A tad bit disapointed (4th horseman SPOILERS)

[Comblin]

Hi there,

This is my first post ever on this board. I have been looking around for some time, but never gotten down to write something myself. But today I just had to.

I am an old fan of StarGate. I have seen the entire series from start to today. There has been really good episodes and some really bad. But in Fridays episode “The 4th horseman” tptb did screw up in my opinion.

I am not talking about the “The Ori get power from being worshipped” revelation. Anyone could see that one coming. I am talking about two other “revelations”. First that the Alterans and the Ori differed in that the Alterans preferred science while the Ori preferred religion. Second that the Ori are lying about helping their followers ascend. I have seen that some other posts has been made on these topics, but I would like to delve on them some more.

I have liked the Ori as enemies from the first episodes. They are powerfull and ruthless. The use of medieval “Christian” imagery is powerful and imho well done. I loved the way the SG-1 team failed again and again to stop the powerfull priors. The Ori were made to look like a very dangerous enemy. One should fear, both their power and their message.

Part of what makes an enemy truly dangerous, is the way they can “frack” with your mind. As in Battlestar Galactica where the Cylons always manage to manipulate their human adversaries. And part of what makes the Cylons so scary is that a lot of what they say actually makes sense. They are driven by a solid theological / ideological / psychological agenda. I hoped for the same concerning the Ori. What if the ancients truly did hold the evolution back for millions of beings, by refusing to help them ascend. What if the Ori were right, and just used ruthless means in their cause. Thinking that "The cause justifies the means". (Just like another of my favourite bad guys, Scorpio from Farscape.) But suddenly with the revelation that the Ori are lying, that they do not help people ascend, they are transformed from interesting enemies, to just another bunch of interdimensional bullies.. Booring… I had hoped for more.

And what about that stupid “The Alterans liked science and the Ori liked religion” explanation. From what naturalistic, hypermodern little hole did that line crawl up? The writers of Stargate, if any, should know that the old modern, science vs. religion fight, is not only a perfect way of alienating a lot of fans, it is also totally outdated and unnecessary. There are thousands of scientists all over the world who happen to be Christians, Muslims, Hindu, Buddhists, not to mention the Jews. You can be a man of science, no matter what creed you hold dear. This is something easily recognized in shows like Babylon 5 and Galactica.

This unnecessary polarisation ruins both the possibility of making the ancients spiritually wise, and the Ori scientifically excellent. Something that makes both sides less whole and therefore less interesting.

Well.. Your opinions? You don´t have to agree with me at all.
/Comblin
Ps. Sorry for gramatic misstakes, english is not my first language. Ds.

[AGateFan]

I have no problems with the bad guys being bad guys. I'm not a big fan of BSG. BSG does what BSG does. Stargate should do what Stargate does. The Religion vs Science thing did make me raise and eyebrow but as long as they dont preach it I am ok with it.

[Qasim]

I was happy with the way it was done

[Metarock Sam]

I see where you are coming from but I dont think that is the case. The writers arnt discriminating religion against science. All they were saying was that the Alterans prefferd the scientific point of view to the religious point of view which eventually triumphed.

[Comblin]

The main part of my irritation does not stem from anyone "discriminating religion". I am mostly disapointed and irritated storywise. Because the Ori, who could have been such theologicaly & idiologicaly interesting badguys are suddenly no more than powerhungry bullies.
/Comblin

[Eoin]

For some reason the 4th Horseman didnt seem that good to me either...well part 1 anyway...but im not gona jump to conclusions until part 2

[The Dude]

I agree with what you've said. You make good points. Come to think of it, it kind of creates a sort-of contradiction in the premise set by the show. So, the two groups differed in that one went the way of science and the other the way of religion. But, wait a sec, the Ori (the guys who went the way of religion) are shown doing things that, as far as have been shown, scientifically surpass the Alterans, i.e. creating a self-assembling super-stargate, etc. Doesn't sound to me like they spurned science that much if they're building super-stargates.

[Taonas]

I agree that with the revelation of how the Ori are, they aren't quite as interesting as they used to be.

That said, they still are really really cool. I mean ever since the introduction of the ascended (Season 3) I've wanted an opposite to balance the normal "good/vs/evil" storyline.

[Osiris-RA]

Part of what makes an enemy truly dangerous, is the way they can “frack” with your mind. As in Battlestar Galactica where the Cylons always manage to manipulate their human adversaries. And part of what makes the Cylons so scary is that a lot of what they say actually makes sense. They are driven by a solid theological / ideological / psychological agenda. I hoped for the same concerning the Ori. What if the ancients truly did hold the evolution back for millions of beings, by refusing to help them ascend. What if the Ori were right, and just used ruthless means in their cause. Thinking that "The cause justifies the means". (Just like another of my favourite bad guys, Scorpio from Farscape.) But suddenly with the revelation that the Ori are lying, that they do not help people ascend, they are transformed from interesting enemies, to just another bunch of interdimensional bullies.. Booring… I had hoped for more.

That's Season 9 for ya. A 2 dimensional letdown. I'm not sure I'd like them even if they weren't just out to suck energy from people or whatever it is. Granted, helping people ascend in a twisted little way is more interesting than that, but the Orii, in essence, are not psycological. They're not dimensional. They're out to get ya! A good bad guy should never just be a bad guy. Now-a-days, bad guys are like roaches or mice. Eeeee!! Step on it! Step on it!! A good baddie should always be part protagonist. He may be evil beyond compare, but he's always got something about him that a normal person may identify with. (at least on TV) If he's totally unlikable, he gets boring fast. That's why the Goa'uld were a hit. One of the things they had going for them was that they were really a worm that might be in someone you care about. You could just watch them over and over and over and over and over....

[Deputy-Assistant-Second-Prime]

And what about that stupid “The Alterans liked science and the Ori liked religion” explanation. From what naturalistic, hypermodern little hole did that line crawl up? The writers of Stargate, if any, should know that the old modern, science vs. religion fight, is not only a perfect way of alienating a lot of fans, it is also totally outdated and unnecessary. There are thousands of scientists all over the world who happen to be Christians, Muslims, Hindu, Buddhists, not to mention the Jews. You can be a man of science, no matter what creed you hold dear. This is something easily recognized in shows like Babylon 5 and Galactica.

This unnecessary polarisation ruins both the possibility of making the ancients spiritually wise, and the Ori scientifically excellent. Something that makes both sides less whole and therefore less interesting.

ORLIN: ...but a philosophical division grew. The Ori grew more and more fervent in their religious belief. The Alterrans, for a lack of a better way of putting it, believed in science. The Ori tried to wipe them out.

So, apparently the politics and philosophy of the Ori and Alterrans are somewhat complicated. I don't think Orlin was saying the Ori rejected science completely, rather that they were simply fervent in their religion. Neither do I think the Alterrans completely rejected religion. I just think Orlin was trying to simplify the explanation for SG-1.

I didn't find the Ori very interesting or mysterious...rather bland and predictable. What is interesting to watch is how SG-1 will approach this new threat. Personally, if they found a solution and wrapped the storyline up in one year, I wouldn't care. I feel ambivalent toward the Ori, not like I felt toward the Goa'uld or Replicators.

I'm still enjoying the series, just Season 9 would have been better with more interesting opponents.

[snoops]

I agree. The whole ori setup seemed quite interesting.. but as far as I'm concerned the show is getting just far to unrealistic to watch. The way ancients are depicted in sg1 is totally different to that of atlantis. ZPM's are a joke..A television network would think you were stupid if you came to them with a show that spends seasons looking for these mystical glowing lightbulbs. I've seen pretty much all stargate episodes, up until season 9 at least. There were some absolute butes throughout the series, but lately the writers really seem to be struggling, like they just don't care anymore.

The whole struggle between good vs evil is, dated to say the least?
It's all about points of view, the other side or baddies, must believe they are doing the right thing..vice versa.. Sometimes the goodies should make bad decisions, or questionable ones at least, so the viewers see they aren't so good anymore. Shades of grey. The ori I thought could have been that shade of grey, where as others said, the ends justify the means(forcing religion to ascend).. but as it was revealed, they are just a bunch of liars. The most interesting baddy from the sg universe as far as I remember would have to be Ba'al.. he just oozes awesomeness.

The whole ascension business seems to have really let down the show.

[Deputy-Assistant-Second-Prime]

I've seen pretty much all stargate episodes, up until season 9 at least. There were some absolute butes throughout the series, but lately the writers really seem to be struggling, like they just don't care anymore.

I think they're struggling to continue the theme of the series...aliens posing as false gods. I think the show would have been better off if they had adopted a new theme.

The whole ascension business seems to have really let down the show.

Personally, I don't feel let down, because I felt it was pretty obvious where things were heading. I just think we need more interesting and complicated antagonists.

[MarshAngel]

I see where you are coming from but I dont think that is the case. The writers arnt discriminating religion against science. All they were saying was that the Alterans prefferd the scientific point of view to the religious point of view which eventually triumphed.

It's not a matter of discriminating so much as clearly standing on one side of an argument.

Because the writers themselves are not a part of the SG universe, their motives for writing a story that mirrors modern-day societal conflicts, are always in question. We are always going to make note if they appear to be taking a definite side on a polarizing issue.
Everything they say, or at least intimate, through their stories to the audience suggests their stance on an issue.

Being a science fiction show, they've always been leaning towards science as opposed to religion and or spirituality. But in the 4th Horseman they didn't just suggest that science is good, logical, and morally upright (the image they seem to want us to have of the ancients) , they actually (having declared the Ori evil) suggested that religion was the source of Ori evil. That's a pretty big step in one direction and not one I personally appreciate.

The thing is, they implied the Ancient/Ori issue was so complicated that it needed to be dumbed down to religion vs. science. They can do better than that. You can't convince me they couldn't come up with a better explanation that. No societal divide is ever that simplistic.
Furthermore, as much as the Ancients seem to believe in science, in past episodes there were some definitely religious themes inherent in the ascension process. Obviously their stance wasn't a matter of pure science so it just seems a bit illogical to suddenly decide that the issue could be dumbed down and explained by: science good; religion bad.

[Deputy-Assistant-Second-Prime]

The thing is, they implied the Ancient/Ori issue was so complicated that it needed to be dumbed down to religion vs. science. They can do better than that. You can't convince me they couldn't come up with a better explanation that. No societal divide is ever that simplistic.

I think Orlin was just trying to direct the conversation into a more pragmatic direction. Hopefully, TPTB will delve into the complexity in a future episode.

Furthermore, as much as the Ancients seem to believe in science, in past episodes there were some definitely religious themes inherent in the ascension process. Obviously their stance wasn't a matter of pure science so it just seems a bit illogical to suddenly decide that the issue could be dumbed down and explained by: science good; religion bad.

Thanks for reminding me of this. Before we learned many of the ascended were ancients, the ascended had a philosophical/religious theme, whereas the ancients always had a technological theme. Things got muddled after we found out they were the same.

[Avenger]

Even if the Ori took a religious path, the split probably didn't occur right away. The two groups probably still lived together for some amount of time where the Alterans were developing technology. Besides, once the Ori learned to ascend, they'd have all the knowledge of how to use and create the technology anyway.