Is Gerak's Actions like a True Jaffa?

[PG15]

While I would agree with the possiblity of the Jaffa Society leaning towards an authoritarian measure of governance after being persuaded to follow a traditional hierarchacal standard in line with that of the "old ways", its still a hard sell to convince the fans that such a supposed wise Jaffa Elder would so readily acquiesce to the Ori after just winning their freedom back from forced servitude and slavery spanning several thousands of years....no matter what the reason...religion, money, sex, the promise of Ascension.

No one said anything about wise. Gerak is a politician, in that he will rather protect his own bones than really sacrifice himself. He just so happens to have the ability to convince others of following him.

Also, I think the promise of Ascension is pretty big a prize, that's like saying to a Christian that they have a chance of meeting God without dying or something.

If an Elder's strenths and attributes are a product of the behavioral traits and values the Jaffa Culture espouses, then it would stand to reason that Gerak's Actions should have been more in alignment with that of caution, skepticism, & courage when meeting with the Prior of the ORi.

Ah, but IMHO instinct will always superceed heritage in the direst of times, such as when a powerful (very powerful) new enemy is on your doorstep, and has already destroyed a few Jaffa worlds.

Also, he did show hints of those attributes, and eventually backed down from blowing up Teal'c and Co.

It would have been more credible to see a fracturing of the JFN and subsequent Civil War based upon internal political strife: Mining Colonies under JFN Control and having substantial human societies form their own alliance, or Jaffa Worlds not willing to give up their old ways turn against the Council.

Well, we don't have much time for that, and apparently, neither did Gerak. The arrival of the Prior to the time when he became one himself wasn't much. For all we know that Civil War stuff could be coming up (probably not though).

Also, Priors are appearing everywhere. One of the people who would turn against the council because they did not want to give in to the Ori could easily have met a Prior soon afterwards and got converted/destroyed.

Its just lookin like this whole thing is just an excuse to cause a JFN Civil War and get Teal'c more involved with his own people while at the same time neatly tie in the Ori threat.

Nothing wrong with that.

[shiznaw]

No one said anything about wise. Gerak is a politician, in that he will rather protect his own bones than really sacrifice himself. He just so happens to have the ability to convince others of following him.

Wise
First off, the values and beliefs the culture espouses is different from that of ours. Being wise is an inextricable part of being a JAffa Elder. In such a hostile and warrior laden environment where honor and death are synonomous (sp?), it was with wisdom (and a little luck) does any warrior live to be such a ripe old age. As a result all jaffa who reach such Honorable Status are Wise, in thier own right. If you don't gain wisdom and insight as you become older while warring throughout the Galaxy, then most likely, you won't be around long.

Politicians are like that Everywhere Syndrome
The Political Climate on Earth is not that like of the Jaffa Nation. Matter of fact, its totally opposite. Nearly, 75% of our Congressman are Lawyers or former Lawyers, which means that they are professional "story-benders / debaters" with no other formal discipline from which to draw upon, unless you speak of limited few coming from a different walk of life, such as those Veterans with actual war-time experience. Its almost with absolute certainty that one must be rich, well-connected, or at least an capitalist turned opportunist before even being considered to run by a bi-party system. So the majority of these lawyers are well adept in their craft of debating, but with no noble cause except to represent their constiuents. This makes for a weak case, as many of the wealthy elite can't even begin to understand the complex needs of the populous or even how to address them. Within the professional political arena, lobbyists, special interest groups, private contractors all play apart in the digression of a politician's effectiveness.

But that's only on Earth. In the Jaffa Society where military duty is compulsory, staying alive is a personal goal, and self-discipline is more a survival tool than a trait, A JAffa surviving long enough to reach Elder Status whose turned Politician has more individual worth than half of Congress put together. The wisdom and discipline Gerak had gained while rising through the ranks would NOT have been LOST just because he had become the defacto head of the Ruling Council.

So, to explain away Gerak's apparent odd behavior as just being another politician because that's the way they all are across the entire Galaxy doesn't make sense.

Also, I think the promise of Ascension is pretty big a prize, that's like saying to a Christian that they have a chance of meeting God without dying or something.

Umm, Ascension is, indeed, a pretty big prize. But it's that's not to say that Gerak values Ascension more than, lets say, peace and stability across the JFN just after fighting one of the most bloodiest Rebellions their people had ever known. Anyone who had watched SG since episode 1 would recognize that what just happened at the end of Season 8 was UNTHINKABLE at one time. This wasn't just a Rebellion....I guess a freaking Revolution would be more fitting. Given the complexity of what just happened, it would have only made sense for the Council, including Gerak, to concentrate on "reconstructing" the Nation, rather than seeking out a new religion after just tasting their own freedom only 10 episodes ago.

Ah, but IMHO instinct will always superceed heritage in the direst of times, such as when a powerful (very powerful) new enemy is on your doorstep, and has already destroyed a few Jaffa worlds.

I think the Ori has only destroyed one world at this point, and invaded several others; nevertheless, the Jaffa that was portrayed, especially in the First Season, are not afraid of any New Enemy. In the beginning of SG, the Jaffa were depicted as almost "fanatical", regardless of their foe.

Also, he did show hints of those attributes, and eventually backed down from blowing up Teal'c and Co.

I suspect by not blowing up Tealc, Bretak, & Company, Gerak should be considered as in a state of "wavering values". Again, the 3 episodes showing Gerak is hardly enough for us(the audience) to buy into his growing "internal conflict" scheme and show empathy.

Well, we don't have much time for that, and apparently, neither did Gerak. The arrival of the Prior to the time when he became one himself wasn't much. For all we know that Civil War stuff could be coming up (probably not though).

Instead of "coming up", by all intents & purposes, the episodes that chronicle the "Civil War" stuff should be already here.
----embattled dissident

[PG15]

Wise
First off, the values and beliefs the culture espouses is different from that of ours. Being wise is an inextricable part of being a JAffa Elder. In such a hostile and warrior laden environment where honor and death are synonomous (sp?), it was with wisdom (and a little luck) does any warrior live to be such a ripe old age. As a result all jaffa who reach such Honorable Status are Wise, in thier own right. If you don't gain wisdom and insight as you become older while warring throughout the Galaxy, then most likely, you won't be around long.

Does cunning count as wise?

Politicians are like that Everywhere Syndrome
The Political Climate on Earth is not that like of the Jaffa Nation. Matter of fact, its totally opposite. Nearly, 75% of our Congressman are Lawyers or former Lawyers, which means that they are professional "story-benders / debaters" with no other formal discipline from which to draw upon, unless you speak of limited few coming from a different walk of life, such as those Veterans with actual war-time experience. Its almost with absolute certainty that one must be rich, well-connected, or at least an capitalist turned opportunist before even being considered to run by a bi-party system. So the majority of these lawyers are well adept in their craft of debating, but with no noble cause except to represent their constiuents. This makes for a weak case, as many of the wealthy elite can't even begin to understand the complex needs of the populous or even how to address them. Within the professional political arena, lobbyists, special interest groups, private contractors all play apart in the digression of a politician's effectiveness.

But that's only on Earth. In the Jaffa Society where military duty is compulsory, staying alive is a personal goal, and self-discipline is more a survival tool than a trait, A JAffa surviving long enough to reach Elder Status whose turned Politician has more individual worth than half of Congress put together. The wisdom and discipline Gerak had gained while rising through the ranks would NOT have been LOST just because he had become the defacto head of the Ruling Council.

Hmm...I see it as being relatively simple.

He has his own interests, which others disagree with. If he thinks he himself is wise, then he'll convince himself that what he wants to do is right. Therefore, in order to not make enemies of those that disagree with him, he makes up some BS reason to counter them.

Basically, he believes whatever he is doing is the right thing to do, and many politicians exhibit that, and would bend the truth to have their way.

Umm, Ascension is, indeed, a pretty big prize. But it's that's not to say that Gerak values Ascension more than, lets say, peace and stability across the JFN just after fighting one of the most bloodiest Rebellions their people had ever known.

I wouldn't be so sure. The Jaffa had known of Kheb and the Ancients for quite sometime now last I checked, so if Gerak was offered the prize of enlightenment, along with the rest of the Jaffa Nation, why not follow along?

Again, it's the "I think I'm right therefore everyone else should follow" routein, which is prevalent in many, many people. For all he knows, enlightenment could bring about the peace and stability he so badly wants.

Anyone who had watched SG since episode 1 would recognize that what just happened at the end of Season 8 was UNTHINKABLE at one time. This wasn't just a Rebellion....I guess a freaking Revolution would be more fitting. Given the complexity of what just happened, it would have only made sense for the Council, including Gerak, to concentrate on "reconstructing" the Nation, rather than seeking out a new religion after just tasting their own freedom only 10 episodes ago.

Can't they do both at the same time?

I think the Ori has only destroyed one world at this point, and invaded several others;

No, at least 2 at the moment. We had a witness from a planet destruction in Babylon.

nevertheless, the Jaffa that was portrayed, especially in the First Season, are not afraid of any New Enemy. In the beginning of SG, the Jaffa were depicted as almost "fanatical", regardless of their foe.

Things change.

I suspect by not blowing up Tealc, Bretak, & Company, Gerak should be considered as in a state of "wavering values". Again, the 3 episodes showing Gerak is hardly enough for us(the audience) to buy into his growing "internal conflict" scheme and show empathy.

Agreed. They should've kept Gerak "unpriored" for at least the whole season.

Instead of "coming up", by all intents & purposes, the episodes that chronicle the "Civil War" stuff should be already here.
----embattled dissident

Why? They rebellion itself took at least 8 years to come to fruition, how can a similar "rebelling against the high council" take only...10 episodes to begin?

[WraithWarrior]

Gerak cannot be a true and loyal Jaffa because the Jaffa have been released from their grip by the Gou'ald and if he was a true Jaffa, he wud believe that all Jaffa should be free and not start to worship the Ori in The Fourth Horseman Part 1. He would know that the Jaffa do not want to be enslaved by another race

[shiznaw]

Does cunning count as wise?

I believe that Gerak is, indeed, cunning. Any warrior who has won the hearts and minds of the populous as well as the battles that he led must be resourceful, to say the least. Nonetheless, it is wisdom that allows a reverent warrior to rise to the occasion of becoming a leader, regardless of his societal status.

his own interests, whicr disagree with. If he thinks he himself is wise, then he'll convince himself that what he wants to do is right. Therefore, in order to not make enemies of those that disagree with him, he makes up some BS reason to counter them.

I have a serious problem with this supposition. First, you again make this presumption based upon the sensibilities of the values and beliefs of a person raised here in our society.

Never in any episode prior to the ones recording Gerak's actions, has a Jaffa Leader of such esteem "convinced himself", out of self-interest, to force his own people in a type of religious servitude...or any other type of servitude for that matter.

No Jaffa displaying that much cunning or wisdom would ever subject his people to chose between forced worship or death out of selfishness. Again, self-interests and desires like achieving "ascension" are probably common place among their people; however, such a trait has never been shown to outweigh the betterment for the greater good

Basically, he believes whatever he is doing is the right thing to do, and many politicians exhibit that, and would bend the truth to have their way.

Again, I have serious problems with your conclusion. After watching the latest episode, "The 4th Hrsman, part II", it would appear that Gerak realized he was wrong after Teal'c forced him to make a choice on the planet's surface. The problem lies in the fact that Gerak suddenly had a change of heart in this episode after a brief fadeout upon being challenged by Teal'c to take his life. What Teal'c and Company had been trying to do for 3 Episodes has been accomplished in 1 by issuing an ultimatum.

If the writers wanted us to see Gerak's consciousness work against his actions and have us empathize with his internal struggle juxtaposing his desire for "immortality for him and his people" against "religious servitude", then they should have focused more on his frailty and moral dilimma(sp?) for us to buy into the whole "internal struggle" thing.

HE certainly wasn't bending the truth, but rather displayed callousness when confronted with the horrible atrocities the Ori have committed against his people in the previous Episode.
Brainwashing and self-induced fullfiling prophesies takes time to develop. Such human-like struggles are used to being played out over time and some damn good acting. Gerak didn't totally meet that standard.

I wouldn't be so sure. The Jaffa had known of Kheb and the Ancients for quite sometime now last I checked, so if Gerak was offered the prize of enlightenment, along with the rest of the Jaffa Nation, why not follow along?

Because the prize was at too heavy of a price. I've been typing for several hours trying to lay down a structured argument as to why Gerak would have seen this 2 Episodes ago before the "horseman part II".

Agreed. They should've kept Gerak "unpriored" for at least the whole season.

I'm glad we are beginning to agree.....on somethings

Why? They rebellion itself took at least 8 years to come to fruition, how can a similar "rebelling against the high council" take only...10 episodes to begin?

The problem is that Gerak doesn't equate to the entire Council. Even in Episode 11, we didn't get a clear picture of what the Council was thinking or the reservations they had after the display of power Gerak had presented during his argument. Jaffa are a Type A People. Just because someone says, "jump" doesn't mean another will say, "how high". A better direction would have been allowing the audience to see how the Council was split and why. This would lead to a better understanding whether Teal'c let a Rebellion against Gerak & Much of the Council or The Council with Gerak as Supreme "Mason/Shriner"

[PG15]

Ok, that's it.

Let me just say that, I've never been on a debate team, and if I ever did, I would've been the guy at the back yelling obscenties. What you're talking about here is waaaay deeper than I've ever tried to analyse anything. So, I think we should agree to disagree.

It's been fun.

EDIT: Just to add why I think this argument is gonna go on forever: I'm of the opinion that the Jaffa are not a uniform people where everyone is more or less the same. It's possible that every Jaffa we've seen thus far seem to support the opposite point, but I just can't bring myself to believe in a culture that is like that, and because of this, I doubt we'll ever agree.

[Merlin_Ancient]

Im starting to like Gerak. And i kinda felt bad for him when him and Teal'c were talking next to his dads grave stone.

[NakedJehutyV2]

actually bout 14 eps not 10

[Merlin_Ancient]

actually bout 14 eps not 10

What are you talking about.

[shiznaw]

Ok, that's it.

Let me just say that, I've never been on a debate team, and if I ever did, I would've been the guy at the back yelling obscenties.

LMAO...you and me both...damn it!

What you're talking about here is waaaay deeper than I've ever tried to analyse anything. So, I think we should agree to disagree.

Okay...okay. I agree to just disagree.

It's been fun.

EDIT: Just to add why I think this argument is gonna go on forever: I'm of the opinion that the Jaffa are not a uniform people where everyone is more or less the same.

I'm not understanding how you can't believe that the Jaffa Culture is of a very uniform and structured value system rarely changing from planet to planet throughout the Galaxy... These people have been indocturinated (sp?) to belive in their own respective God. Moreover, each has been genetically altered to act as a human incubator for Goa'uld young. The result is a religious warrior class that is complicit in its own slavery. This socio-economic class of people keeps occupied Worlds from uprising, the slave labor population busy in naquada production, engage in war to expand their God's territory, & conquer other human Worlds previously unbeknownst to the Goa'uld. And, this is done all for the sake of serving one "true" God.

In order for the Goa'uld to accomplish such an undertaking, they would have to implement a highly structured and rigid society in which freedom of thought (the right to question) & self-expression could not be possible. Basic liberties and entitlements could never be given, but would have to be earned as a positive reinforcement when doing something "right" like when Teal'c just received his own home as the First Prime to Apophis just before he turned against him.

As a secondary effect, such a rigid society would be comprised of cultural norms and values to which all JAffa could subscribe. Basic values and traits by which all "warriors" would desire to live and adhere. Honor, Loyalty, discipline, vigilance, blah, blah.....blah.

Such traits would be reinforced as characterstics of a "true" warrior and since a Jaffa's whole entire existence has been orchestrated to maintain the "status quo"; the young and resolute would want to be taught the "ways" of a "true" warrior. The Goa'uld encourages Master Jaffa like Gerak and Bretak (sp?) to develop their own styles & technique of fighting, stealth, etc., as it serves to reinforce that "true" warrior belief. Hell, I believe in one particular episode its noted that many Jaffa recognize MAster Bretak (sp?) as a teacher with his own style/philosphy of fighting developed over the years.

The end result of all of this is quite simply what's called a holistic culture versus a pluralistic one. This essentially means that the Jaffa Culture is structured in such a way that every facet of its politics, education system, social roles, and market economy is the result of a set of pre-established uniform beliefs, traits, morals, values, and behavioral & social tendancies.

Example: Think of the Soviet Union (communism & military) mixed with a complex tribal society with heavily pre-defined social roles like the Native American Tribes(men do this, women do that).....but much more technologically advanced.

It's possible that every Jaffa we've seen thus far seem to support the opposite point, but I just can't bring myself to believe in a culture that is like that, and because of this, I doubt we'll ever agree.

I want u to think this over and respond...whatever you say in response...I'll just read and let it go. In the end, I'll agree to disagree on the issue as to whether Gerak was a good character.

[PG15]

Oh what the hell, once more onto the breach.

You're making a lot of sense with the rigidity of the culture, and I can definatley agree with most of it. But there is still 1% percent of my brain that cannot (and dare I say it, will not) agree to any thought of a culture where everyone is the same, unless they are all identically made androids. This has nothing to do with the validity of your argument however, since it's sort of a personal thing.

However, and you may respond to this point if you wish (who knows, maybe we'll keep going), if the Goa'uld put in such rigid laws, then people like Teal'c and the other rebel Jaffa won't be able to think of the fact that their Gods might be false. The fact that there are Jaffa that (used to) think differently from Teal'c on this VERY IMPORTANT point, makes me think that some differ in opinion about other things too.