Were the Aschen right?

[asdf1239]

this is starting to become a realworld controversy thread in the thinly veiled guise of stargate

[jackclone1]

this is starting to become a realworld controversy thread in the thinly veiled guise of stargate

Actually it's very Stargate related, the Aschen said we could not possibly cater to a 6 billion (and grwoing rapidly) population. They are right. Already now, back home in OZ, farmers are being pushed off their land close to the cities, for want of urban expansion. It is these urban farm plots that supply most city's with their green vegetables, if they go, and you have to import suspect quality and high priced from elsewhere, that is only the begining. Perhaps it was something like this that got the Aschen started with their farm planets, though I don't like their method of aquisition.

AMEN! When my family moved to the US they had to learn English and US history. When they made phone calls there was no "press 1 for Czech." It seems we're always expected to bend to accomodate others. Why can't they learn the language when they come here?

*steps off soapbox*

I also agree with what you said about humans surviving on this planet for thousands of years in this form. Hopefully we'll become "enlightened" before we destroy ourselves.

Hopefully we can move to the stars by then

[jmoz]

Nice map...but the map shows that the countries with the most population growth are the ones that are impoversihed already. So, I don't see how that could be a good thing.

We in the western world will be fine. Kind of a selfish comfort. Also because of the negative native population growth we could absorb at least some of the surplus from other countries.

What he said.

Yeah but who wants to. My home town is small, with limited resources and they're trying to place refugees and migrants here who just will not fit in, here or in the city. I'm not a racist in any way, if they can fit in and contribute fine, but the latest batch we're getting want everything laid out for them, their own schools, even demanding a seat for their cultural group in state parliament, without being elected. Migration solves nothing, it only transfers one set of cultural problems from one country to another imo.

You're seeing things shortsighted. Look at my post 102 for a brief outline of my thoughts. Don't just skim it though if you are going to read it. I can see you in favor of the second option I presented.

We have more than we need in developed countries, so what's wrong with sharing our benefits when people are starving elsewhere? Or we should be callous?

[SciFiSGFan]

You're seeing things shortsighted. Look at my post 102 for a brief outline of my thoughts. Don't just skim it though if you are going to read it. I can see you in favor of the second option I presented.

We have more than we need in developed countries, so what's wrong with sharing our benefits when people are starving elsewhere? Or we should be callous?

I went back and re-read your post -- if I understand it correctly - these are my thoughts on a couple of the items :

Some people dont WANT to be educated. They arrive with hands out and EXPECT them to be filled by those kind enough to give them permission to enter. Then there are the ones who dont ask permission, enter anyway with their hands out and expect better treatment than some 85 year old WWII veteran who lost a limb defending freedom on foreign soil.

I dont have a problem with helping people elsewhere but what about here? I go to town and see people pulling shopping carts on the side of the street heaped with their belongings because they dont have a place to call home. People and children are starving and living in cars and cardboard boxes in our own front yard.

The USA extends helping hands all across the world but one of two things often happens - 1) we get criticized for it 2) we get ignored when we need help. Granted there are times when we stick our nose in where it really doesnt belong but I ask this --- where would this world be if we'd just closed our eyes and turned our backs on the world back in 1917 or 1941?

[Mike.]

[...] --- where would this world be if we'd just closed our eyes and turned our backs on the world back in 1917 or 1941?

America's decision to enter both wars was purely for its own good - if Germany managed to win in Europe and gain control of its forces the US would have been next. And would have lost. In WWII for example the Germans would have had time to finish their nukes, and the US would be fighting a war on two fronts - against Germany controlled Europe and Japan on the Pacific side. The war was won thanks to all the allies. Even if the resistances in the individual countries would have managed to regain power eventually, it would have been after an even greater loss of life, including on the American side.

On the flip side how do you feel about supporting the killing of thousands of innocents in several illegal wars since then ? You can't say it was in the past, 'cause you're still in one. Their blood is on your hands.

This arrogance is the reason for all the hate worldwide. Oh, yeah, and Bush. Twice.

Why don't we go back on topic now ?

/to mods: this is not meant to be a flame.

[SciFiSGFan]

America's decision to enter both wars was purely for its own good - if Germany managed to win in Europe and gain control of its forces the US would have been next. And would have lost. In WWII for example the Germans would have had time to finish their nukes, and the US would be fighting a war on two fronts - against Germany controlled Europe and Japan on the Pacific side. The war was won thanks to all the allies. Even if the resistances in the individual countries would have managed to regain power eventually, it would have been after an even greater loss of life, including on the American side.

On the flip side how do you feel about supporting the killing of thousands of innocents in several illegal wars since then ? You can't say it was in the past, 'cause you're still in one. Their blood is on your hands.

This arrogance is the reason for all the hate worldwide. Oh, yeah, and Bush. Twice.

Why don't we go back on topic now ?

/to mods: this is not meant to be a flame.

We are all entitled to our opinions.... I agree - in part - with what you say - I chose not to go into it further, tho.

No offense taken ....

[Mike.]

[...]

No offense taken ....

I'm glad. The WW bit struck a chord. I sure feel better now, after that rant.

[SciFiSGFan]

It strkes a cord with me, too... maybe just not the same one, I'm thinking.. Have a good 'whatever part of the day it is'.

[LtColCarter]

Why don't we go back on topic now ?

Yes...the Aschen were right...

[puddlejumperOZ]

What he said.



You're seeing things shortsighted. Look at my post 102 for a brief outline of my thoughts. Don't just skim it though if you are going to read it. I can see you in favor of the second option I presented.

We have more than we need in developed countries, so what's wrong with sharing our benefits when people are starving elsewhere? Or we should be callous?

I can't answer for most of the other "developed" nations, but to add to Jackclone's statement, we here in Australia, though almost as large in area as the continental US, only about 1/3rd of our land is habital, which is then the land used for urbanisation and your essential crop farming. Our water resources are very limited, having endured almost eaight years of drought in most of the country, we are rapidly using up a very dwindling supply. Now we have the largest per capita migrant and refugee intake in the world, housing shortages are critical and most of the upcoming generation will not be able to afford a new home. Then the migrants both legal and illegal arrive and and the versosity to make their demands for everything as Sci pointed out, they want to be set up, and the hand wringers cede to the demands, so they (the migrants) end up being better off than the "natives". My point is, and I know this is true for most of the western world, how does this help?

Our resources and the rest of the world as world, are not finite, and if things continue as they, further wars for territory will occur, if populations are not curbed now. And the only way to acheive this is by forced birth control on those nations that have the rabbit mentality. I know it sounds harsh, even cruel, but until technology not yet available to us, can help, what other options is there. So in the end, yes the Aschen were very right.

[Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble]

I went back and re-read your post -- if I understand it correctly - these are my thoughts on a couple of the items :

Some people dont WANT to be educated. They arrive with hands out and EXPECT them to be filled by those kind enough to give them permission to enter. Then there are the ones who dont ask permission, enter anyway with their hands out and expect better treatment than some 85 year old WWII veteran who lost a limb defending freedom on foreign soil.
I dont have a problem with helping people elsewhere but what about here? I go to town and see people pulling shopping carts on the side of the street heaped with their belongings because they dont have a place to call home. People and children are starving and living in cars and cardboard boxes in our own front yard.

The USA extends helping hands all across the world but one of two things often happens - 1) we get criticized for it 2) we get ignored when we need help. Granted there are times when we stick our nose in where it really doesnt belong but I ask this --- where would this world be if we'd just closed our eyes and turned our backs on the world back in 1917 or 1941?

I think we have got things backwards as I think belive its us that give them entry, without expecting to get anything in return and they just go along with the flow. This post reminds me of people spit out words like immigrant and ayslam seeker when most have gone through hell to get here and are willing to work. The real problem lies with intergration, its feels like here in uk anyway. Come to the uk, live with others of culture a 'ghetto' if you like and everyone wonders why people are racist and why we 'breed' domestic terrorists.

[SciFiSGFan]

I think we have got things backwards as I think belive its us that give them entry, without expecting to get anything in return and they just go along with the flow. This post reminds me of people spit out words like immigrant and ayslam seeker when most have gone through hell to get here and are willing to work. The real problem lies with intergration, its feels like here in uk anyway. Come to the uk, live with others of culture a 'ghetto' if you like and everyone wonders why people are racist and why we 'breed' domestic terrorists.

Have you ever seen the Arizona, Texas and California southern borders?

[Ukko]

All of what i have just read just leaves me feeling (Sadly) that i was right when in a previuos post i said the blame and whatnot would be put on imigrints and devloping countries

The whole, human race dying out idea is sounding pretty good to me right now.

[LtColCarter]

All of what i have just read just leaves me feeling (Sadly) that i was right when in a previuos post i said the blame and whatnot would be put on imigrints and devloping countries

The whole, human race dying out idea is sounding pretty good to me right now.

Well, who else are you going to blame it on? The people who immigrate legally aren't the issue. We have people who immigrate illegally, yet they still receive social services. How is this fair? I understand that they are leaving a place that is not as well off as the US, but how is it fair to the people who immigrate here legally or to the people who are born here? I really don't think it is.

[Mike.]

Current migration issues, esp. with integration are caused by the local governments. Too many immigrants - send them back. Problem solved. Integration ? Put them in schools to learn our ways, if they're not happy they can always go back - after all they came "here" for a better life, not to be in the same situation as back home. Keeping their cultural diversity and identity would not be an issue - knowing and respecting our customs would not get in the way of keeping their own traditions. The key: don't bother anyone. You know, "live and let live". If they can't abide by this simple phrase they have no right to demand citizenship.

[...] And the only way to acheive this is by forced birth control on those nations that have the rabbit mentality. I know it sounds harsh, even cruel, but until technology not yet available to us, can help, what other options is there. [...]

Sorry, that's not going to work. How exactly are we to implement this ? They're not going to go along with it (actually no sovereign state will put up with the demands of another for something this intimate to every citizen). Also what gives us the right to do this, to encroach on another country and tell them what to do, to force their citizens to abide by our rules ?

We'd just start a costly war that won't benefit anyone. Especially in the long run. What then ?
Invade, sterilize a percentage of the population, poison their water supplies with certain chemicals, or just bomb some of their cities for "population control". Start "sterilization" camps ? What if someone breaks these rules ? Kill the children ? Execute the parents ? The whole family ? Forced sterilization ? Do we give special preference to "superior" "races" and exterminate the rest ?

This is WRONG, it breaches the most basic of human rights. It's so WRONG, on so many levels I feel dirty and appalled just by typing this. Just by THINKING this. I hope that something like this NEVER gets implemented or even thought of by someone in any position of power. It's sick. Doesn't anyone else see a problem about this ? The Aschen way is a worse "evil" even that the Goa'uld or Ori if you really think about it. Absolutely not something that should even be tried.

Ultimately if those nations fail to govern themselves properly, they'll feel the effects of poverty and famine. We have no right to interfere. We can give them advice, but it will be their choice what to do.