Gateworld Virtual Fleet 4.0 - Discussion thread

[Gormagon]

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it's more like "dictating the state of the universe"

wanting to advance can be a dangerous thing. for example, moral and ethics would be very low. there would be a constant atmosphere of "for science". they'd do unpredictable things if they though it would be beneficial. which is also why i doubt they'd just ally with one side.



just ignore that.

Perhaps "obsessed" is a bad term, but it is the main drive of a Houjins life. They have an honor code, similar to Bushido. As far as morals, depends on what you mean. Their honor code would prevent them from taking certain actions.
Oh, the KK would have minimal honor, and would be very dangerous.

Ok, but how advanced are the Aschen at least? How far ahead of the Tau'ri? I am curious.

[thekillman]

That was the U.S and Russia, was Japan involved in the cold war?

has nothing to do with it.

contradictio in terminis? How so?

you state how they can't be less advanced and then simply state ways to make them less advanced.


there's no need for a tech cache. i doubt it has any use anyway. why not make it a true hall of thor's might, and simply have a message left behind by the furlings which tells them the truth about their origins etc.

And about the phase devices, entire civilizations can already be wiped out. Think about it, one huge super nuke with armor and shielding, and its multi gigaton yield wipes out all life on the planet.

there is still a chance it can be prevented. even if there was a civilization which could beam in black holes, they'd have no chance against Phase tech. it's simply too uber, no matter how much you soften it. not to mention phase nukes insta-killing ships. i am against the previous fleet's methods of "more powerful shields" and i have put things in place to prevent that and steer the fleet in a different direction. but Phase tech would make both shields and armor moot.

There will always be the danger off a weapon that you will fail to defend against.

there's a difference between something you can't defeat and something you can't see nor harm. a gun shooting entire stars would still be useless against phasetech, a gun shooting ZPM's at the rate of a gatling gun would be useless. against cloaks and shields not. Cloaks can be defeated. Phasing simply can not.

Their honor code would prevent them from taking certain actions.

there's too much contradiction and vagueness. care to give some examples?

[Gormagon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido . Here is an article about Bushido.
They would not "stab an ally in the back", they would not make deals to work with both sides of a conflict, they have laws against genocide, and although they have conducted sneak attacks against enemies before, like Japan did at pearl harbor, it is considered very dishonorable.

I understand your view of phase technology. It is very powerful, but their are ways to defend against phase tech. You could protect an entire planet or a solar systems star, with cross phasic shielding, sensors, weaponry. Trans phase/inter/multi phase... . Similar to the transphasic eradication rod, adjust the phase frequency. It would be difficult, but possible.

Besides the fact that it is already so prevalent in the SG universe, whats done is done. It was used too much to cover it over, unlike, say, the Zat's disintegration factor.

And about the contradictions, they are still a work in progress.

[thekillman]

Here is an article about Bushido.

but that has nothing to do with the "want to advance " aspect

It would be difficult, but possible.

the only thing to defend from phasing is phasing. and then you need to match the phasing to actually harm the other phased object. and unless you can phase entire star systems, you still are extraordinarily vulnerable.

Besides the fact that it is already so prevalent in the SG universe, whats done is done. It was used too much to cover it over, unlike, say, the Zat's disintegration factor.

if the writers can retcon, why can't we?

[Gormagon]

but that has nothing to do with the "want to advance " aspect




the only thing to defend from phasing is phasing. and then you need to match the phasing to actually harm the other phased object. and unless you can phase entire star systems, you still are extraordinarily vulnerable.



if the writers can retcon, why can't we?

Their culture is complicated, a combination of Japanese, alien race, and their own that developed over time. Like I said, they are still under construction in some areas.

Because phase devices are used in way to many episodes. Taking them out would change so much history, especially with the Tollan, majorly with the Ori, and a little bit with the ancients. Edit: Also, the Reetou, and the Sodan.

And you could phase an entire star system, using subspace phase wave technology.

Me and my best friend have so much uber tech its not even funny. We gave up on one of our universes because both sides could have destroyed all of reality. I figured out how to beat the Swarm b.t.w.

Perhaps we should call for a vote on phase technology.

Edit-What is the melting/boiling point of trinium and naquadah? I dont think triniums melting point would be 100x that of carbon steel, that would be like, 200k degrees F.

[Crazy Tom]

Killman, that has to be the mos thorough well thought out piece of Wild Mass Guessing I've ever seen, my hat's off to you, if I could I'd green you.

I was reading an article yesterday on orionssarm.com that a forum user helpfully linked and it explained why magnetic cooling is needed for some types or particle weapons. My scientifically-layperson's knowledge didn't cause me to consider that before. A lot of engineering really goes into creating practical weapons of the type, eh?

You have no idea...

As to phase tech, I think we have to keep it. It's been shown to many times to be retconned. having said that, it's almost always been at the hands of some very advanced people, the Sodan are the only outliers. With the Ancients and the Tollan we can say that their understanding of the Kiron has let them actually harness the wave/particle duality of it to render object intangible as well as invisible. I'm positive there's a way for us to handwave that in.

My advice as to the Houjin, my advice: look through the Orion's Arm encyclopedia page on Weapons and Warfare, get some inspiration. Me and Exathalion have both made very interesting races by doing little more than using old SG tech in novel ways.
I'll give you an example: Tka defenses. Multi-layer semi-permeable Whipple shields, cold dense plasma sandwiched between said Whipple shields, dynamically suspended diamond grain armor, radiation and shock resistant unmanned interiors. Nothing there requires anything significantly out of the norm like phasing, but taken together, added on top of the dynamic architecture of the 'ships', Tka ships are night impossible to damage, well, nigh impossible to most races at this stage.

PS. Killman, could you post that explanation of the Kiron stuff on the wiki? I need to reworks some of my designs I think in light of this new understanding.

[Gormagon]

Killman, that has to be the mos thorough well thought out piece of Wild Mass Guessing I've ever seen, my hat's off to you, if I could I'd green you.


As to phase tech, I think we have to keep it. It's been shown to many times to be retconned. having said that, it's almost always been at the hands of some very advanced people, the Sodan are the only outliers. With the Ancients and the Tollan we can say that their understanding of the Kiron has let them actually harness the wave/particle duality of it to render object intangible as well as invisible. I'm positive there's a way for us to handwave that in.

My advice as to the Houjin, my advice: look through the Orion's Arm encyclopedia page on Weapons and Warfare, get some inspiration. Me and Exathalion have both made very interesting races by doing little more than using old SG tech in novel ways.
I'll give you an example: Tka defenses. Multi-layer semi-permeable Whipple shields, cold dense plasma sandwiched between said Whipple shields, dynamically suspended diamond grain armor, radiation and shock resistant unmanned interiors. Nothing there requires anything significantly out of the norm like phasing, but taken together, added on top of the dynamic architecture of the 'ships', Tka ships are night impossible to damage, well, nigh impossible to most races at this stage.

PS. Killman, could you post that explanation of the Kiron stuff on the wiki? I need to reworks some of my designs I think in light of this new understanding.

I agree, it was some of the best tech info I have ever read Killman. It should be put on the wiki in a neater article form.

And thank you, phase devices are just too inter woven into Stargate to get rid of them.

Ok, ill peruse O.R.E.G. Thank you.

Lucious Luven- "I peruse."

How many ranks are there on this forum thing, and how many posts in between promotion?

[thekillman]

Killman, that has to be the mos thorough well thought out piece of Wild Mass Guessing I've ever seen, my hat's off to you, if I could I'd green you.

thank you, but i have no clue why.

Like I said, they are still under construction in some areas.

it's seems to be a big part of what they are, yet you have very little knowledge on that.

alien ship, capture or destroy? it affects not just tactics and strategies but also ship classes and weapon types.

planetary capture: leave it intact, "ally" them, exterminate, cattle them, etc.

it's the same with many, many things. what is their most likely response?

, I think we have to keep it. It's been shown to many times to be retconned

we can still use a continuity ignore.

What is the melting/boiling point of trinium and naquadah? I dont think triniums melting point would be 100x that of carbon steel, that would be like, 200k degrees F.

pretty darn high, i'd say some 4000 degrees celsius. which is why you'd NEED shield-based casting. steel is pretty darn hard to cast. with shield-based casting, that's no problem.

Killman, could you post that explanation of the Kiron stuff on the wiki? I need to reworks some of my designs I think in light of this new understanding.

fine by me.

i use it as a guideline for new tech and for explaining old tech. did you know that the entire engineering aspect of technology actually never has been, well, shown? it's always just "scientists scientists".

i'm perhaps more old-fashioned, but there are so many things to be done and to be explained before we even go beyond the realm of regular tech.

Tka defenses.

they give me a headache.

How many ranks are there on this forum thing, and how many posts in between promotion?

no clue, but i have 15000+ posts and since it appears to follow Air Force ranks, i believe i have a few more to go. and i post like 5x per day.

And you could phase an entire star system, using subspace phase wave technology.

shall we please not go there?

Stargate's main weakness is numbers. there are so many levels of tech unexplored. hell we could dedicate an entire fleet to Nanotech, one to Biotech, one to god knows what. pretty much anything Tom cooks up.

Lucious Luven- "I peruse."

while i normally do not really like complex backstories before even 1 story is written, you do need to better explain things about your race. i would like more -what i call- "digital data". what it means is, it's how you THINK stuff happened without actually making it solid. it is great to maintain continuity and it is great to create an immensely complex race without needing an immensely complex backstory.

so like i said, how do they think. you can't say they basically have advancement programmed into them (it's not a human treat. it's a combo of many things, including curiosity and lazyness). their philosophy would be to conquer through advancement, but it can be a massive achilles heel.

for example i played this game (Space Empires V), and my research went so fast, by the time my uberpowerful Baseships reached the enemy, they were obsolete.


with advancement comes cost as well. billions go into research, billions that can be spent on physical material. additionally, you need "update" costs. the pace needs to be kept not just by technology, but also by it's implementation.

furthermore there appears to be a strange cycle i've observed. after a period of significant (and sometimes negative) change, people have a strong desire to become traditionalistic. yet the transition back doesn't go that fast.

[Gormagon]

thank you, but i have no clue why.



it's seems to be a big part of what they are, yet you have very little knowledge on that.

alien ship, capture or destroy? it affects not just tactics and strategies but also ship classes and weapon types.

planetary capture: leave it intact, "ally" them, exterminate, cattle them, etc.

it's the same with many, many things. what is their most likely response?




we can still use a continuity ignore.




pretty darn high, i'd say some 4000 degrees celsius. which is why you'd NEED shield-based casting. steel is pretty darn hard to cast. with shield-based casting, that's no problem.




fine by me.

i use it as a guideline for new tech and for explaining old tech. did you know that the entire engineering aspect of technology actually never has been, well, shown? it's always just "scientists scientists".

i'm perhaps more old-fashioned, but there are so many things to be done and to be explained before we even go beyond the realm of regular tech.




they give me a headache.




no clue, but i have 15000+ posts and since it appears to follow Air Force ranks, i believe i have a few more to go. and i post like 5x per day.




shall we please not go there?

Stargate's main weakness is numbers. there are so many levels of tech unexplored. hell we could dedicate an entire fleet to Nanotech, one to Biotech, one to god knows what. pretty much anything Tom cooks up.




while i normally do not really like complex backstories before even 1 story is written, you do need to better explain things about your race. i would like more -what i call- "digital data". what it means is, it's how you THINK stuff happened without actually making it solid. it is great to maintain continuity and it is great to create an immensely complex race without needing an immensely complex backstory.

so like i said, how do they think. you can't say they basically have advancement programmed into them (it's not a human treat. it's a combo of many things, including curiosity and lazyness). their philosophy would be to conquer through advancement, but it can be a massive achilles heel.

for example i played this game (Space Empires V), and my research went so fast, by the time my uberpowerful Baseships reached the enemy, they were obsolete.


with advancement comes cost as well. billions go into research, billions that can be spent on physical material. additionally, you need "update" costs. the pace needs to be kept not just by technology, but also by it's implementation.

furthermore there appears to be a strange cycle i've observed. after a period of significant (and sometimes negative) change, people have a strong desire to become traditionalistic. yet the transition back doesn't go that fast.

Ok, I can give more behavioral info. They are Human, yes, but upbringing, religion and culture still greatly influence behavior.

They would try to make contact with an alien ship. If attacked, they would disable it and ether try again to make contact or attempt to board. If not possible, they would destroy the offending ship. If contact was successful, they would try to exchange basic cultural information, then try to establish diplomatic ties. They have several protectorate races in their kingdom, some Human, some not. They have forcibly brought peace to less advanced waring cultures before though, in the past. Those subject cultures have achieved equal rights now however. In the past they had slaves, but not anymore. They still have a cast system though, only members of noble houses can become Samurai for example. But woman are treated with much more equality now, and noble ladies can become Samurai.

Their most likely response? In any situation? Its quite hard to say, but they wont hesitate to defend themselves, and if you act dishonorably towards them its really really bad. If you have no honor, they view you as a unworthy being/beings. But overall, most Houjin would refer to the Bushido code, at least those in the military and government.

As to how they think? I do not even know how I think. Each Huojin would be a little different, but they usually have noble, honorable intentions. The Kaizoku Karutetu were founded by the mentally unstable and greedy. They are traditionalistic in some ways, but it really varies, even city to city.

They have spent trillions of Koku on research over the years. But they also have a massive trade network that brings in hundreds of billions of profit regularly, then tax's. They have minimal if any debts. Their culture is not nearly as concerned with wealth as say, Americans or English. Money is more to be used for advancement and the benefit of the Houjin race.

Ill post what I have come with for their society so far, government, military e.c.t. Probably not today though.

[Crazy Tom]

thank you, but i have no clue why.

Your Kiron explanation.

they give me a headache.

*cackles*

pretty much anything Tom cooks up.

*maniacal laughter is heard from the basement*

Say, have I told anyone how I re-imagined Star trek warp drive and accidentally found a dirt cheap method of making tons of antimatter?

[Gormagon]

Say, have I told anyone how I re-imagined Star trek warp drive and accidentally found a dirt cheap method of making tons of antimatter?

TONS OF ANTIMATTER!!!! *coughs* Tons of anti matter? How?

[Crazy Tom]

TONS OF ANTIMATTER!!!! *coughs* Tons of anti matter? How?

Well... (turns to the whiteboard taking out a marker)... it was a classical problem of relativistic spacecraft shielding. as the USS Enterprise approaches light speed under warp, the photons in front of it will be blue shifted as they pile on on the front of her warp bubble like rain on a windshield. When the ship surpases c, those photons will be compressed to their smallest possible wavelength of Plank length creating a "gamma ray bow wave", the most high energy gamma ray burst physically possible. Individually, these photons can be defended against, but at the continued exposure of traveling across light-years, passive defenses become inadequate.
The answer is based on the Valkyrie antimatter rocket, which used a forward droplet shield of moisture as a regenerative Whipple shield against interstellar debris. The same concept can be applied to the enterprise at warp, where it's warp field can be extend in front of the ship to generate a buffer zone where the gamma bow wave can interact with a cloud of atomized gas, as the gamma bow wave photons pass close by a nucleus of one of the cloud ions, anti-particles and particles are generated via spontaneous pair creation, making tons of positrons and protons at those energies. The two oppositely charged particles then spiral in different directions across a magnetic field where they are channeled into the ship where they're de-acelerated and stored.
I'm aware of the issues with maintaining the ionized cloud in a forward position while in magnetic field and the loss of cloud material to secondary annihilation events. I haven't gotten around to solving those yet...(twiddles thumbs nervously)

It's also less than useful for Stargate...

[Gormagon]

I'm aware of the issues with maintaining the ionized cloud in a forward position while in magnetic field and the loss of cloud material to secondary annihilation events. I haven't gotten around to solving those yet...(twiddles thumbs nervously)

It's also less than useful for Stargate...

Still, cool paper.

What about destinies F.T.L, that always reminded me of what warp looked like, but with more pretty colors. It may function similar to warp drive. But Star Trek warp drive fails compared to Stargate hyperdrive. How fast does Destiny go? Its taken, what was it, a million years to cross 2 billion light years? Its only moving 2000 light years a year. That seems kinda slow. (Correct me if I am wrong.)

Oh, and I will post info about the Houjin's social structure at some point, but I do not think i have the time right now.

[thekillman]

It's also less than useful for Stargate...

i have to point out a problem with that:

efficiency. to achieve warp, tons of antimatter are burned per second. thus, the amount of AMAT income has to be greater than the expenditure. even assuming fusion can be a viable powersource, you still have that problem.

Your Kiron explanation.

ah yes i see. oh and it's not simple guessing. it's not baseless, and it works quite neatly actually.

Ok, I can give more behavioral info. They are Human, yes, but upbringing, religion and culture still greatly influence behavior.

yes but that's still the honor part. i need to know the curious part.

[Gormagon]

i have to point out a problem with that:

efficiency. to achieve warp, tons of antimatter are burned per second. thus, the amount of AMAT income has to be greater than the expenditure. even assuming fusion can be a viable powersource, you still have that problem.



ah yes i see. oh and it's not simple guessing. it's not baseless, and it works quite neatly actually.




yes but that's still the honor part. i need to know the curious part.

I thought about that actually well we were out. Warp power on Federation ships requires anti deuterium and deuterium. That is what the T.N.G tech manual said anyway. They have fusion reactors for impulse and auxiliary power, but main power is M/A based. I do not know how much is used in the reaction though. Their anti matter storage pods are supposed to last for years, but deuterium must be collected much more often.

Yeah, I do like your theories. I think that you should make up at least one other particle that acts like a kiron but is not a kiron, to give it variety. Sam-"How am I supposed to figure out how to beat a kiron based technology if I dont even know what a kiron is?" I think that implies that not all advanced technologies are kiron based. That could open up some pathways for different levels of advancement. Plus I like variety in my tech diet.

Here are some particle names-Derson, xelon, luon, veyon.

Me and my best friend used much simpler tech. I dug up my old notebook, here are some basic samples of what we used.

Weaponry.
Energy
This was the least in depth. We just had it that there were different kinds of energy, some were more effective for certain things then others.
Plasma
We had that these were primarily heat based weapons. The color determined its effectiveness. Coolest to hottest-Red, yellow, orange, green and blue. Goa'uld plasma cannons were orange, and Wraith could have been blue plasma. Then the A.G.P.B had really hot blue plasma in it.
Particle
These were most effective against hulls and matter. They were streams of various particles.
Ion
Negatively or positively charged particles that were most effective against shields.

Then we had add on's you could put on your weaponry- Charged, accelerated, and disruptive. Charged added 50%/50% damage to shields and hull, accelerated added 100% to hull, and disruptive added 100% to shields. We also had it that different weapon types could be combined, I.E, an ionized plasma canon. What add on's and hybridization's a race could do was limited by their tech level.

Shields
Goa'uld shielding was made of layered ionized orange plasma fields, and Asgard shields were made out of layered energy and blue plasma fields, which is why Wraith blue plasma cannons sucked so bad against them. Why are Ancient shields orange? I decided they had nothing to do with plasma, they were just layered energy and exotic particle fields.

We used those for various games we would have going, sometimes lasting for years.

Huojin
They are curious. They love to discover new things, meet new races, e.c.t, but they were preparing for all out war with the evil, dishonorable Goa'uld domain and that kept them from expanding too much, then a small attack by Anubis shifted 70% of their resources back into military expenditures, then the Replicator attack put them back a bit. They have retaken all their outposts and are rebuilding their fleets and armies. They learned that their atomically sharp trinium/Houjin crystal Katanas could slice and dice Replicators, but that way of fighting them proved minimally effective.


Oh, I know Naquadria is present in the fleets, but what about Adarite? Oh, and about the melting point of trinium, I think that 4k degree's Celcius (7232 degree's F) is a tiny bit low, Tungsten melts at 6192 F, 3442 degree's C. But I agree with the force field casting. Hey, we have been talking about Naq and Trin, but what about Neutronium?