Who should lead SG1?(Spoilers)

[Deevil]

THere have been plot problems with a lot of S9. however, that exonerates Cameron, not condemns him.

I would agree with this if he had been introduced a season earlier and we knew him a little more and had a better bases of understanding his character. Right now his character is fragmented and contradictory and people can judge his character on this because we don't know him any better. That's the biggest issue.

I disagree here. THe military DOES put inexperienced officers in charge of operations.

Sure, but they don't take them out of their field of expertese and tell them to go forth and conquer. You wont have someone who is on air field defense suddenly becoming a air traffic controller without experience, learning and knowledge. It's kind of similar here, and for that reason it is hard for people to suspend their disbelief on this point.

Sorry, but I've pointed out 2 instances in S1 where Carter disobeyed a direct order from a superior and put her own life, and the life of her team mates in jeporady.

Can I ask you to please repeat them. I cannot remember a time where she disobeyed a direct order and put peoples life in danger, so I am curoius as to what they were.

[Lightsabre]

I would agree with this if he had been introduced a season earlier and we knew him a little more and had a better bases of understanding his character. Right now his character is fragmented and contradictory and people can judge his character on this because we don't know him any better. That's the biggest issue.

I fail to see how it's his fault tho. Bad writing is not Mitchell's fault. In fact, bad writing (And by that, I mean, Mitchell is not the only dodgy thing in S9) exonerates him. If it was JUST Mitchell, then yes, I could see your point. But it's not. He's simply symptomatic of a larger disease.

Sure, but they don't take them out of their field of expertese and tell them to go forth and conquer. You wont have someone who is on air field defense suddenly becoming a air traffic controller without experience, learning and knowledge. It's kind of similar here, and for that reason it is hard for people to suspend their disbelief on this point.

I've siad it before and I'll say it again. Mitchell cleary does have some ground skills, even if we don't know about them yet.

Can I ask you to please repeat them. I cannot remember a time where she disobeyed a direct order and put peoples life in danger, so I am curoius as to what they were.

First commandment: Refuses Jack's order to go back throught the gate, then gets herself captured when she leaves the group and assults a member of the rogue SG team.
Jack even says to Daniel and Teal'c "Why didn't you stop her".
Further, she put their lives at risk. Jonas wanted her alive. THe rest of SG-1, he'd kill. Carter gave away the fact they were on the planet.
Singularity: Goes back into the bunker with Cassie, in spite of a direct order to leave.

[Uber]

{Mod Snip}
Arguments that have been repeatedly refuted? Arguments about things that a Captain did 9 years ago that have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that a Lieutenant Colonel, in a position of authority, left top secret equipment unattended and disobeyed a direct order in the middle of a battle, right?

I didn't think so.

I'm not going to repeat what has already been said ad infinitum about her actions in Singularity, where she refused to let a terrified little girl potentially die alone and disobeyed Jack's order to return to the surface so she could comfort her, which by the way I find to be intensely heroic and selfless; but I will discuss the scenes from 1st Commandment again. Even though we've already been through this before.

But ces't la vie.

For 1st Commandment, {Mod Snip}.

First: Sam was right and O'Neill knew it. She presented a reasonable argument for why she needed to be there and he accepted it. So whereas she may have disobeyed his order in the most literal of senses by not saying "Yes sir" and rushing back to the DHD, she clearly did not do anything wrong as he respected her opinion, listened to her, agreed with her and let her stay.

Two: To bring up the scene where she gets herself captured in an argument about disobeying orders conveniently...if not intentionally...ignores what was happening in that moment. So let me refresh:

Sam: "Hey, look over there."
She hands the binoculars to Teal'c and gets up.
Daniel: "Whoa. Where are you going?"
Sam: "I can't just stay here and watch him beat that man to death."
Teal'c: "You will be captured."
Sam: "Uh-huh."
Daniel: "You think that's a plan."
Sam: "Daniel, I can get to Hanson, that's what the Colonel was talking about."
Daniel: "Well can you at least wait until he gets back?"
Sam: "A man could be dead by then."
She runs off. Leaving only Daniel and Teal'c left.
Daniel: "We should have stopped her."
Teal'c: "We would have failed."

I think that speaks for itself.

I really don't know what {Mod Snip}arguments back into the debate though as again, neither of these things have a thing to do with the fact that a Lieutenant Colonel in a position of authority left top secret equipment unattended and disobeyed a direct order in the middle of a battle.

[Deevil]

I fail to see how it's his fault tho. Bad writing is not Mitchell's fault. In fact, bad writing (And by that, I mean, Mitchell is not the only dodgy thing in S9) exonerates him. If it was JUST Mitchell, then yes, I could see your point. But it's not. He's simply symptomatic of a larger disease.

It doesn't matter, we only know Mitchell from season 9, and the way he has been written is the only way we can interpret him - and thus we can blame him for his actions. It doesn't matter if it can be written differently, that's the way he was written and the only thing we know of him.

This all means his personality can only be as it was presented to us in this season. People can make of it as they will.

I've siad it before and I'll say it again. Mitchell cleary does have some ground skills, even if we don't know about them yet.

If he clearly has ground skills why do people not see them? If we have not had them refered to in canon, they do not exist.

First commandment: Refuses Jack's order to go back throught the gate, then gets herself captured when she leaves the group and assults a member of the rogue SG team.
Jack even says to Daniel and Teal'c "Why didn't you stop her".
Further, she put their lives at risk. Jonas wanted her alive. THe rest of SG-1, he'd kill. Carter gave away the fact they were on the planet.

He already knew they were on the planet, planned for it even. Knew Sam would come. She put herself in danger, no one else. Jonas did not send anyone else out to find the rest of SG-1, so there lives were not in any great danger by her intial action. That being said, it is possible to see that otherwise. But with Singularity she *only* put her life in danger.

Singularity: Goes back into the bunker with Cassie, in spite of a direct order to leave.

What, and they went down after her? She once again was only going to sacrifice herself. HEr action was only going to harm herself, not her team.

Now, I ask again present me with the evidence that Sam put her team in danger by ignoring an order.

[Madeleine]

I'd say that she put her team in danger by ignoring Jack's order in First Commandment. I don't really care a great deal though - it was just a part of the story.

Sam gets a bye to the next round in First Commandment. Her totally unmilitary behaviour in ignoring that direct order got ignored. Yes it was years ago but it got ignored. That sets the show firmly in the realms of fantasy. It's still there.

I justify Sam's behaviour or I ignore it, cos it's all just made up. But what was being said earlier about suspension of disbelief is very relevant; personally I find susension of disbelief far easier when the characters or situations are ones that I like. By the time I saw First Commandment i'd already seen Serpent's Lair and Serpent's Grasp, so I was more than happy to barely notice that Sam had behaved deeply unprofessionally. She's a Hero, she gets to be unprofessional if it serves Good Drama.

I extend the same grace to Mitchell. And I fully admit that Mitchell uses it up slightly faster than Sam did in her first year, but for me, because I like them both, it's no great effort to do that for either. And I like them enought that it's in my interest to let my suspension of disbelief have a free reign.

I know that the limit for everyone's suspension of disbelief lies in a different place, but I'm sure that it's not illogical to say that "if Sam gets away with direct disobedience which wouldn't be tolerated in RL, then it must all be a bit of a fantasy and it's no great problem to me if Cam gets away with other stuff that RL wouldn't let him."

Personally, my reason for letting Cam get away with what he does is that it's all just made up stories and I enjoy them more if I don't think too much about how millitary officers don't behave like that (or that a senator and a general wouldn't have a political spat in front of foreign diplomats, or that wormholes aren't real, or that Cassie has had a face transplant...). But if I needed another reason, I think that "Other people get away with stuff too" would be a legitimate one. *What* they get away with is a question of scale of course, but the principle is fair enough.

(Suspension of disbelief is a funny old thing though. You never can tell when it's going to desert you. I can watch Teyla for twenty minutes, fully accepting her as a hybrid of mostly human and a dash of weird insectey thing, living in a distant galaxy and nipping about in a spaceship shaped like a Renault Clio with a pair of floats stuck on, but then I see her off-world with loose hair and that I CANNOT BELIEVE AT ALL! and I huffily start to read the paper instead )

[Lightsabre]

{Mod Snip}

Arguments that have been repeatedly refuted?

NO they weren't. {Mod Snip} as to why they weren't bad or why it was ok.
That is not refuting.

Arguments about things that a Captain did 9 years ago that have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that a Lieutenant Colonel, in a position of authority, left top secret equipment unattended and disobeyed a direct order in the middle of a battle, right?

THey point out exactly what adal was saying. Mitchell did what he did, but Carter has also 'sinned', yet no one condemns her.
I find that interesting.

I didn't think so.

Umm, what?

I'm not going to repeat what has already been said ad infinitum about her actions in Singularity, where she refused to let a terrified little girl potentially die alone and disobeyed Jack's order to return to the surface so she could comfort her, which by the way I find to be intensely heroic and selfless;

But you did.
It may be heroic and selfless, but she also disobeyed a direct order from her superior.
She acted the hero and put herself in danger.
What if Jack or Daniel had gone down to get her? IF Cassie really had blown, they all would be dead.

but I will discuss the scenes from 1st Commandment again. Even though we've already been through this before.

But ces't la vie.

For 1st Commandment, {Mod Snip}

First: Sam was right and O'Neill knew it. She presented a reasonable argument for why she needed to be there and he accepted it. So whereas she may have disobeyed his order in the most literal of senses by not saying "Yes sir" and rushing back to the DHD, she clearly did not do anything wrong as he respected her opinion, listened to her, agreed with her and let her stay.

Wrong.
He told her to do something. She said NO.
Then she presented her argument, and TOLD her superior officer that no matter what he said, she would not leave.
THAT is pure insubordination.
And given the MASSIVE personal conflict involved, Jack was RIGHT to send her back.
He may have accepted her arguement, it's irrelevant. The way she acted showed disrespect for the chain of command.

Two: To bring up the scene where she gets herself captured in an argument about disobeying orders conveniently...if not intentionally...ignores what was happening in that moment. So let me refresh:

Sam: "Hey, look over there."
She hands the binoculars to Teal'c and gets up.
Daniel: "Whoa. Where are you going?"
Sam: "I can't just stay here and watch him beat that man to death."
Teal'c: "You will be captured."
Sam: "Uh-huh."
Daniel: "You think that's a plan."
Sam: "Daniel, I can get to Hanson, that's what the Colonel was talking about."
Daniel: "Well can you at least wait until he gets back?"
Sam: "A man could be dead by then."
She runs off. Leaving only Daniel and Teal'c left.
Daniel: "We should have stopped her."
Teal'c: "We would have failed."

I think that speaks for itself.

Yup, that she was gonna do it, no matter how stupid it was.
Hmm, this sounds familiar.
In no way does Daniel or Teal'c's inability to stop her make her actions correct or right. She put their lives at risk as well as her own.
{Mod Snip}

I really don't know what {Mod Snip}arguments back into the debate though as again, neither of these things have a thing to do with the fact that a Lieutenant Colonel in a position of authority left top secret equipment unattended and disobeyed a direct order in the middle of a battle.

Exactly my point.
Both Sam and Jack have disobeyed orders in the past, yet I don't see the condemnation that they are 'bad' officers that I do for Mitchell
adal brought this up, this is acceptable rebuttal.

[Lightsabre]

He already knew they were on the planet, planned for it even. Knew Sam would come. She put herself in danger, no one else. Jonas did not send anyone else out to find the rest of SG-1, so there lives were not in any great danger by her intial action.

He thought they would send SG-1, he didn't know they would come, nor did he know that they were there.
Sam gave him that information, which put her team in danger.

What, and they went down after her? She once again was only going to sacrifice herself. HEr action was only going to harm herself, not her team.

Yes, becuase if I was a military leader and one member of a four man team was found, I wouldn't look for the other 3, I'd just leave them alone.
(that was sarcasm).
By revealing herself, she put the rest of the team at risk.
Also, Jack TOLD her he had a plan, she disregarded that and might have screwed up his plan.
She did NOT only risk herself.

Now, I ask again present me with the evidence that Sam put her team in danger by ignoring an order.

Done.

[Deevil]

Okay, let me present a possibility as to why Mitchell actions can be seperated from Sam and Jack's actions. We know Sam and Jack, they are characters even if we didn't instantly connect with, we did connect with them. They were almost instantly humanised pass the exhuberance or the intelligence, or the sarcastic humour.

Mitchell, even though it has been attempted, is still nothing beyond Lt. Col. Mitchell. You know he likes what he does, but he seems to only be what he does. He doesn't seem to have anything resembling a personal stake with going through the Stargate which makes it hard to understand why he does what he does.

As a character he is all over the place (I don't mind that too be honest), and it can quite easily make people question his actions more. Add to that he is a green rookie who came in, apparently (though to evidence seems not to be there) to command over 3 very experienced people and doesn't listen to their advice. He reacts, he doesn't act; this does not always sit right.

It's partly accepting what the characters are doing, but it's understanding motivation. With Mitchell oft times the motivation is "Cool, let's go knock on the door of the troll, see if he likes meat. It sounds great. WooHoo, to troll land", and it just sometimes for some, doesn't work.

Some can rationalise it, but not all can.

[Deevil]

Yes, becuase if I was a military leader and one member of a four man team was found, I wouldn't look for the other 3, I'd just leave them alone.
(that was sarcasm).
By revealing herself, she put the rest of the team at risk.
Also, Jack TOLD her he had a plan, she disregarded that and might have screwed up his plan.
She did NOT only risk herself.

Perception is 9/10ths of analysing... I don't agree.

I also don't believe she put the team in danger in Singualrity. She went down in the Lift, the lift wouldn't have come up and gone back down in time to get her out - she only put herself in danger. The team was in no way going to pay in blood by her actions.

[Adal]

but I will discuss the scenes from 1st Commandment again. Even though we've already been through this before.

But ces't la vie.

For 1st Commandment, {Mod Snip}

First: Sam was right and O'Neill knew it. She presented a reasonable argument for why she needed to be there and he accepted it. So whereas she may have disobeyed his order in the most literal of senses by not saying "Yes sir" and rushing back to the DHD, she clearly did not do anything wrong as he respected her opinion, listened to her, agreed with her and let her stay.

Wrong.
He told her to do something. She said NO.
Then she presented her argument, and TOLD her superior officer that no matter what he said, she would not leave.
THAT is pure insubordination.
And given the MASSIVE personal conflict involved, Jack was RIGHT to send her back.
He may have accepted her arguement, it's irrelevant. The way she acted showed disrespect for the chain of command.

First of all I will request you stop using my name and posts out of context trying to justify your opinion.

{Mod Snip}
I happen to disagree with a lot of your recent posts but I'll deal with the above bit first. ÜberSG-1Fan is correct.

As second in command Carter had a duty to make sure that O'Neill had all relevant information when making a decision and to offer alternative actions. In this case it was not insubordinate to say "No Sir" as Carter did. If, after Carter had spoken up, O'Neill had again ordered her back through the gate then THAT would have been disobeying orders. I fail to see how Carter doing her duty is disrespecting the chain of command.

[scarimor]

I'd say that she put her team in danger by ignoring Jack's order in First Commandment. I don't really care a great deal though - it was just a part of the story.

And she was a young Captain. Cameron's a Lt. Colonel. It's more problematic for Cameron who is supposed to be in a position of responsibility. That's where I struggle with the suspension of disbelief thing. It's right at the core of this thread, in fact: the leadership issue.

(Suspension of disbelief is a funny old thing though. You never can tell when it's going to desert you. I can watch Teyla for twenty minutes, fully accepting her as a hybrid of mostly human and a dash of weird insectey thing, living in a distant galaxy and nipping about in a spaceship shaped like a Renault Clio with a pair of floats stuck on, but then I see her off-world with loose hair and that I CANNOT BELIEVE AT ALL! and I huffily start to read the paper instead )

I am so glad I'm not the only one! (I don't grab the paper though - I go off and grab Rice Crispies )

[MB.Eddie]

I think Mitchell should lead SG1. He has had plenty of experience leading when he was a fighter pilot, and has done a good job with the team so far.

[Adal]

I think Mitchell should lead SG1. He has had plenty of experience leading when he was a fighter pilot, and has done a good job with the team so far.

Unfortunately leading a fighter squadron does not give you all the necessary skills to lead a ground team that goes to other planets. I happen to disagree with you, I happen to think he has done an extremely poor job in season 9.

[scarimor]

Cameron came back into his own when he was leading Blue Squadron again in Ethon. It was a marked contrast.

[Deevil]

I want to know one thing, because we seem to jump about this in this thread. Does any real life military protocols come into play in this debate, or do we solely base our opinions on the protocols that have been indentified and set in the SG universe?

And she was a young Captain. Cameron's a Lt. Colonel. It's more problematic for Cameron who is supposed to be in a position of responsibility. That's where I struggle with the suspension of disbelief thing. It's right at the core of this thread, in fact: the leadership issue.

I think the difference in rank, and the relative 'newness' of stargate travel somewhat make the arguments between what Sam did in early seasons, as opposed to what Mitchell did in S9, with 8 years of mission reports and notes he had read while in hospital somewhat incomparable. I would have assumed that those reports would have made him more pragmatic in the decisions that he made.