Original Starship Design Thread

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

It's been in the Sci-and-tech section for a while, tep. Normally Tom starts it and I end it.

[immhotep]

Really i havent noticed it? It hasnt been in here atall which is the usual location for all ship related arguments. though i will admit i havent been paying as much attention to every thread in this section recently. Havent seen it though. What thread has it been in specificly...im curious because i usually notice these type of things.

Oh and tom is too critical, hes a new zake/AJT. Their are alway those kind of people around, its healthy.

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

Well, the AUVF is the one that sticks out, but it seems to follow Tom around.

[Crazy Tom]

Tom your to critical on designs for this thread. This isn't the practical space capable thread, its the Original Starship Design thread. Ships here can be in all shapes and sizes.

Well, the AUVF is the one that sticks out, but it seems to follow Tom around.

I'm sorry! It's like a biological imperative! I have to argue the practical side of things.

The light of Atomic Rocket wil be seen!

[jonos101]

Tom , you just don't understand that its Science FICTION. Key word, FICTION. If the designer says that his fighter does triple backflips, then it does triple backflips and if the designer says his fighters are useful, then they are useful.

[immhotep]

Its not a practical side of anything. A large fighter fleet cannot be combated with only rail gun fire without the opposing fleet of capitol ships sustaining heavy loses. Look at how effective fighters have been against Hive ships in Pegasus, or how they took out asurian aurora's, or how PJ's have taken out hataks. They are needed and are practical.

[Crazy Tom]

Tom , you just don't understand that its Science FICTION. Key word, FICTION. If the designer says that his fighter does triple backflips, then it does triple backflips and if the designer says his fighters are useful, then they are useful.

Then I'd just read FICTION.

This is SCIENCE-fiction.

Its not a practical side of anything. A large fighter fleet cannot be combated with only rail gun fire without the opposing fleet of capitol ships sustaining heavy loses. Look at how effective fighters have been against Hive ships in Pegasus, or how they took out asurian aurora's, or how PJ's have taken out hataks. They are needed and are practical.

You can't uses on screen example in this case, as that was dictaded purely by plot, a dozen fighters cannot best several hundred enemy ones. The math just doesn't add up.

And the jumper was a super advanced piece of technoogy, it was like a WW2 batelship versus an apache.

[immhotep]

No it wasnt, the only advanced piece of technology was the Time device, and the drones. In all other respects its goauld level tech, the goauld have both gate based capable fighters and cloaked small transport craft. It they combined them they could easily create a PJ.
Also yes they can. No stargate enemy fighter has BVR weapons, and in close combat our fighters are significantly more agile with great pilots and a heck of alot of advanced technology to augment conventional aerial tactics, which we have been improving on since the mid 20th century. In the real world, the latest fighters are so expensive that only a handful can actually be built, but they are so powerful that they are able to supress vast areas of significantly great military numbers. You claim to wantto be practical yet your sig contains one of the most insulting fighter based films in history...
Fighters in space are a useful tactical asset, and a staple of both scifi and im sure any real world ship would have a fighter wing for defense. At the very least Capitol ships are not able to do everything at once, a fighter wing of whatever type cannot be discluded from a ship or fleets overall makeup. The only race in stargate that has not shown a fighter compliment is the Asgard, however thier race problems and their biological form make a fighter type craft unsuitable. Its probley why they have developed thier shields to be so powerful, because they do not have the ability to project thier ships power without going in to a heavy close quarters combat.

[Crazy Tom]

No it wasnt, the only advanced piece of technology was the Time device, and the drones. In all other respects its goauld level tech, the goauld have both gate based capable fighters and cloaked small transport craft. It they combined them they could easily create a PJ.

The PJ was an Ancient craft, that's about as advanced as you get.

Also yes they can. No stargate enemy fighter has BVR weapons, and in close combat our fighters are significantly more agile with great pilots and a heck of alot of advanced technology to augment conventional aerial tactics, which we have been improving on since the mid 20th century. In the real world, the latest fighters are so expensive that only a handful can actually be built, but they are so powerful that they are able to supress vast areas of significantly great military numbers. You claim to wantto be practical yet your sig contains one of the most insulting fighter based films in history...
Fighters in space are a useful tactical asset, and a staple of both scifi and im sure any real world ship would have a fighter wing for defense. At the very least Capitol ships are not able to do everything at once, a fighter wing of whatever type cannot be discluded from a ship or fleets overall makeup. The only race in stargate that has not shown a fighter compliment is the Asgard, however thier race problems and their biological form make a fighter type craft unsuitable. Its probley why they have developed thier shields to be so powerful, because they do not have the ability to project thier ships power without going in to a heavy close quarters combat.

What makes you think the wraith don't have equly goo dfigters? And as to BVR, neither have our ships or fighters ever shown this ability. Does it mean they don't have it? What makes our pilots so much better than the pilots of other species? Especialy as the Wraith as biologicaly superior in about every way. Granted, experience is teh deciding factor, but they aren't all greenies, some of those pilots probably flew during the Wraith/Ancient war.

Plase don't atack me personaly, it takes away from the dabate, and fyi, it's in my sig beucase I rather liked that movie.

While fighters may abe a stable of science firstion, that doen't mean the should be, they are there to entertain the mases, not be a practical assset.

Real world ships do not fight in space, their weponry is limited in range due to both gravity/atmosphere and the curve of the horizon. That is why cariers exist, becuse they can project force via their fighters beyond the horizon.

And we've all blamed the writers for carapy science, yourself included, so why are you defending that science now?

Just because it's shown on screen, doesn't mean it's right.

[immhotep]

What makes you think the wraith don't have equly goo dfigters? And as to BVR, neither have our ships or fighters ever shown this ability. Does it mean they don't have it? What makes our pilots so much better than the pilots of other species? Especialy as the Wraith as biologicaly superior in about every way.

We know the wraith dont have equally great fighters because we have blwon up so damn many of them, i am not saying ours are absolutely amazing either but they are very effective, in smaller numbers we have done some pretty severe damage to the wraith and fighters have been a big asset. Our fighters showed BVR in the Antartica battle, thats one example.
The wraith are no biologically superior in every way. no where near. But thats a different debate.

Granted, experience is teh deciding factor, but they aren't all greenies, some of those pilots probably flew during the Wraith/Ancient war.

Well most of our pilots are highly seasoned officers, at the moment, that would change in the future but they have to have sufficent clearence and experience to be selected to fly F302's and know about the gate program etc. At the moment.
Also we know that the wraith cloned thousands of warriors now to beat the ancients, that means that they have expendable pilots, not worth fully training but more like cannon fodder, so its likely that dart pilots are not exactly skilled pilots or tacticans. The fact they use SO many says more about thier numbers over tactics mentality than it does about using elite squads in small numbers to impact large damage with small casualities.

While fighters may abe a stable of science firstion, that doen't mean the should be, they are there to entertain the mases, not be a practical assset.

No i would say they are a practical asset, and you shouldnt blame everything on bad writers because then you would have to insult every scifi show, writer, producer, directors in the entire genre past and preset. I think that in the 100 years since scifi has been a genre and fighters have been a feature, that someone would have begun to question it, considering stargate has air force advisors as does many other shows, it would stand to reason that someone would have said they wouldnt use fighters. What makes you so sure they are not a practical asset?

Real world ships do not fight in space, their weponry is limited in range due to both gravity/atmosphere and the curve of the horizon. That is why cariers exist, becuse they can project force via their fighters beyond the horizon.

Exactly, Fighters in space actually make much more sense than in the atmosphere. They are no limited by the physical constrains, there are no obstacles to get in the way, they can focus on their targets. your right that weaponry is limited on a planet, but it isnt in space. So that would make fighters actally more suited to space combat than in the atmosphere..

And we've all blamed the writers for carapy science, yourself included, so why are you defending that science now?

Just because it's shown on screen, doesn't mean it's right

Yes i have but this isnt science, this is tactics and tactically fighters are useful asset to any commander to have at his/her disposal. on Screen or not.

[Crazy Tom]

We know the wraith dont have equally great fighters because we have blwon up so damn many of them, i am not saying ours are absolutely amazing either but they are very effective, in smaller numbers we have done some pretty severe damage to the wraith and fighters have been a big asset. Our fighters showed BVR in the Antartica battle, thats one example.
The wraith are no biologically superior in every way. no where near. But thats a different debate.

That is a diferent debate, but i would really lik to see your resoning.

Well most of our pilots are highly seasoned officers, at the moment, that would change in the future but they have to have sufficent clearence and experience to be selected to fly F302's and know about the gate program etc. At the moment.
Also we know that the wraith cloned thousands of warriors now to beat the ancients, that means that they have expendable pilots, not worth fully training but more like cannon fodder, so its likely that dart pilots are not exactly skilled pilots or tacticans. The fact they use SO many says more about thier numbers over tactics mentality than it does about using elite squads in small numbers to impact large damage with small casualities.

However teir umbers still stand, and their not exactly idiots either. There are simply too many of them for our fighters to come out of a fight so unscated.

No i would say they are a practical asset, and you shouldnt blame everything on bad writers because then you would have to insult every scifi show, writer, producer, directors in the entire genre past and preset. I think that in the 100 years since scifi has been a genre and fighters have been a feature, that someone would have begun to question it, considering stargate has air force advisors as does many other shows, it would stand to reason that someone would have said they wouldnt use fighters. What makes you so sure they are not a practical asset?

Airforce advisors, not science advisors, space is reay diffrent from atmo.

Exactly, Fighters in space actually make much more sense than in the atmosphere. They are no limited by the physical constrains, there are no obstacles to get in the way, they can focus on their targets. your right that weaponry is limited on a planet, but it isnt in space. So that would make fighters actally more suited to space combat than in the atmosphere..

Yes i have but this isnt science, this is tactics and tactically fighters are useful asset to any commander to have at his/her disposal. on Screen or not.

This is space, science is tactics in space. It dictates tactics. Now, please, please please, read this article on space fighers in the websitte below, humor me ok? just scroll down untill you see a starfury.

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3x.html

[immhotep]

Thats your evidence? "why dont they have a missile bus?" please.

[Crazy Tom]

Thats your evidence? "why dont they have a missile bus?" please.

Sorry, what's your point?

[lord groovy]

Well most of our pilots are highly seasoned officers, at the moment, that would change in the future but they have to have sufficent clearence and experience to be selected to fly F302's and know about the gate program etc. At the moment.
Also we know that the wraith cloned thousands of warriors now to beat the ancients, that means that they have expendable pilots, not worth fully training but more like cannon fodder, so its likely that dart pilots are not exactly skilled pilots or tacticans. The fact they use SO many says more about thier numbers over tactics mentality than it does about using elite squads in small numbers to impact large damage with small casualities.

Since we are mixing real world and SGVerse, I would point that if the Wraith did exist, their pilots won't be so crappy. Against the Ancients, they would have probably cloned only the best pilots. And even if they didn't intend to, natural selection would make it so (only the best would be able to make it back).
Or you can still say that 10.000 years of sleeping made them soft.

Concerning the discussion about fighters, I think that there are 2 point of views :

- classical one : where spaceships are compared to the old vessels and big boats in 15th century. Huge cannons on each side that pounds enemy ships until there is nothing left. This was interesting as long they were slow.

- modern one : where fighters serve as support by damaging the enemy flag ship until it could be easily overwhelmed by your flagship. If you have a really powerful ship that's not a problem but well you have to realise that it won't live long if there is nothing to protect it. In that case, fighters are rather an advantage on long missions with few opportunities of resupply and repairs.

Both point stands. In my case, I don't really like fighters and prefers bombers like the Al'Kesh. If possible, I'd make some kind of heavy fighter.

[titan_hq]

Since we are mixing real world and SGVerse, I would point that if the Wraith did exist, their pilots won't be so crappy. Against the Ancients, they would have probably cloned only the best pilots. And even if they didn't intend to, natural selection would make it so (only the best would be able to make it back).
Or you can still say that 10.000 years of sleeping made them soft.

Concerning the discussion about fighters, I think that there are 2 point of views :

- classical one : where spaceships are compared to the old vessels and big boats in 15th century. Huge cannons on each side that pounds enemy ships until there is nothing left. This was interesting as long they were slow.

- modern one : where fighters serve as support by damaging the enemy flag ship until it could be easily overwhelmed by your flagship. If you have a really powerful ship that's not a problem but well you have to realise that it won't live long if there is nothing to protect it. In that case, fighters are rather an advantage on long missions with few opportunities of resupply and repairs.

Both point stands. In my case, I don't really like fighters and prefers bombers like the Al'Kesh. If possible, I'd make some kind of heavy fighter.

Exactly what I was going to say.

IMO fighters are an integral part of Fleet combat. Your battleships can fight their battleships but will be overwhelmed by smaller ships and fighters.

For an effective SG fleet you need:
Battleship -anti capital ship
Carriers - fighter carrier
Cruisers - anti medium ship/fighter
Destroyers - anti-small ship/fighter
Fighters - close range tactical strikes and to defend against other fighters.