."

Jaffa-kinda stupid, meaning superstitious and backward. And they are not very united. They can be useful as ground pounders.

Tok'ra-Practically dead. No good for direct combat. Good infiltrators, but primarily with infiltrating Goa'uld, being Goa'uld themselves. I see issues arising with them infiltrating other cultures, I.E Tka. somewhat advanced, but like I said, few are left.

Hebridans-Not sure. Probably will be good allies. But it is unknown even if they have hyperdrives, or how powerful their military is.

Houjin are stable, fairly advanced, and good for both direct combat and in some cases infiltration with the secret Ninja class soldier.

Yeah but I remember reading somewhere that the Goa'uld, at least militarily are 500 years ahead of us. And it wont be perfect but it is just a general scale.

And I can agree with the ship design stuff.

[thekillman]

I do not see not problem with that. The alien race chose a good section of space.

does that matter? all they need is a single goauld ship going there by accident and it's done. they can't predict every move of the goauld for 2000 years. besides, the Tok'ra had multiple bases and stayed on the move, so indirectly they could cause it.

Ok, I accept that money is money.

it's a matter of equivalency. regardless if it costs the Arata 10 or 5000 *insert random currency*, if it's the equivalent of 1 million dollars, it's the equivalent of 1 million dollars.

Sources

wikia? *blergh*. they use every source of stargate info, including a whole lot of RPG info which was never considered canon by anyone.

Jaffa-kinda stupid, meaning superstitious and backward. And they are not very united. They can be useful as ground pounders.

actually that's a common misconception. they're not stupid. they're unschooled. there's a world of difference. superstitious is also a misconception as Teal'c isn't, and in fact that whole deal was kind of removed over the series.


they're united in multiple nations, far more united than the FJN ever was.

[Gormagon]

does that matter? all they need is a single goauld ship going there by accident and it's done. they can't predict every move of the goauld for 2000 years. besides, the Tok'ra had multiple bases and stayed on the move, so indirectly they could cause it.




it's a matter of equivalency. regardless if it costs the Arata 10 or 5000 *insert random currency*, if it's the equivalent of 1 million dollars, it's the equivalent of 1 million dollars.




wikia? *blergh*. they use every source of stargate info, including a whole lot of RPG info which was never considered canon by anyone.



actually that's a common misconception. they're not stupid. they're unschooled. there's a world of difference. superstitious is also a misconception as Teal'c isn't, and in fact that whole deal was kind of removed over the series.


they're united in multiple nations, far more united than the FJN ever was.

They were away from the fringes of Goa'uld space.
They blasted Goa'uld ships out of the sky.
The Goa'uld were busy among themselves.
The Goa'uld never tried to establish a presence there.
They were lucky.


Yeah that is what I meant.


*Cough.* Hmmm.


I should have said ignorant. They still are unlikely to make any kind of significant improvements to the tech they already have, or be able to help with other technology. The Tok'ra and Houjin will/could. but Tok'ra resources are rather limited.

Hebridans? We need more info.

[StargateWatcher]

They were away from the fringes of Goa'uld space.
They blasted Goa'uld ships out of the sky.
The Goa'uld were busy among themselves.
The Goa'uld never tried to establish a presence there.
They were lucky.


Yeah that is what I meant.


*Cough.* Hmmm.


I should have said ignorant. They still are unlikely to make any kind of significant improvements to the tech they already have, or be able to help with other technology. The Tok'ra and Houjin will/could. but Tok'ra resources are rather limited.

Hebridans? We need more info.

Take it that the Houjin will ally w/ Earth in the near-future? Can't recall the Houjins' GATO status.

[Gormagon]

Take it that the Houjin will ally w/ Earth in the near-future? Can't recall the Houjins' GATO status.

I would think so. But they are not official yet. You can vote for them to be accepted if you like.

GOA'ULD
I have done some Ha'tak math. (Sounds like a drug.)

I have counted the big fleets seen in SG-1 by pausing the episodes, and I went to Stargate wiki to get a rough head count of how many Ha'tak have been seen in the series. So, it comes out to around 200 Ha'tak class vessels that are actually seen. Some will argue that it was mentioned that the system lords could send an attack a hundred times more powerful then Apohises attack, a hundred to two hundred mother ships, to Earth, and that would be all the ships they had. Unlikely. They would not leave territory undefended like that. So we can assume their are alot more. (Plus minor Goa'uld.)

Now we need to take into account all the ships that were not seen. The vast areas of space that had to be patrolled and protected from other Goa'ulds meant lots of ships. Below are my best estimates. Keep in mind that they rarely united. It was more like a bunch of small, separate empires.

System Lords-12-24 system lords. The most powerful Goa'ulds in the galaxy. Each controlling large territories. 1-4 Ha'tak in each solar system, plus forward lines. Plus losing ships. 50-100 Ha'tak each is not unreasonable in the least. So, between 1200-2000 Ha'tak vessels, divided between different Lords.


Minor "powerful" Goa'uld, which included the Linvris. In order to do this, we must know how many minor Goa'uld there were. I would say 300. Think about it. Not unreasonable. Only 25 Goa'uld to a system lord at the most, 12 if there are 25 system Lords. Each with a few solar systems. Add in fighting. 1-10 Ha'tak each I would say. Meaning a minimum of 1000 Ha'tak class vessels.

Lucian alliance-Not really relevant because they stole, but lets say 50.

So with this math, Roughly 2550 Ha'tak.

We could even cut it in half for the na sayers, 1275. But I see no real reason too.

ORI
Six ships were being built on Vereska or wherever it was. Fact.

The Ori most likely had thousands of populated worlds. They controlled a GALAXY. Even if just a hundred had the capacity to build six ships, which is more then possible, that would mean 600 powerful warships being churned out. Minimum.

WRAITH
I have put this info in another post before.
The Ancients would have had at least a hundred Auora class ships in my opinion. If they were severely outnumbered then I would say that meant 20 Hives to one Auora. So, low estimates say 2000 Hive ships. Then they could have used some of the energy from the Z-PM's to grow more ships.

[thekillman]

i severely doubt your numbers. first off, the Goauld never displayed any kind of advanced production systems.

and did you even see the Ori methods? i know, the writers are morons in that respect, but i heavily doubt the Ori had so many ships.

[Gormagon]

They had to have some though. I would bet my..no. I would bet my brothers left arm that they had big shipyards and things. They were never shown because they were unimportant to the story. And because they were never shown, we can add them in. IM GENIUS!!!

And the writers are/were morons in many cases....but the Ori had ascended knowledge. Yes I saw the Ori methods. Primitive. But the load would have been spread out. Priors could help ALOT.

[immhotep]

I dont doubt those numbers atall, in fact they are pretty reasonable. Especially the Hatak figures. Just going on the Reckoning Tokra mapping system there were many thousands of dots on the screen, we learnt that not all of them were Hataks, there was a couple of alkesh tags in one scene. So even if we put 10% of those tagged by the tokra as actual hataks that would easily be several thousand Hataks in the galaxy.

As to Goauld production methods, we know they had very advanced production methods, best examples are Thors Hammer and Orpheus, which they a attack a mid production ship and we get to see a real example of them building a hatak. We also saw glimpses of this from Sokar and Anubis. Of advanced heavy engineering, naqaudah refinery and construction methods.

As to the Ori, I think 600 may be overdoing it. But we know there were at least 9 produced, the 4 initial ones, then the 5 additional ships. We also saw 6-10 during the AoT. I would say that their total production could be massive. But more likely the individual planets selected as construction sites would have needed to advanced technologically and therefore may have questioned the Orii in that process to a degree. In which case they would have lost those planets worship, the anti-ori underground started on the planet they selected as their first production site..

Also we mustnt forget that the Ori not only have the new human evolution but their own preascended civilization to draw upon in terms of production and technology, which may have equalled the Ancients to some extent. I they dont follow the rules, all of that technology and military power could have been suspended ready for use in the future and in defeating surrounding galaxies while the Orii gained power on high.

In terms of the wraith, I think 2000 is way too many. Todd for example was a very powerful wraith and even he could only muster a dozen ships, the high queen had 50 at her command and I would struggle to see that the wraith could have more than a few hundred ships. We know they cloned millions of wraith, and that numbers played the key. But not specifically numbers of ships. I dont think the Lantians had thousands of ships though, but that each ship was significantly more powerful. I would put it at maybe 5/1 hives/auroras. Which by that scale would put all the hives ever produced at maybe 500. I think that would be reasonable. But that only say 200 are around or have been grown since the war. I mean the wraith did sleep for much of this period, the hives they had all needed to be dug up and launched etc. So many might still be part of the woodlands so to speak.

[Gormagon]

I dont doubt those numbers atall, in fact they are pretty reasonable. Especially the Hatak figures. Just going on the Reckoning Tokra mapping system there were many thousands of dots on the screen, we learnt that not all of them were Hataks, there was a couple of alkesh tags in one scene. So even if we put 10% of those tagged by the tokra as actual hataks that would easily be several thousand Hataks in the galaxy.

As to Goauld production methods, we know they had very advanced production methods, best examples are Thors Hammer and Orpheus, which they a attack a mid production ship and we get to see a real example of them building a hatak. We also saw glimpses of this from Sokar and Anubis. Of advanced heavy engineering, naqaudah refinery and construction methods.

As to the Ori, I think 600 may be overdoing it. But we know there were at least 9 produced, the 4 initial ones, then the 5 additional ships. We also saw 6-10 during the AoT. I would say that their total production could be massive. But more likely the individual planets selected as construction sites would have needed to advanced technologically and therefore may have questioned the Orii in that process to a degree. In which case they would have lost those planets worship, the anti-ori underground started on the planet they selected as their first production site..

Also we mustnt forget that the Ori not only have the new human evolution but their own preascended civilization to draw upon in terms of production and technology, which may have equalled the Ancients to some extent. I they dont follow the rules, all of that technology and military power could have been suspended ready for use in the future and in defeating surrounding galaxies while the Orii gained power on high.

In terms of the wraith, I think 2000 is way too many. Todd for example was a very powerful wraith and even he could only muster a dozen ships, the high queen had 50 at her command and I would struggle to see that the wraith could have more than a few hundred ships. We know they cloned millions of wraith, and that numbers played the key. But not specifically numbers of ships. I dont think the Lantians had thousands of ships though, but that each ship was significantly more powerful. I would put it at maybe 5/1 hives/auroras. Which by that scale would put all the hives ever produced at maybe 500. I think that would be reasonable. But that only say 200 are around or have been grown since the war. I mean the wraith did sleep for much of this period, the hives they had all needed to be dug up and launched etc. So many might still be part of the woodlands so to speak.

Yeah, I have thought about this ALOT. The Ha'tak's are what I have done the most work with, I will think about the others a bit more.

ORI

600 may be overdoing it....eventually they could have gotten that powerful though.

It could even be cut down to 300 though. Or even 150, and it would still be devastating. More then what they would need to conquer the MW.

Hey, I know the Ori are dead in GWF and the show, but what about whole ark of truth thing on GWF? Are we doing anything with the followers? What about all the ships that could be sitting in the Ori galaxy?

WRAITH

As far as Wraith ships go, this was the enemy that defeated the Ancients. They defeated them through sheer numbers. But in order to help know how many Hives there were we would need to know how many Ancient ships there were. I think that their would be at least 10-15 Hive ships to an Auora. Think of how fast Drones could shred a Hive, plus Lantian pulse weapons. And I always figured the Auora had beam weapons, like the Satellite.

Side matter-"Cheap..... there are supposed to be 3 malted milk balls in the little package, and there were only 2 in one."

[Crazy Tom]

I concur with Killman on the spirit of his criticisms, the Hojun seem generically bland.

I will however disagree on his analysis of warship types. It makes hips too specialized and depends on ideal conditions too much. The Baseship for example is a huge weakness, even if it's defended, a single hit can knock out production for weeks or severally compromise the ability to support it's battle group.
I think that given the amount of automation (which does not equal vulnerability to ECM/EW, as those systems can be separated from any external communication.), it's perfectly possible to have ships carry on board aeroponic greenhouses, spare exotic parts and common feedstock and micro-manufactory.

I'm going to borrow from Atomic Rocket and say a battlegroup should be modeled after an army force:
First, you have your small, hyper capable scouts, just basic robotic probes, which report to the rest of the fleet.
Then you have your cruisers, designed for independent patrol, these deter small scale incursions, piracy, etc. They are the workhorses, essentially identical to the HAS Killman suggested except they're long endurance, with limited on board manufacturing (see three dimensional printing for an idea of what that would be like), closed environmental life support(CELS), and marines for inspection duty and misc tasks.

When working offensively, you have your carriers, they have powerful long endurance, high speed hyperdrives, sophisticated factories and larger CELS. These are meant to stay away from a giht, and while they have shields, they're only medium endurance, meant to keep them hyper jumping whenever they're found. However, these ships aren't fleet support, they just take care of their Gunboats.

Gunboats are a HAS basically. These are just short range (sprint) hyper capable with heavy front armor and lots of weapons fed by capacitors. A cross between a fighter and a battleship, as oxymoronic as that sounds. The only crew they have is the command crew.

You can add all sorts of cool wrinkles into this system: maybe capital ship[s can replenish a gunboat's power supply by beaming power to them, or they use drones to accompany manned ships. You also have to consider that they will need supply ships when fighting in large units for the same reasons modern navies need them.

[Gormagon]

Bland!!!bland!!! Really?

I have been adding things to the article...and they are still under construction.

That is how I normally build my fleets actually. A well balanced mixture of units.
Fighter interceptor
Fighter bomber
Scout
Gun boat
Cruiser
Battle cruiser
Dreadnought
Mother ship

Here are the ships I came up with from months ago. I just copy/pasted it, so there are technologies and stuff on them that will not actually be in the fleet. This is just to give you an overview. I do not feel like changing everything in the text below...
Arata ships.

Hebi(serpent) class fighter.
Type: Space intercepter and defense fighter.
Crew: 0-2

Shields: Magnetic deflector grid.

Hull: Trinium/crystal hull.

Weapons: 1-4 fighter sized fusion lasers or Neutron cannons.

Powerplant: Three small fusion cells.(h.w) or one small fusion cell(h.l.n)

Sublight: Main: Tiny anti matter drive pod,limited fuel. Auxillery: Gravitic fins.

Hyperdrive: -

Other: Sensor scattering field.

Production run: Thousands.

Sabei class vessle.
Type: Mid range survey ship
Crew: 40-60. troops: 35.

Shields: Deflector grid. Capible of absorbing thousands of megatons.

Hull: Trinium/crystal hull.

Weapons: Two mark one fusion lasers. One mark one neutron cannon.

Secandary space craft: Four Hebi(serpent) class fighters.

Powerplant: One small fusion reactor.(h.l.n) four small fusion cells.(h.w)

Sublight: Main: Anti matter drive pods. Auxillery: Gravitic fins.

Hyperdrive: Interstellar.

Other: Sensor scattering field. Matter transport platform.

Production run: 40 per year.

Tousa class vessle.
Type: Deep space exploration ship.
Crew: 100-180. troops: 100

Shields: Deflector grid. Capible of absorbing tens of thousands of megatons.

Hull: Trinium/crystal hull. Arata yoroi(new armor)

Weapons: Four mark two fusion lasers. Three mark two Neutron cannons. One ya(missle) launcher.

Secandary space craft: twelve Hebi class fighters.

Power plant: Medium fusion reactor.(h.l.n) six medium fusion cells.(h.w)

Sublight: Main: Anti matter drive pods. Auxillery: Gravitic fins.

Hyperdrive: Interstellar. Will be outfitted with an intergalactic.

Other: Sensor scattering field. Matter transport platforms.

Production run: 10 per year.

Yaiba class vessle.
Type: Combat ship.
Crew: 300-500. Troops: 1500+

Shields: Heavy deflector grid. Capible of absorbing a few hundred gigatons.

Hull: Trinium/crystal hull. Arata yoroi(new armor)

Weapons: Six mark two fusion lasers. Four mark two Neutron cannons. Three mark three Neutron cannons. One heavy bombard Neutron cannon. Four ya(missle)launchers.

Secandary space craft: Fourty Hebi class fighters.

Powerplant: Two large fusion reactors.(h.l.n) ten small fusion reactors.(h.l.n)

Sublight: Main: Anti matter drive pods. Auxillery: Gravitic fins.

Hyperdrive: Fast interstellar.

Other: Sensor scattering field. Matter transport platforms.

Production run: 21 per year.

Sugoi yaiba class vessle.
Type: Heavy combat ship.
Crew: 400-600. Troops: 2500+

Shields: Heavy deflector grid. Capible of absorbing a few hundred gigatons.

Hull: Trinium/crystal hull. Arata yoroi(new armor)

Weapons: Eight mark two Neutron cannons. Four mark three Neutron cannons. Two heavy bombard Neutron cannons. nine ya(missle)launchers.

Secandary space craft: Fifty Hebi class fighters.

Powerplant: Three large fusion reactors.(h.l.n)or one large Matter antimatter reactor. Ten small fusion reactors.(h.l.n)

Sublight: Main: Anti matter drive pods. Auxillery: Gravitic fins.

Hyperdrive: Fast interstellar. Experimental interglactic drive.

Other: Sensor scattering field. Heavy duty matter transport platforms.

Production run: 8 per year.


How about I just use everyone's ideas? Heh. But then my race would be uber....

Any suggestions on how to make them less "bland?" Add salt?

[Crazy Tom]

Gormagnon, I'll be blunt. There's a reason this forum is in the sci-tech section of the website. The ships you give above are nothing but a collection of sci-fi cliches pasted onto traditional wet navy terminology.

In so few words: it's a load of ********. No offense intended. A huge part of the fleets is world building, and that extends to the doctrinal, industrial and technological fields. Basically, you need to give us a good reason you need all those roles.
Also, you need to provide more detail, what's this neutron cannon, what do gravitic fins do (they're a B% technology, in SG inertia-less drives are quite mundane looking), etc.

Look at the Hidden Empire, check out the Voidfleet, when you submit a ship, you need more than a basic list of specs, you need to show at least a bit of how those specs work and what the ship's role is in general.

edit: Huh, B*llocks is automatically edited out...

[Gormagon]

Gormagnon, I'll be blunt. There's a reason this forum is in the sci-tech section of the website. The ships you give above are nothing but a collection of sci-fi cliches pasted onto traditional wet navy terminology.

In so few words: it's a load of ********. No offense intended. A huge part of the fleets is world building, and that extends to the doctrinal, industrial and technological fields. Basically, you need to give us a good reason you need all those roles.
Also, you need to provide more detail, what's this neutron cannon, what do gravitic fins do (they're a B% technology, in SG inertia-less drives are quite mundane looking), etc.

Look at the Hidden Empire, check out the Voidfleet, when you submit a ship, you need more than a basic list of specs, you need to show at least a bit of how those specs work and what the ship's role is in general.

edit: Huh, B*llocks is automatically edited out...

It is a English swear.

I know, but did I not specify that most of the technologies present are outdated and will not be used in the fleet? I did not feel like editing it, it was just copied and pasted. And it is just a overview of something that I wrote in one sitting with no for thought.

Besides, there is a reason those naval terms exist, THEY WORK. And the Houjin are still under CONSTRUCTION.

And I am/will be explaining the technologies used by them.


I have read parts of the hidden empire article.