Who should lead SG1?(Spoilers)

[RyantheGreat]

i disagree. just because he was told when he was the only team member that he was to lead the team because he had no team, that does not mean that he maintains the leadership.

Actually, until they say otherwise on screen, how can it mean anything else?

had carter been there when mitchell got there, who would have led? its reasonable to assume that when carter returns, the original posting is then implemented. its also reasonable to assume that they are assigned as co-leaders (even though it doesn't happen usually), and its also reasonable to assume that mitchells leadership posting stands.

The problem here is, you're making assumptions... all of what you say is possible, but there's nothing on screen to back it up. Why not just as easily assume that Carter said... "Cam, it's your team. I'll help you as I can, and of course, I plan on doing all things technological, but it's your team, and you're in charge."

This assumption is just as valid as yours. Until TPTB state othewise, we can only go with what has previously been established, which is that Mitchell is in charge of SG1. He could pick his team. He picked Carter, she said no. Then she said yes.

its not been stated exactly what position carter holds on the team, but it doesn't make much sense to have her be 2IC on a team that she led for at least a year, very well i might add. it also doesn't seem to be a case that mitchell is her 2IC based on his attitude, and the fact that he was given leadership when there was no team, so it wouldn't be fair to take it away like that, so for me the logical conclusion is co-leadership. both of them are leaders, one because she should be ( ) and the other because he got there at the right time ( )

It would make sense if Carter's emphasis is going to be on science and technology. I agree there's been written some sort of "co-leadership" but this would be a strictly informal arrangement, as there's not much precedent, militarily speaking.

[RyantheGreat]

But even in this senario we are left with the question of who is the 'one the paper' leader. Because lets remember in Avalon when Mitchell was given the command, he still wanted to be on the team *under* and I want to ephasise under the command of Carter. So is it not possible that he did step down? We have nothing to prove that he did or didn't mind you, but we have no knowledge of the command structure of SG-1 since Carter's return either... It's up to us to decide as we will.

Anything is possible, and naturally, people can decide to believe whatever they want, but since Canon is strictly what has been shown, we can only believe that canon is that Mitchell is team leader, as nothing has been stated or shown contrary, despite Carter's return.

[RyantheGreat]

Oh goodie...another trekker like moi.

True...Spock was the Captain of the Enterprise...however, it was essentially understood that it was only while Kirk wasn't there. And if you also will recall, it was a set up from the first movie that Kirk wasn't happy as an Admiral (Decker certainly felt it), he missed the Enterprise and his actions in TSFS and TVH made it so that he could once again be the official Captain of the Enterprise...his rightful place. Kirk wasn't an interloper. He wasn't a newcomer. He was the Captain of the Enterprise.

So, after being in command and leaving for awhile (Sam), someone else held the position temporarily (Mitchell); but it was always his place and the dynamic always played out so that he was the one in command. So as it is in SG-1...Mitchell may be the leader of record and can scream it from the rooftops that he is SG-1 Leader, but the sense to me and many MANY others is that it doesn't fit because it's Sam's rightful position. It's like Kirk serving on the Enterprise with someone else in command. It doesn't work.

It works if Starfleet Command says it works. You play by their rules, or you don't play. The same is true with the SGC...

Otherwise, yeah, I agree with a lot of what you said, and I'm a closet trekker now... you understand, I'm sure?

Also, Trek speak, alot of Spock's subordinate role to Kirk may have had a lot to do with his "faulty" memory after his resurrection. It was at the end of TVH that Kirk was given command, after all.

[RyantheGreat]

In keeping with the argument that unless something is clearly stated it is not canon - I have never ever heard anyone state that Carter came back as 2IC of SG1 - she reports directly to Landry and until I hear otherwise from someone in the show (to contradict what one of the executive producers has said was decided by TPTB as a whole before S9 even started) Carter and Mitchell are co-leading SG1 (which has also been made clear to me throught he writing and actions of the show), Carter is not 2IC of SG1 and Carter reports directly to Landry. Percpetion and interpretation of what these clowns have written can go one of 3 ways and we have people who believe each of the 3 scenarios: (1) co-leaders, (2) Carter is leader, (3) mitchell is leader. Then of course there is the majority on this poll who believe that Carter SHOULD be leading SG1 regardless.

Canon states that Mitchell is in charge. It does not state coleadership. Anything else is an assumption. She reports directly to Landry the same way she reported to Hammond under Jack... it's a joint briefing, as it has always been.

Again, you cannot have a chain of command that has co-leaders. Not officially, any way.

[ParadoxRealities]

...we can only go with what has previously been established, which is that Mitchell is in charge of SG1. He could pick his team. He picked Carter, she said no. Then she said yes.

The thing that gets me about this is that canon doesn't actually say that. Canon says the original SG-1 disbanded. Mitchell was put in charge of the new SG-1 team. Dr. Jackson, Col. Carter, and Teal'c temporarily came back. then they rejoined the team. canon doesn't say nothing happened in between the temporary assignment and the team coming back together. It doesn't say that anything did either. however, to say that nothing did is still an assumption (in my books), because it was not specifically stated in canon.
so, do I make sense or just an a** of myself?

[Uber]

It works if Starfleet Command says it works. You play by their rules, or you don't play. The same is true with the SGC...

Otherwise, yeah, I agree with a lot of what you said, and I'm a closet trekker now... you understand, I'm sure?

Also, Trek speak, alot of Spock's subordinate role to Kirk may have had a lot to do with his "faulty" memory after his resurrection. It was at the end of TVH that Kirk was given command, after all.

Tis true. I won't call you out of the closet if you protect me too. I LIVE IN HOPE!!!

Back to the analogy though, could you ever fathom a scenario where Spock would ever have been in command of Kirk? I can't. It was always Kirk.

The analogy is indeed faulty though as it's not as though one of them came in and usurped the command of the other. They were both on from the beginning and the dynamic was established with Kirk in charge and Spock as his 2IC.

With SG-1 however, we do have the established dynamic, the Carter character in command of the team canonly in Season 8 and a new guy coming in to take over due to an ever so convient plot device.

The Trek tie in only comes into play when one imagines the dynamic of the team (or in their case the crew) and how it would have been irrevocably altered had they set it so that Kirk was serving under Spock. Or Sulu. Or Chekov. Or, to stay more in tune with the SG-1 situation, some new way cool commanding officer we've never heard of.

For SG-1, it was Carter in command. She did her time serving as a 2IC and then moved up in the ranks to a command position...which as a career officer makes perfect sense. But then for this new person with zero experience to come in...not just as a member of the team but rather to take the leadership position? The one that most naturally goes to Carter, the one who's been training for it for almost a decade? It just seems...off.

As a result, the show doesn't make sense. The team dynamic doesn't gel and the vibe of the show falters.

Welcome to Season 9.

[RyantheGreat]

Much as I would like to green you, I can't yet.

Lovely comparison between the situations regarding Sam and Kirk.

I'll do it for you. It's not a half bad comparison..

[RyantheGreat]

Tis true. I won't call you out of the closet if you protect me too. I LIVE IN HOPE!!!

Back to the analogy though, could you ever fathom a scenario where Spock would ever have been in command of Kirk? I can't. It was always Kirk.

The analogy is indeed faulty though as it's not as though one of them came in and usurped the command of the other. They were both on from the beginning and the dynamic was established with Kirk in charge and Spock as his 2IC.

With SG-1 however, we do have the established dynamic, the Carter character in command of the team canonly in Season 8 and a new guy coming in to take over due to an ever so convient plot device.

The Trek tie in only comes into play when one imagines the dynamic of the team (or in their case the crew) and how it would have been irrevocably altered had they set it so that Kirk was serving under Spock. Or Sulu. Or Chekov. For SG-1, it was Carter in command. She did her time serving as a 2IC and then moved up in the ranks to a command position...which as a career officer makes perfect sense. But then for this new person with zero experience to come in...not just as a member of the team but rather to take the leadership position? The one that most naturally goes to Carter, the one who's been training for it for almost a decade? It just seems...off.

As a result, the show doesn't make sense. The team dynamic doesn't gel and the vibe of the show falters.

Welcome to Season 9.

Of course, from a general standpoint, there couldn't be a scenario when Spock assumed full leadership from Kirk (although there were situations, you may recall, where Spock did have to relieve Kirk of command), but then, that's just the way it was written, the way we enjoyed it, the way it had always been...

If we follow Canon, hours would be days, and days would be weeks... heh..

But anyway, canon had Sam in charge in S8, no doubt. But in S9 they put Mitchell in charge, with Sam gone. Sam returned, obviously, but there has been nothing on air, and thus, nothing canon, to assume leadership has reverted from Cam to Sam.

If you use your Trek analogy that when Kirk returned Spock stepped aside, the problems there are, one: Spock had half a mind, and Kirk was given Enterprise by SFC. Secondly, Spock hadn't had Enterprise as long as Kirk.

Carter had SG1 for a season, Kirk had SG1 for years. The analogy fails. This would be a better one:

Jack O'Niell is demoted for stealing the Odyssy to rescue Daniel. He's made Lt. Colonel, which is where he's excelled... He's also put back on SG1 (Mitchell takes a hike.)

Now who's in charge? O'Niell or Carter? Carter's gained a full year more experience while Jack's been in DC, so, following the experience theory, wouldn't she retain command? But if you follow the dynamic theory, the what the viewers want to see theory, it has to be Jack.

So it comes down to this. Do you want TPTB to write what you want to see, namely Carter in charge? Or do you want them to write the stories they want to write, the stories that have entertained for the past nine years?

[RyantheGreat]

The thing that gets me about this is that canon doesn't actually say that. Canon says the original SG-1 disbanded. Mitchell was put in charge of the new SG-1 team. Dr. Jackson, Col. Carter, and Teal'c temporarily came back. then they rejoined the team. canon doesn't say nothing happened in between the temporary assignment and the team coming back together. It doesn't say that anything did either. however, to say that nothing did is still an assumption (in my books), because it was not specifically stated in canon.
so, do I make sense or just an a** of myself?

Saying nothing happened is still the safer assumption than assuming something did.

We can only go by the most recent canon, which has Mitchell in charge.

If you're an a**, then we're all a**es, and my how this place must smell!

[binkpmmc]

Canon states that Mitchell is in charge. It does not state coleadership. Anything else is an assumption. She reports directly to Landry the same way she reported to Hammond under Jack... it's a joint briefing, as it has always been.

Again, you cannot have a chain of command that has co-leaders. Not officially, any way.

Carter always reported to O'Neill - not to Hammond

[ParadoxRealities]

Saying nothing happened is still the safer assumption than assuming something did.

We can only go by the most recent canon, which has Mitchell in charge.

If you're an a**, then we're all a**es, and my how this place must smell!

indeed it is, but its still an assumption. and (completly from my POV), the more subjective canon (ie who makes what calls) shows that they are probably co-leading. completely my opinion, but that's where I'm coming from (like you (anyone) care)

[STARGATE7777]

I just think that TPTB thought that Mitchell was going to become part of the team and blow us all away. Robert Cooper described Mitchell's character as "Jack O'Neill ten years younger." I don't think it ever crossed their minds that there would be a controversy. I mean, did we ever question Jack in his leadership role? What they forgot is that people are not interchangeable. Perception of leadership is as much about attitude and character as it is rank. Mitchell, to me doesn't ACT like a leader therefore he is not perceived as the leader. I don't care what lines the character is given. Did the writers ever have to explain about Jack for us to see him as the leader. No, he showed us in each and every episode in his actions. In my opinion, bad job all round in convincing us.

[binkpmmc]

For good measure I went back and found the quote from Mallozzi:

"In the writers room, we did debate the whole leadership issue and eventually compormised, deciding on a co-leadership."

As often as someone says mitchell is leader I SEE Carter leading SG1 more of then than I SEE mitchell leading it. Until there is canon that there is no co-leadership, something the PTB clearly intended since it was a joint decision in the "writers room" I see co-leaders (and more than that mitchell just isn't believable as leader for all the reasons previously stated).

[chocdoc]

So it comes down to this. Do you want TPTB to write what you want to see, namely Carter in charge? Or do you want them to write the stories they want to write, the stories that have entertained for the past nine years?

I was entertained in seasons 1-8, but not at all in season 9. So, I want them to write what I want to see---carter in charge for season 10 (or at least some reasonable resolution to this leadership mess that is honorable to both Sam and Mitchell). The team dynamic is a mess in season 9, unlike the first 8 seasons. Why mess with something that was working for the general viewing audience for 8 seasons?

[Deevil]

Anything is possible, and naturally, people can decide to believe whatever they want, but since Canon is strictly what has been shown, we can only believe that canon is that Mitchell is team leader, as nothing has been stated or shown contrary, despite Carter's return.

But you see, Mitchell after he was given command in Avalon was still quite sure he wanted to work under Lt. Col. Sam Carter. He wanted to work under the best. So here's the thing, Sam returns with more gate experience whatever and Mitchell and Landry talk and he graciously steps out of the way. Could that have happened? Sure it could of, did it? Who knows, a lot happens off camera.

But here's the deal, since Sam's return Mitchell has never been refered to as the 'leader' or 'CO' of SG-1, neither has Sam. This could simply be an oversight, or it is the fact that there are no strict leaders - but rather a co-command senrario in which the person with the most expereince/knows what to do goes a head and does it.

I agree with what someone said (sorry, I ahve forgotten names), I have seen Sam assume more of a leadership role then Mitchell. This isn't a bad thing, I just think Mitchell is out of his element at the moment, and hopefully in season 10 will be more comfortable and at home. I just would like to see it addressed in Cannon that's all.

As for the impossibility of having a chain of command that has co-leaders, I want to know why? The SGC is not a typical military operation. They live in a highly volatile place and the command structure is always being compromised, why would co-command compromise it any further. This is a television show, and as long as the fans buy it (and many have despite of individuals opinions) that's all that matters. It doesn't have to be true to form, it just has to be true enough.

But to be honest, I don't have a problem with Mitchell in co-command, I'm convinced he will be able to handle it. That's enough for me. Some are, and some aren't. It's personal preference. And I think it does make sense.

But here's what we know.

- Mitchell came to the SGC assuming he'll be under command of Lt. Col. Carter. This is interesting because it assumes that Mitchell did not have seniority over Carter, and thus they are either on a completely level playing ground, or he was promoted later.

- Carter was transfered to Area 51, Daniel was going to Atlantis and Teal'c was with the new Free Jaffa council. SG-1 was disbanded.

- Mitchell was put in charge of SG-1 and asked to pick out a team.

- Mitchell asked Sam to return, she was on the Promtheus and had her own things happening. Said world needed saving she would return.

- Daniel was done, as was Teal'c.

blah blah blah

- Mitchell doesn't pick a team, but he seems to 'team up' with Daniel and Teal'c. They do their thing till they need Sam back.

- Sam returns, does her thing. Is asked to return to the still defunked SG-1 (as no one except Mitchell is on the team).

- Next episode Mitchell hands out badges so we assume SG-1 is back in business, which it hadn't been for the 6 episodes previously.

So now that SG-1 is reformed, and not by Mitchell but by circumstance, where does this leave the command of SG-1? Because we have know acknowledgement of either Sam or Cam being the sole leaders of the team. None what-so-ever.