Comments on the Ori and religion (major S9 spoilers)

[Da Puertorican]

Forgive me if this has been already touched, but I'm new and there are over 6,000 post, I don't think I'll see them all. Also forgive me if I offend anyone, I'm a Christian, but this is too much of a coincidence to me.

I have a theory about our Christianity and the Ascended being connection. We have learned that the Ori draw their power from their believers, they can impregnate someone by will, a.k.a Vala. And I think our Ascenced beings have already do this, and are drawing power from their believers as well.

I think that our Ascended being broke their rules thousand years ago, and interfere with human civilations. I think God can be an Ascended being. And there are coincidences as I call them.

First of all God needs believers. And like the Ori, he issued a book that explain our origin, you know it, "The Bible". As you know the Ascended beings can do whatever they want, can change wheather and perform miracles and all. So making someone believe in them isn't that hard.

Another coincidence I learned while in my Humanity classes in college is that the Bible in the book of Genesis, God refer himself in plural.

When God started losing believers He didn't kill us, but sent us Jesus, which did His bidding, and made us believe in him again, but I think maybe Jesus was a descended being that forgot who he was like all of them do. And Jesus was conceive without sex, just like the Ori did to Vala.

Those are some of the coincidence I've found, and there may be more of them. But that's why I think our Ascended being are not that different from the Ori, but unlike the Ori, they don't kill us, the Ori do.

Again forgive me if I offend anyone, and if this is a repeted thread. But give me your thoughts.

[Gunslinger]

I think you're a little confused about why the Bible says God "wants belivers." God doesn't want believers, he wants love. Because God is love it is impossible for him to not create an object for him to love and to love him back. God doesn't want you to "believe" in him, the bible says the demons in hell believe and tremble at the thought of God. God wants his creation to love him as he loves them, even if they aren't doing what he wants them to, or what he says is right.

I don't know what kind of Christian you are, but I think you've misunderstood some of the Theology there.

On a side not, have any Christians felt that the writers have made the Ori out to be a little too Christian? Lots of passages from the Book of Origins are Bible verses (Be careful that what you accuse your neighbor of does not find root in your household (Origin) vs Do not tell your brother of the speck in your own eve before first removing the log from your own. (Bible)) Certainly they remind me of the Catholic church before the Reformation, but that church was corrupt and not what Christianity is about at all.

Anyways /rant

[walterIsTheMan]

I think it is unlikely that God is an ascended being. By definition, God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good. Ascended beings are not these, therefore they cannot be God. They can pose as "gods", but unless they meet the above criteria they cannot be considered God.

As to the thing about Jesus, your hypothesis that he is a human-form Ori is quite possible (in the SG universe, that is). His behavior is similar to that of a Prior: granting miracles, helping people, all as long as they worship his God. He also sacrificed himself and was resurrected, which would be consistent with the ideology of the Ori followers wanting to die so they can Ascend. Also the fact that slavery is allowed in the Bible supports this theory. It's also unlikely that Jesus was a good ascended Ancient, as A) they would not have interfered; and B) ancients would have been enlightened enough to know that homosexuality is not a sin.

In any case, TPTB will not go down this road. If they say Jesus was a good guy they will alienate their Non-Christian and Atheist viewers. If they say he was a bad guy they will alienate their Christian viewers. We will never really know the answer.

[Katerine]

I don't see what the big problem is. It has been heavily implied that the Goa'uld created the religions especially with the Egyptian pantheon. Ra did go to Egypt 10,000 years ago, long before the creation of Egyptian mythology.

It has been stated in the show on several occasions that the Goa'uld copied existing religions and impersonated their figureheads. It's been stated in the boardroom, it's been stated in the field... if this creates a continuity issue with the movie, then... there's a continuity issue (and it certainly wouldn't be the first time that's happened. Check out Daniel's actual theories in the movie, vs. what the show later claimed Daniel's theories had been). But in this instance, I'm going with what's been stated, over what's been implied.

The Ori couldn't have possibly copied Christianity since the Ori predates Christianity by a couple million years.

I am aware that when I wrote in my wishlist that it might turn out that the Ori were copying Christianity, that this would create a continuity problem. That's why it was just one of three possible solutions that I mentioned, and it was the one I intended to be taken seriously the least. Since then, I've come up with a few other ideas (see my last post regarding exploring more back story on the Ori. I'd really like to see a plotline where they find a piece of Ancient technology that shows a hologram of the way life was back in the days of pre-ascended Ancients and Ori. Where we get to see the Ori as people. That would be good.)

Even if the writers had intentionally written the show to be anti-god, there's nothing wrong with that. They don't have to rectify anything. It's their show and they can do anything they want with it. They don't even have to appease their audience. As long as people watch the show and as long as the crew is willing to continue making the show, it will be on.

You live in a world of differing opinions. Just because you don’t like something does not mean they have to change it to conform to your views. It is necessary for our views to be challenged all the time, it is the only way for us to evolve and grow otherwise we’d all just stagnate and die.

I like it when a show makes me think. I like it when I need to ponder a show for some time to find out just where I stand on an issue that's brought up in the show. I fell in love with Stargate precisely because of episodes like "Scorched Earth," "Menace," and "Absolute Power," which call into question moral issues and ethical dilemmas without a clear right or wrong answer. This, to me, is great television.

Beyond that... I've already explained my issues in exhaustive detail, especially in my most recent post (a few posts before this one), and I'm not particularly feeling up to typing it all again. Also, I don't think I can explain myself any further without starting a heated philisophical debate, which is something I really don't want to do in here. (Or anywhere, for that matter - after 10 years, I've kind of had my fill of them. I know them all by heart.)

So I'm going to sign off now. Again, many thanks to everybody who's posted in here - you've given me a lot to think about, and a lot of excellent other interpretations and ways to look at the show, and I really appreciate it. Thanks!

[Dani347]

Okay, lots of people to respond to, so I'm going to lump it altogether.

First, no, I don't think tptb are ever going to say directly that God is good or evil. I mean, to make an official statement. But, my problem is that I see them creating beings that are meant to represent God, and they made those beings evil, which, as Katerine said, is pretty much slander.


And, yes, one of my big problems is the similarities between the words of the Ori -not words created by their human followers, although repeated by them, but originated by the Ori themselves, the gods and the words of the Bible, which tptb have to know, many people believe originated from God.

See, there are too many connections that I see (again, because I see connections doesn't mean that different connections aren't there, I can only say what I see) to God. And, just because I know God isn't an Ancient and isn't evil doesn't mean that tptb aren't saying, "hey, lets say God really is evil, really is nothing more than a bunch of beings of energy." Not by flat out saying it, but by creating beings who speak similarly to Him, perform miracles, do a lot of things that are the same, with a few twists that would show a deceptive God. This isn't about whether God Himself is really the Ori. But, that doesn't mean tptb aren't saying they're what and what.

And, I know people will disagree (one of the things that happens in a discussion) but before someone says that there's no possible way my interpretation of what I see could be true, I'd like to point out that none of us are in the heads of tptb, so none of us can say definitely for a fact that we're right and the other person is wrong. We can only say that we see it how we see it.

[SG-1ssm]

IMPORTANT NOTE: This post is about Stargate... and it's also about religion. I really can't say what I need to say without talking about both. Odds are some of what I'm about to say is controversial, so in the interests of making life a little easier for the mods, I've created an identical thread here in the Off Topic forum.

This thread (the one you're reading) is for posting discussion that specifically relates to Stargate. That thread is for posting discussion that doesn't specifically relate to Stargate.

A Little Background on Me:
I'm a Christian. At least that's how I define myself when it comes to belief. I was in a Fundamentalist group through most of college, and then I got involved in some online discussions (this was back in the days of telnet, btw), and realized that a good deal of Fundamentalism is unnaturally rigid and doesn't allow for the possibility of differing interpretations - and many of my interpretations ended up being different from that of most of my friends. Or anybody else's, for that matter.

Plus, I always had serious problems (both theological and personal) with evangelism. I left the group for a number of reasons, but mostly because I found myself disagreeing with most of what was being said - and I'd discovered that a lot of people's faith simply can't stand up to a little doubt, even about the most insignificant details, because their faith doesn't allow for any flexibility. Not wanting to be responsible for making good people lose their faith, I left. That was about 10 years ago - currently, I'm in a serious off-again phase, but I still identify myself as basically Christian.

My Comments:
When Season 9 started and we were introduced to the Ori, the first thing I noticed was the obvious resemblance between Harod and Sallis's community and medieval Europe, and the similarities between "prostration" and worship in the Catholic church.

Then, at the end of Avalon, Vala was burned to death. Which, of course, instantly called to mind witch burning and the Inquisition. And then she was healed - an obvious reference to resurrection and healing of the sick. If that wasn't enough, they even had Gregorian chants playing in the background.

I loved Avalon. I loved the interaction between Daniel and Vala, the introduction to Mitchell, and the extremely touching scene at the end of Avalon where they show Daniel ignoring everything else and going to Vala, and then they show from above him holding her, and nothing moves except his hand stroking hers. It was beautiful.

I even loved the Ori plotline at the end of Avalon. It seemed, at the time, that the show might have some good moral about the evils of evangelism in general.

...Then I watched Origin. The proverbial pink elephant, which was already quite large, got a bit bigger. We learned about the teachings of Origin, which bear remarkable resemblance to Fundamentalist teachings about Creation. Daniel questions some of the Priors' interpretations, which instantly brought to my mind the many, many debates that I've been in that were exactly like that discussion (almost word for word). I thought, "Ok, they're making a point about flexibility in belief and acknowledging that your interpretations might not be correct in everything, and not killing people over what you believe vs. what they believe. And it's a good point. Yay writers."

But then it turns out that there was no misinterpretation. That the Ori were, in fact, actively teaching the Priors (who were in turn teaching the people) that all unbelievers must be destroyed, as must all evidence that contradicts the active teachings of the Ori.

This is when I started to have a problem. Because suddenly, this story isn't attacking Christianity, or Islam, or Judaism, or any specific faith or belief, or the people who insist on the irrefutability of their interpretations to the extent of all others...

Instead, it's attacking God. Not just some people's idea of Him. But God Himself.

OTOH, there were a few notable differences between Origin and Biblical teachings that they called attention to. That was nice. I also liked the end of Origin where they kind of referenced God as a benevolent being looking out for us... it was good to have something to contrast God with the Ori, instead of just creating parallels between them.

So, I thought, "Well, maybe I'm looking into this a little too much. I could just choose to not see the parallels that are leaping out at me. Or I could just consider this a work of frivolous fiction - even though I hate having to do that with a show that I started watching in the first place because I loved how it makes me really think about things."

And then I thought, "Hey! Maybe the Ori are really meant to represent followers of a religion, and it's really the philosophy of Ascension that's the basis for the religion itself. Ascension is, after all, based on a plotline that's mostly grounded in philosophy, not theology. Maybe the Ori really do want to help people ascend, but they've lost sight of the fact that people can't be saved by something they're following for the wrong reasons. As well as the fact that you can't force somebody to believe something, and it's wrong to try, because it ends up doing more harm than good." (see above re: me having problems with evangelism).

And I continued to think that. Right up until "The Fourth Horseman". Not minding, and in fact even appreciating, the ever-growing pink elephant.

But then "The Fourth Horseman" happened. And, it turns out, the Ori have been lying to everybody!

This is where I started to really have a problem. Because the allegorical nature of the story didn't stop there. Oh no. It just got worse.

• The plotlines of "The Powers that Be" and "The Scourge" are taken directly from the book of Exodus. Minus the whole reason for the Plagues, of course ("Let my people go") - in the show, it's just punishment for not believing. However, most people are not going to think of "Let my people go," when they watch the show - they'll just notice the similarities between what's happening in the show and the Plagues. They won't stop to think about the differences.
  
• The "doomsday" prophecies call the book of Revelations to mind.
  
• And I trust I don't even need to mention the healing of the sick, the preachings from the Book of Origin, the motivations of the followers, and of course the whole immaculate conception thing.

And it turns out the Ori, who are clearly meant as a metaphor for God, are lying. That they have no motivation that could be considered benevolent.

This is just wrong, on so many levels.

I can understand how somebody might resent some of the actions in the Bible on the grounds that they were harsh. What I cannot accept, understand, or condone is the implication that God is somehow deceitful. There is no justification for that, no evidence to support that idea in the least, and it's... slander. Against somebody who really, really, really does not deserve it.

I loved the Ori plotline in the first part of Season 9. Since the Fourth Horseman, though, I've been watching the show in spite of the Ori plotline. And, in fact, I have to rationalize in order to justify continuing to watch to myself. Nobody should ever have to rationalize in order to justify enjoying a show. When they have to do that, there's something wrong with the show. Not only that, but I rationalize by trying not to think about the pink elephant. I like thinking about metaphorical meanings and morals in shows! I don't want to have to stop!

As far as I can think, the show can do one of three things to rectify this problem in Season 10:

1. They can stop copying plotlines from the Bible.
   
   
   Or...
   
   
2. They can show that the Ori have copied Christianity deliberately, the way the Goa'uld impersonated existing Gods. I can't think how this could work with the logic of the show, though.
   
   
   Or...
   
   
3. They could have Vala's baby bear no resemblance, in any way, shape, or form, to Jesus whatsoever. Not physically, not in terms of how he/she lives his/her life, nothing.
   • It could be a completely normal baby in every way. Meaning that there is absolutely nothing unusual about him/her except how he/she came to be. The baby could have been conceived for the sole purpose of having the Ori be able to say, "Look at us! We made a baby! Isn't it a miracle?"
   • It could be an abnormal baby, but in a way that is clearly bad and clearly completely unrelated to Jesus's life. That means no resurrection, no followers, and above all, NO TEACHING!
   
   Because, if it turns out that, on top of everything else, Vala's baby is some messianic figure who displays uncommon wisdom for his age, gathers disciples, teaches to all the wisdom of the Book of Origin, is martyred, and comes back to life, I WILL have to stop watching.

Ok, I'm done. Replies welcome, although please reference the note at the top of this post when figuring out where to reply.

I concur...TPTB better kock it off.

[Arturis]

The bottom line to everyone who is offended because they think The Ori are an "affront to God" should simply do as a wise man once suggested: change the channel or simply turn off your television. If you do not like it then do not watch it. That is as simple as I can present that concept.

On the other hand, I can appreciate those who have been longtime Stargate fans who might be offended by the current direction of the show. I'm sure TPTB have no desire to offend any of the fans of SG-1 as we are essentially their "paying customers". The Ori do not represent any major modern religion in particular, but merely serves as a metaphor for how dangerous religous fanaticism can be in our world. The three major modern religions (Christinity, Islam, and Judaism) are all based, as I am certain we are all aware of, on upon the concepts of faith and peace. There have been fanatical sects of all three major religions who have killed others and caused much havoc in the world based upon an interpretation of a religion that leads them to believe that nonbelievers and/or heretics must be killed. There is no major religion that endorses violence no matter what fear of the modern world may cause some to believe. Christ, Muhammad, and the fathers of Judaism all believed in peace, not violence in God's name. Many of the "endtime events" that were mentioned in the original post are common to many religions and should not serve as references to Christinity. The Ori are fictional characters who serve as antagonists in the fictional world of Stargate and are not meant to represent any religion in particular.

Of course this is just my two cents and kind of heavy for my first post but I thought these were important points to make. I mean no offense to the original poster, nor to any of those who have posted afterwards. Respect for the views of others is important whether it be in regards to religous beliefs or in a simple public forum such as this. Thanks all.

[Dani347]

I fail to see why I should be told not to watch a show because I don't like one aspect of it, or why anyone cares whether or not I watch. I'll decide whether or not to keep watching.

[Betelgeuze]

Hi, i hope it's o.k. if i give my view on this.

First, i must admit that i have not yet seen season 9 of SG-1, but from what i've read so far writers have used aspects of Judeo-Christian mythology for the Ori storyline.

I think that using Judaic and Christian mythology for season 9 makes sense. In the first 8 seasons ancient mythology played a significant role, now they have moved on to modern religion, this is a logical process, because modern religion evolved from ancient mythology.

Judaic mythology (the OT) has it's roots in Sumerian and in particular Canaanite mythology. The NT is influenced by ancient Greek and Egyptian mythology and Mithraism.

So the writers have now moved on from ancient mythology to using aspects of modern religion hereby following the evolution of religion.

I do not see why some people are insulted by this, I think that before people start taking offense, they should study the origins of their religion. It is hypocritical not to have a problem with the use of Hindu mythology but to feel offended when aspects of their own mythology are used.

You can believe what you want but you should be aware that not everyone sees your religion the same way you do. That said my advice would be to just enjoy the show and not take offense every time aspects of your religion are used in a way that you do not agree with.

I hope i have not offended anyone with my post.

[tristan]

And it turns out the Ori, who are clearly meant as a metaphor for God,

I think that's where you're wrong. I don't think the Ori are a metaphor for God, I think the Ori simply represent a religion that forces itself on everyone, without exception. Granted, a lot that happens around the Ori has been taking from Christianity (plagues, immaculate conception, etc), but the Ori themselves have nothing in common with God. For one, they are not real gods. They lie to their followers. They are associated with fire. This last points shows that if they to be a metaphor for anyone, it's the devil. I don't think anyone in their right mind would connect the Ori with God, as they are completely different. In the show itself it is even said that our God is benevolent, which is not the case with the Ori.

And ask yourself this: if the writers/directors really wanted to bash Christianity or God, do you think they would have done it in such an obvious way? I don't think they're that kind of people. This metaphor would be too obvious for anyone to see.

[Skythe]

I fail to see why I should be told not to watch a show because I don't like one aspect of it, or why anyone cares whether or not I watch. I'll decide whether or not to keep watching.

So what, the writers should change the whole show because you don't like their portayal of your religion? Should the bible be changed because scientists don't like their portayal of reality?

Pretty much the very first thing i thought about the Ori race itself: that they're taking the piss out of religion(read: christians). There are clear paralells between Origin and Christianity (For example, the Crusades were largely religious wars initated by the roman-catholics, Priors with their sticks resemble the pope, Stuff from the book of Origin is read like stuff from the Bible, stuff from the book of origin is a load of crap made up to make people worship the Ori, etc).

But then it turns out that there was no misinterpretation. That the Ori were, in fact, actively teaching the Priors (who were in turn teaching the people) that all unbelievers must be destroyed, as must all evidence that contradicts the active teachings of the Ori.

This is when I started to have a problem. Because suddenly, this story isn't attacking Christianity, or Islam, or Judaism, or any specific faith or belief, or the people who insist on the irrefutability of their interpretations to the extent of all others...

Instead, it's attacking God. Not just some people's idea of Him. But God Himself.

Whats the problem here? Don't you notice the paralells between bishops and priors? The crusades which were largely sactioned by the roman-catholic papacy (read: head ori guy and priors) resulted in millions being slayed in the name of god. I don't really think its implied that the actual 'god' Ori are pulling the strings. That would be interfering. This is a completely reasonable depiction.

Obviously i'm an athiest. I've been watching stargate since it began. Stargate is practically the reason i have the views that i do. (The night i watched children of the gods (pilot) - i was like.. 9 was actually the night i adopted such views ). To me stargate has always been about how people can be wrong about things like god(s). I find it hard to think that this has never occured to you or offended you before. Haven't you noticed that the entire show is largely based around the deities of different cultures? Even though it is said that the goa'uld posed as egyptian gods, i still feel that they were insinuating that the egyptian gods weren't real. Now i know your probably going to highlight the differences between the egyptian and ori depiction, the fact that no one believes in Ra anymore, and so forth, but have you not noticed the recurring trend of SG1 travelling to planet x, finding some race believing in some sort of technology to be the work of some sort of higher thing and then having SG1 teach them the error of their ways? Is this not what they are doing with the Ori? Should they change the ethos of their show because of this? I am sorry to offend you but this is the way i feel.

# They can stop copying plotlines from the Bible.

Last time i checked, plotlines are recycled everywhere. Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't stargate almost redundantly based upon plotlines of different stories?

# They can show that the Ori have copied Christianity deliberately

Whats the point in this? Would this not further antagonise Christianity? The Ori would still be preaching false values.

To me, i feel the whole show has implied that religion, any form of superstition or irregularity is largely false - that the explanation for god can be a snaz piece of technology or that jesus was probably an ancient (obviously i dont believe this myself but they make it work well). This is an implication that has been carried throughout the whole series - itself in a metaphorical sense. The above demand is clearly inconsistent with the current storyline and i honestly don't think it would change a whole lot.

They could have Vala's baby bear no resemblance, in any way, shape, or form, to Jesus

This is a reasonable demand.

[Edit: In addition to what was said about the antichrist, Daniel has previously commented on allusions to the Ori and Christianity (Christianity - fire - demons. Origin - fire - good). Also i think it has been iterated that the way you use great power is a measure of how you should be revered, so there is food for thought - Origin has key differences to Christianity. /Edit]

It's loverly to know that as soon as your religion gets its turn in the storyline arc you don't like it. But you have to realise that the Ori story arc is based on the crusades. The crusades occured primarily because of religion. Ignoring this fact would imply ignorance.

[FrizzleFry]

I do not see the Ori as a metaphor for God at all. It has been very clearly established that the Ori are ascended beings who were very much like humans at some point. They did not create the Universe. They are basically another group of powerful beings that claim to be gods to achive and maintain power. Of course, most of their followers do not realize this.

On the other hand, the religion of the Ori, Origin, has some similarities to Judaism, Christianity and Islam. There is a holy book, the religion is spread by "prophets", quotes from the Book of Origin resemble passages from the Bible, the methods used by the priors are based on stories from the Bible, and, of course, Vala's "immaculate conception". Origin is most definitely a metaphor for intolerant fundamental religions. I am not too surprised that some religious people are offended by these similarities.

It is an interesting idea to have the villians use these methods and stories which are familiar to us, it makes it more significant. After all, the Ori are probably the most powerful beings we have encountered in the Stargate universe. I think they might actually be more powerful than the Ancients since the Ori are drawing something from their worshipers.

I like the idea that the Ancients are actually heretics or rebels of the Ori. The Ori promise to ascend their followers, but the Ancients believe that only beings capable of ascending on their own are worthy. Probably the first Ancient that ascended figured out the Ori were lying and started their rebellion. Or were they humans when they figured it out and were only able to ascend after they left the Ori galaxy?

Anyway, I like Stargate SG-1 because it not only entertains you, it makes you think. I would rather that a few people get somewhat offended that have it become some bland lowest-common-denominator network crap.

[kmiller1610]

I think one of the major problems with the Ori is that there is no specific connection to our history and no "wink / nod " recognition among its proponents that they know they aren't Gods or just a bunch of power hungry egomaniacs. There are no competing Ori. Daniel Jackson can't sit down at his computer and show us where they came from. They seem unstoppable. And as we move away from the original stargate concept (rooted in our history, projected into space), there is the question of relating to them. The Shadows were chaos. The Vorlons were order. The Goa'uld were just power hungry guys and gals with great toys. Even the replicators were just toys out of control.

So how does the audience "access" the Ori? What's the positive hook? They don't look cool. They look burned out and dead. They aren't buff. They aren't sexy. We don't understand them. The only people who seem to have any connection to them are other religious folks and only in a negative way. These are not cool bad guys.

I see the Ori as a combination of everything that could possibly go wrong with religion. Whoever came up with this plot idea should be fired. Based on the Atlantis and SG-1 plot lines, I'm hoping the wraith can deal with them....

[Dani347]

I do not see why some people are insulted by this, I think that before people start taking offense, they should study the origins of their religion. It is hypocritical not to have a problem with the use of Hindu mythology but to feel offended when aspects of their own mythology are used.

I think you're still mistaking the problem. And, a lot of people are still mistaking the problem. It's not the mere use of the religion. It's the way I see it being used. And, it's the way I see the equivalent of God being used. I don't see them using Hindu mythology (when did they use Hindu mythology?) or Egyptian in an insulting way. Why should I be offended if the way they use it isn't offensive to me? They used Christian themes in Demons and it didn't offend me. And, as for hypocritical, I don't think it is. I don't expect a Hindu to feel insulted by slander to the Christian God. Why should they when they don't believe in Him? I don't get this argument that people have to have the same reaction to everything and have this mellow thing where everything is on an equal scale. Human beings have strong preferences and strong connections with things and no connections with others. If a Hindu found something offensive in the show and said so, I wouldn't feel there was something wrong if they didn't pipe up with the same feelings towards the portrayal of Christianity or my God.

You can believe what you want but you should be aware that not everyone sees your religion the same way you do. That said my advice would be to just enjoy the show and not take offense every time aspects of your religion are used in a way that you do not agree with.

Okay, please point me to where someone said that everyone sees their religion the same way they do. No one has said that. And, it's completely irrelevant to my position. And, I can't "just enjoy the show." My enjoyment is directly related to whether or not I feel offended, to whether or not I think the show is good, to whether or not I think my favorite characters are being written well and given enough to do. I just don't understand the argument that you should enjoy the show even if.... It's those even ifs that contribute or take away from my enjoyment of the show.

And, when should people ever take offense at something? If a person can't take offense over something as important to them as their religion (and for some people that's the most important thing to them) than what in the world can they take offense with?

I deleted my prior message. Not gonna get into it. Although I might have a few fist sized holes in my wall. Sheesh.

[Katerine]

Ok, I'm going to pretend to be a mod here, even though I'm not one.

Speaking as the person who started this thread... I realize that this is a somewhat incendiary subject, but up until now everybody's done a great job of staying respectful... and if things degenerate now, I'm probably the one who will be blamed. Which is a bit unfair, if I do say so myself, since, for me, at least, the goal of this thread was to make my point, and then to learn from everybody else's input. And things were going so well there...

To all posters: first of all, thank you for your input. It really is appreciated. As many of you will note when you carefully re-read all of the past posts in this thread, most of the recently-brought-up points had already been made and addressed, and my position has changed somewhat as a result, due to the many excellent arguments put forth in here. Again, thank you.