Who should lead SG1?(Spoilers)

[Lightsabre]

{Mod Snip}

IMO, It seemed fairly clear that Jack didn't have a plan. He had an objective, but not a plan, other than the fact that at some point, they would have to somehow utilize Sam's past relationship with him to get to Jonas. And although he was surprised by her method, he realized that it was the best way to get in without bloodshed.

Hmm, so Sam, as the 2IC, should just do what she wants, cause she doesn't know if her CO has a plan?

Also, we don't know how Teal'c or Daniel felt about what she did. Your interpretation from what they said is that they thought she did something stupid, but I disagree with your opinion.

Umm, Daniel says 'We should have stopped her'.
Seems liek the thought it was a mistake a least.

Thus answers 1-4.

Just saying we don't know things is not answering my points nor refuting them.
Casting doubt it not rebuttal.

As for A, B and C. She saved an innocent man's life and completed the mission objective to get to him without bloodshed.

When was that a mission objective?

While with Jonas, she realized the full extent of his madness and saved Jack's life by repairing the device...which by the way helped saved them all in the long run since Jonas was going to kill her, Jack and Conner but the activation of the device proved to the natives that Jonas was a fraud. She also jumpkicked the gun out of Jonas's hand with her hands tied behind her back and got backhanded for it.

And? Mitchell stormed the Ha'tak and saved Teal'c. This apparently doesn't make his run justified.
How does the fact that good came from her foolish action make that action ok?

So I think she acted heroically in this episode (as opposed to hewoically), as did Jack for risking capture by attempting to retrieve Conner and Daniel for standing up to Jonas and encouraging Jamala to stand up for his people.

She ran off and punched a guy. She was then captured. How is that heroic?
It's a classic case of someone acting the 'hewo'

[Lightsabre]

I agree. Even in the fictional SGC, they've maintained a standard that closely resembles an Air Force base. The soldiers, the protocols...they all seem to have been close to the real thing.

I think my biggest beef is that it has established its own truth over the past decade...a certain blend of reality and fiction...that it adhered to so well for so long.

Season 9 comes along and it feels like it's not adhering to its own rules anymore, with Carter, with Mitchell, with the CMoH, etc. The issues become that much more stark comparatively speaking because we've had such apparent consistency for so long.

But they are not obligated to maintain that. If they want to rewrite certain rules, they can.

[RealmOfX]

You quoted it.
I told you what I consider ground skills and Mitchell has shown all of them.

If you want specific eps.
Babylon
Off the Grid
The Scourge
Prototype
That's just off the top of my head

I asked what your definition of ground skills is and what I got is "Mitchell knows his way around weaponry, he knows the hand signals and he's able to quickly and easily improvise tactics using standard issue gear(like the C4).", this is not a definition of ground skills.

{Mod Snip} I was using it in this sense - definition
n 1: a concise explanation of the meaning of a word or phrase or symbol

I also asked for examples not episode names.

[Deevil]

I know Captains and Lt Cols have different levels of responsibility, but I don't liken them to a 10 year old and an adult.
There is only 1 grade between the ranks, but there is 11+ years between a 10 year old and an adult.
I don't see how their rank matters here.

There are 2 grade differences, We have Capt - Major then Lt. Col. Moving through those 2 extra grades, which can be about 8 years I think is a large step and has more responsibility and accountablity. Rank does matter.

So Carter's responsibility and accountablity is still different to Mitchell's.

Incidently, adult is considered 18 even in the US. Once you can be charged as an adult, and are given the responsibiliy as an adult - you are essentially an adult. So, the 10 year old to adult makes sense still .

1)In 'Stronghold', they were in battle, I agree that he shouldn't have run off, but he was taking an oppurtuity to complete the mission.

He acted wrongly.

2)Carter was part of a small, vastly outnumbered recon team.
Her actions did NOT further the plan. She was captured. SHe was not an 'in' into the camp, as her actions did not help Daniel, Jack or Teal'c get in.

Yes they did... They helped them learn what was happening, and even saved Jacks life when he was caught. Therefore, it did provide and 'in'

We also don't know how Jack planned to use her, she could have majorly messed up his plan by acting as she did.
Also, to me, the fact she made a headstrong decision is made worse by teh fact she stopped, thought it through and did it anyway.

Jack did plan on using her

O'NEILL: Not yet, Captain? When the time comes I'll need your help getting in the front door."

I think that implies what she was going to be used for. Therefore his plan was to use Sam to get in the front door. That was the outcome. He even admits later her getting captured was the only way to get in without bloodshed.

I think the decision is one from a more educated place then Mitchell's who just took off, without any knowledge of what was going off, leaving behind the plan as if it never existed.

Umm, sorry, speculation.

He was to wait for back-up, very clear in canon. He left them in danger, very clear in canon. I admited that him being charged with providing back-up was speculation, so there was no need to bring it up.

[Dani347]

I asked what your definition of ground skills is and what I got is "Mitchell knows his way around weaponry, he knows the hand signals and he's able to quickly and easily improvise tactics using standard issue gear(like the C4).", this is not a definition of ground skills.

What would be a definition of ground skills?

[Madeleine]

I can't really see how the 'but its not RL' arguement can hold water. Simply because you can use that to justify anything. I think if you want to justify something, using a real-world example is a better thing to do.

This is why the 'It's not RL' argument works for me:

It's a TV Drama. I can think of two or three shows (comedies, oddly enough) where I can see people speaking and behaving naturalistically, but not a single Drama show. As soon as it gets to the TV screen it's automatically going to have Declaiming instead of Conversation, and far more heroics and drama than a RL situation could be expected to provide. TV is mostly a fantasy land to me anyway.

They travel though a special gateway to other worlds and meet aliens who speak ENGLISH. That just doesn't happen in RL

Plenty of unmilitary things have happenned over the years: Daniel getting assigned to a front line combat team; Sam's hair in s7; Sam being attatched to the same team and same CO for seven years instead of being moved around to broaden her experience in prep for her own command; Jonas getting the SG-1 slot ahead of all the Proving Ground kids and other trainees and all the SGC's other personel; Not wearing hats ; Insufficient use of the Alpha site (they should have had an address ready as early as Solitudes and they should have used it in Bane, MiaB, Sight Unseen and loads of other cases); I could go on. The only solution for me is to assume that since it's not RL, RL rules don't apply unless we see them applying on the show, and that works fine for me.

JMO.

[Deevil]

Not wearing hats

That annoys me more then anything, 'specially for Sam's whose hair acts like a becon in the sunlight. It'd give away their position and, and...

I could talk about that one forever. That being said though, it has been an issue nearly since the first episode, I accept it as SG stuff, not RL stuff. Well, I usually accept it... it's just that sometimes....

[Lightsabre]

I asked what your definition of ground skills is and what I got is "Mitchell knows his way around weaponry, he knows the hand signals and he's able to quickly and easily improvise tactics using standard issue gear(like the C4).", this is not a definition of ground skills.

{Mod SNip} I was using it in this sense - definition
n 1: a concise explanation of the meaning of a word or phrase or symbol

I also asked for examples not episode names.

You asked a question and I answered it.
If you didn't get an answer in the format you expected, this is not my fault or my problem.
{Mod Snip}
Perhaps, if you'd like to discuss this point with me, you could furnish us with YOUR definition of ground skills.
I always find people are more willing to share theirs if go first, not demand that they tell me and then complain when they do.

[Madeleine]

I think they look good in hats, Sam especially. Her eyes (which are big and pretty anyway) look bigger and prettier when she has that tin hat thing on in s1.

[Lightsabre]

There are 2 grade differences, We have Capt - Major then Lt. Col. Moving through those 2 extra grades, which can be about 8 years I think is a large step and has more responsibility and accountablity. Rank does matter.

So Carter's responsibility and accountablity is still different to Mitchell's.

Incidently, adult is considered 18 even in the US. Once you can be charged as an adult, and are given the responsibiliy as an adult - you are essentially an adult. So, the 10 year old to adult makes sense still .

You still have not explained HOW or WHY, simply stated that it is.
This frustrates me. So often you(general) simply say "This is so" and dont' explain why, even when I ask.
You have not explained how being of a higher grade and having more responsibility is relevant to the SPECIFIC point I made.
Please, do so, because currently, I cannot see where you are coming from.

He acted wrongly.

In your opinion

Yes they did... They helped them learn what was happening, and even saved Jacks life when he was caught. Therefore, it did provide and 'in'

She acted wrongly.

Jack did plan on using her

O'NEILL: Not yet, Captain? When the time comes I'll need your help getting in the front door."

I think that implies what she was going to be used for. Therefore his plan was to use Sam to get in the front door. That was the outcome. He even admits later her getting captured was the only way to get in without bloodshed.

I never said he didn't plan on using her, I said we didn't know HOW.
Also, Jack said 'probably'. His way may have been better, we'll never know.

I think the decision is one from a more educated place then Mitchell's who just took off, without any knowledge of what was going off, leaving behind the plan as if it never existed.

Umm, you mean like Sam who ran off to save someone, ignoring the fact her CO had a role for her in his plan.

He was to wait for back-up, very clear in canon. He left them in danger, very clear in canon. I admited that him being charged with providing back-up was speculation, so there was no need to bring it up.

Sam gave that order yes, we don't know that he heard it.
They were all in danger, they were in a freaking firefight.

[Uber]

The "Not yet" was answering the question before.
Teal'c: "If your are thinking about rescuing Conner..."
Jack: "Not yet."

My interpretation: Daniel and Teal'c may have thought what she did was dangerous and considered stopping her but Teal'c knew it would have been futile because Sam wasn't going to stand by and watch an innocent person being beaten to death. She wasn't running off doing something off mission. She got into Jonas and saved an innocent. That's why she was specifically there...to get to Jonas. Her method was her own but she fulfilled the spirit of the order.

The no bloodshed thing was at least a consideration. Thus the point of having Sam there to begin with. Re-watch that scene between them where Sam gets Jack to see why he needs her there.

She ran off and punched a guy. She was then captured. How is that heroic?
It's a classic case of someone acting the 'hewo'

Erm. She did it TO get captured. She killed two birds and all that. Save an innocent life and get in to Jonas. That was the objective after all.

Acting the hewo would be rushing up a hill without backup, disobeying orders and slaughtering an army of Jaffa without so much as a papercut.

[Deevil]

I think they look good in hats, Sam especially. Her eyes (which are big and pretty anyway) look bigger and prettier when she has that tin hat thing on in s1.

So true... She looks so young wearing it. But it also looked like it was attempting to eat her head - I can't say I was sorry to see the helmet go, but the caps should be used more often. They all look pretty good in hats.

No one looks better the Teal'c does in them though. He has such a variety to choose from.

[Uber]

But they are not obligated to maintain that. If they want to rewrite certain rules, they can.

There have to be some standards that they hold themselves to on some level though. When they cross their own lines, they get called on it by the fans. And the funny thing is, they know it's going to happen, yet they do it anyway.

For instance, how the heck did Walter go from a Master Sergeant in Season 8 to a Chief Master Sergeant in Season 9??? Hello?!?? Senior Master Sergeant anyone???

Further, the CMoH is a real thing. It should be given away only under the most extreme of circumstances and only after certain procedures are enacted. Otherwise, it lessens the value of the award.

[Lightsabre]

The "Not yet" was answering the question before.
Teal'c: "If your are thinking about rescuing Conner..."
Jack: "Not yet."

My interpretation: Daniel and Teal'c may have thought what she did was dangerous and considered stopping her but Teal'c knew it would have been futile because Sam wasn't going to stand by and watch an innocent person being beaten to death. She wasn't running off doing something off mission. She got into Jonas and saved an innocent. That's why she was specifically there...to get to Jonas. Her method was her own but she fulfilled the spirit of the order.

I don't recall Jack giving her an order to get close to Jonas.
She was there because she was part of SG-1.
SHe stayed there because she mouthed off to her CO and he decided to let it slide.
She WAS doing something off Mission, I don't recall their brief being to save people. Yes, it's a good thing to do, but she put her mission in jeporady to do it.

The no bloodshed thing was at least a consideration. Thus the point of having Sam there to begin with. Re-watch that scene between them where Sam gets Jack to see why he needs her there.Erm. She did it TO get captured. She killed two birds and all that. Save an innocent life and get in to Jonas. That was the objective after all.

She couldn't know that. SHe couldn't know that the guy she belted wouldn't shoot the man she was 'saving' out of spite. She didn't know she wouldn't be shot.
Further, what if Jack had decied to 'rescue' her? Then there is bloodshed.
I don't think she did it TO get captured, I think she did it and accepted that getting captured would be a result.
As I remember it, the guy she was 'saving' stayed out in the sun, so all she did was get captured.

Acting the hewo would be rushing up a hill without backup, disobeying orders and slaughtering an army of Jaffa without so much as a papercut.

Or taking a trained US Marine off guard, knocking him over with one punch and him not responding at all.

[Deevil]

You still have not explained HOW or WHY, simply stated that it is.
This frustrates me. So often you(general) simply say "This is so" and dont' explain why, even when I ask.
You have not explained how being of a higher grade and having more responsibility is relevant to the SPECIFIC point I made.
Please, do so, because currently, I cannot see where you are coming from.

I have provided much evidence as to why rank matters. In the end as a Lt. Col. you are in a position of more power; with power comes a greater level of responsibility and accountablity.

As a Capt you do not have the same levels of accountability and responsibility for your actions. Therefore it is impossible to compare their actions equally and that's why I wont even try. There actions are not equal, because their ranks, responsibilites, accountability and the situation and subsequent actions are different.

In your opinion

Obviously in my opinion, one you did agree with though.

She acted wrongly.

She acted wrongly under different circumstances. And I don't think her actions were so much wrong as they were questionable. And Daniel and Teal'c didn't either, since Teal'c could have easily subdued her.

I never said he didn't plan on using her, I said we didn't know HOW.
Also, Jack said 'probably'. His way may have been better, we'll never know.

And flying howler monkey's may cause the end of the world. It's not a question of what we will never know, that's for fanfiction - we can only go by what we have been told on screen, and what we have seen.

Umm, you mean like Sam who ran off to save someone, ignoring the fact her CO had a role for her in his plan.

You mean watching a man getting beaten to death and risking your own life to get in to see you ex-fiance to try and defuse the situation can be compared to running in the firefight, leaving your position and not waiting for required back-up?

Sam gave that order yes, we don't know that he heard it.
They were all in danger, they were in a freaking firefight.

We know that he was privy to the plan. Plans don't involve running off half-cocked in a firefight. It doesn't matter if he heard the order, it matters he didn't follow protocol. It matters that he put them in greater danger by doing so.