Evil Ori = Anti Religon

[SueS]

You cannot KNOW empirically or rationally anything asserted in the Bible. It is a collection of testaments from men who went out into the desert with little water and less food. The kind of men who are deemed insane today. It is filled with the ideas of men who speak to burning bushes. Those men wind up in mental wards nowadays.

You might want to brush up on your Bible history.

The Bible was written over a period of 1,500 years by more than forty different authors from various backgrounds, Moses (raised in Pharoh's household, led the Jewish people to freedom) David (shepherd and later King of Israel), Solomon (King of Israel), (Joshua (military general), Daniel (Prime Minister), Peter (fisherman), Luke (Physician), Paul (tentmaker), Matthew (Tax collector)

The Bible was composed on three differernt continents (Africa, Asia, and Eurpoe) and in three different languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek)

There is no rational or empirical basis for believing. That is what faith is. Believing in the absence of rational and/or empirical basis.

But that is not the basis of the Christian faith. Christians are not asked to believe in the absence of rational and/or emperical basis. We are not told to believe blindly but to examine and test the evidence.

"But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;" (I Thes 5:21)

"Test yourselves {to see} if you are in the faith; examine yourselves. Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless * indeed you fail the test?" (2 Cor 13:5)

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. (1 John 4:1)



SueS

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm sure DB will be back with his own thoughts on this, but I think he was referring to the fact that Christianity is built on the idea of Jesus Christ as the son of God, which carries with it that whole spiel about dying and rising again by God's power. That's the leap of faith part and that's what makes Christians Christians, so there is an element of suspending logical empiricism to being a Christian.

[SueS]

I'm sure DB will be back with his own thoughts on this, but I think he was referring to the fact that Christianity is built on the idea of Jesus Christ as the son of God, which carries with it that whole spiel about dying and rising again by God's power. That's the leap of faith part and that's what makes Christians Christians, so there is an element of suspending logical empiricism to being a Christian.

I certainly would be interested in hearing DB's thoughts on this. In the meantime, you brought up some interesting concepts that I'd like to discuss further. When you say "That's the leap of faith part and that's what makes Christians Christians I get the impression that you view Christians as someone standing near the edge of a cliff, who suddenly closes their eyes and then rushes headlong towards the edge completely oblivious to what lies ahead.

Yes faith is involved in being a Christian. Faith that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things. Faith that Jesus is the Messiah, and that it is through His death and resurrection that we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God. But, it is not a blind faith or a foolish faith.

One of the key elements of Christianity is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. In fact, I would argue that the whole of Christianity stands or falls on this one event. I'm not talking about a theoretical, philosophical or mythological resurrection, but a factual, historical resurrection. Because if the resurrection of Jesus never happened then we as Christians are nothing but a bunch of fools.


Which brings us to your comment that "there is an element of suspending logical empiricism to being a Christian."

If by empiricism you mean something that is observable and verifiable by the senses, something that can be seen, heard, touched, etc. Then I would argue that examining the evidence for resurrection does not involve "suspension of logical empiricism" .

It's getting late, and I'm getting tired and lazy so here are a few sites you may want to check out that look at the empirical evidence of the resurrection.


http://www.leaderu.com/truth/1truth22.html

http://www.wcg.org/lit/jesus/evidence.htm

http://regions.ivcf.org/evangelism/311



SueS

[inflammation]

Gotta add this caveat to that... I'm a "Myth of Mental Illness" kinda guy. My one internship on ward convinced me that Thomas Szasz had it right. So I'm not endorsing that all those kind of folks should be in padded cells or medicated!

So let me get this straight - you side with the guy (Szasz) who is a closet CoS member who came to these "conclusions" over 30 years ago? He has no good data to support his views, just anecdotal junk. Yes, he treated patients, but frankly at the dawn on psychiatric neuropharmacology - before far more efficacious threapies came into existence. I for one think nationwide misdiagnosis of childhood ADHD is far too common, as the physician lacks the time and/or willpower to explore issues of parenting skills. That however is a far cry from patients truly suffering from Schizophrenias, Bipolar Disorders, Severe Depression, OCD, etc. You clearly did not spend enough time on the "wards" to apprieciate patients with real psychopathology. All of these latter conditions, in recent years, have been linked to altered neurotransmitter levels or ratios through real science such as fMRI mapping of neurotransmitter levels. Frankly, some of psychiatry is still handwaiving, but the science is catching up and validating much of what has been proposed.

Szasz gets lumped with "Dr." Cruise - misinformed idiot who follows an even more ridiculous religion - one dreamed up by a science fiction author in an advanced state of delerium/dementia....

IL-talk to you later...

[CoffeeGirl]

"Dr." Cruise

Hee - I feel the sudden urge to post that "Dear Tom, STFU! - Love, the World" Icon I found somewhere.

But then, that's just me. *giggle*

[TheCorpulent1]

If by empiricism you mean something that is observable and verifiable by the senses, something that can be seen, heard, touched, etc. Then I would argue that examining the evidence for resurrection does not involve "suspension of logical empiricism" .

It's getting late, and I'm getting tired and lazy so here are a few sites you may want to check out that look at the empirical evidence of the resurrection.


http://www.leaderu.com/truth/1truth22.html

http://www.wcg.org/lit/jesus/evidence.htm

http://regions.ivcf.org/evangelism/311



SueS

I really don't want to get into a point/counterpoint on anything religious. Those sites all talk about the historical accuracy of the accounts of people who witnessed Jesus' being alive after the crucifixion, the accuracy of his tomb's being empty, etc. None of them actually address the miracle of Jesus' dying and then returning to life, which is what I was referring to, except I think in one of them it trivializes it by supposing that maybe Jesus didn't really die on the cross, he just appeared to be dead, in which case the Christian religion would've been founded on a misconception. But I'm not gonna touch that.

What I was referring to was the idea of Jesus' actually dying and actually being resurrected by God's power. Believing in that requires a suspension of logic, since every shred of empirical evidence we've encountered in history says that when people's bodies and minds completely expire, as Jesus' would have, they don't come back. There's no two ways about it. That is the absolute most basic tenet in the foundation of Christianity, and that's what I was referring to as requiring a suspension of logic. But, like I said, arguing religion never goes anywhere except in circles, so this is all I'm really going to say on the subject. Your beliefs are yours and I respect that, so I'm not going to argue them with you.

[Bast]

I dont think this show targeting any specific religion , Its merely pointing out some issues that all of us need to think about and evalute what we beleive in regardless of what it is even "communism" can fit in this not that I believe that crap, I think to be honnest this episode is more pointed towards the Mujahdeen jihadism a dark age religous zealousy unfortunately still exist today WITH "Al'qeada and in the middle east" were unbelievers are dehumanized and are put on one side apart from the believers and religion is forcefully put on people agiast the will, Now the writers did this discreetly that it doesnt point at one group and to be honnest most mainstream religions or cults for that matter can relate to this its not fingering just one religion.

With Christianity most of its past sins were due in part to the non scriptured edicts like the Code theodosius which was a "tolitarian state bylaw" simular to the muslim Shariah laws that commanded the violent ceasure and ostracisation of unbelievers and heretics anyone who dared challenged or question church authority like Gallileo.

All these things mentioned like the witch hunts , Inquisitions so fourth, Came from basically theocratic states were seperation of church and state didnt exist, When the christian movement began largely of exiled jews after the fall of Israel , They were a minority at the mercy of the outside world so displaying themselves as the law obeiding charitable passifist was the philosophy of the early christians as contriary to popular belief the Roman justice system was probaily better then any of the banana tribunals that came centuries later were you were convicted before you enterd the court house,Roman law was a basis for the american system and Nepoleons Civil code, Ceasar Hadrian (pagan homosexual) in a authentic roman document is corespounding to his magistrate abroad urging them to show christians fair justice and treat them to be innocent till proven otherwise and to punnish the accuser if there claims are proven to be untrue, To be quite frank both Hadrian and Markus Aulieus are probaily the best minds and leaders that ever sat on the throne in Rome.

If you want the church to remain clean keep it out of the goverment nothing is more scary then seeing fundiementalist saying things like 'taking back america" and reffering the goverment as a "christian republic", While the country is majority christians there are minorities here as well and Thomas Jefferson likely the first secularist leader in history saw good insight in keeping the state seperate impartial and fairly representing all the citizens, I dont think many christian denominations would apreciate another xtian church trumping them as official state religion, Countries that have "official state faiths" on the hole usually are pretty low when it comes to thought freedom, Where a cartoonist in greece gets arrested for drawing a picture of jesus on a surf board under a blastphemy charge or reporters spending time in jail for critizing the "church leaders actions".

There is an old saying you know its a devil if it cant handel being mocked.

[jimmytheclaw]

this season episode titles etc... seem to me like they are based (very loosely) on revelations. consider titles and plot lines all of the four seals are represented even the fourth horseman. as for the ori consider this who in this century is prosthelizing and doing the convert or die stuff? also the inquisition was all about people not being able to read the bible and know the message of the new testament. with the invention of the printing press the common man was able to read it which gave birth to the reformation and pried power out of the church. as for the ori resembling another world religion that is totally taboo un pc and possibly life threatening (anyone ever hear of theo van gogh) i think thats why they used gothic christian type stuff in origin even though i was suprised that they used the kneeling down with head down on the ground (look familiar) as for politics in scifi c'mon war of the worlds had slams on bush in it, i robot originally was a slam on communism. its there if you look for it and like many posted earlier on this thread you will see what you want to most of the time. as for it being anti-religion you might want to see what theology the writers producers etc... follow if any

[Darth Buddha]

If by empiricism you mean something that is observable and verifiable by the senses, something that can be seen, heard, touched, etc. Then I would argue that examining the evidence for resurrection does not involve "suspension of logical empiricism".

Sure it does.

There's similar 'evidence' for the resurrection and/or continued life of others, including Elvis. There's a far better case for Elvis.

If you claim that faith in the resurrection is consistent with either a rationalist or empiricist viewpoint means that you understand neither. But I'm sure you'll come back again. That's the nature of religious types. Witness the Jehovah's Witness and Mormons who come to my door even though I always send them away with a flea in their ear and an enraged terrier nipping at their heels. They're always back. Witness The Crusades. Time and time again, they were back. Witness the behavior the Israeli terrorist due to the withdrawal. While he may not get another chance, they'll be back. After all, Osama was associated with the first bombing of the World Trade Center, and he came back.

After all, if you have the one and only true revelation, what's reason, evidence, or the Miniature Schnauzer from Hell?

[warmbeachbrat]

Sure it does.

There's similar 'evidence' for the resurrection and/or continued life of others, including Elvis. There's a far better case for Elvis.

If you claim that faith in the resurrection is consistent with either a rationalist or empiricist viewpoint means that you understand neither. But I'm sure you'll come back again. That's the nature of religious types. Witness the Jehovah's Witness and Mormons who come to my door even though I always send them away with a flea in their ear and an enraged terrier nipping at their heels. They're always back. Witness The Crusades. Time and time again, they were back. Witness the behavior the Israeli terrorist due to the withdrawal. While he may not get another chance, they'll be back. After all, Osama was associated with the first bombing of the World Trade Center, and he came back.

After all, if you have the one and only true revelation, what's reason, evidence, or the Miniature Schnauzer from Hell?

Wow. I don't think that was necessary.

[Mr_Alpha_Omega]

Sure it does.

There's similar 'evidence' for the resurrection and/or continued life of others, including Elvis. There's a far better case for Elvis.

If you claim that faith in the resurrection is consistent with either a rationalist or empiricist viewpoint means that you understand neither. But I'm sure you'll come back again. That's the nature of religious types. Witness the Jehovah's Witness and Mormons who come to my door even though I always send them away with a flea in their ear and an enraged terrier nipping at their heels. They're always back. Witness The Crusades. Time and time again, they were back. Witness the behavior the Israeli terrorist due to the withdrawal. While he may not get another chance, they'll be back. After all, Osama was associated with the first bombing of the World Trade Center, and he came back.

After all, if you have the one and only true revelation, what's reason, evidence, or the Miniature Schnauzer from Hell?

That was really uncalled for. This thread is starting to get a little bit out of hand, can a mod please lock this topic?

[Adam628749]

I don't think SG1 is anti religion, but rather showing, how people misunderstand a religion and manipulate it to there own gains, same with the Gaould. If a religion gives you an ultimatum worship us or die then its not a religion from god but man made. If you worship or follow a religion out of fear and not out of freewill then what is the point.

ohh dude u need to chill, there is no need for that.

[Darth Buddha]

Wow. I don't think that was necessary.

That was really uncalled for. This thread is starting to get a little bit out of hand, can a mod please lock this topic?

Yeah. You are right. I guess I'm getting tired of the need of Christians on this board to hijack the thread. I make a comment about religion in general and the history of Crusades, Pogroms, Jihads, and purges and for some reason this is taken as an excuse to expound on Christianity.

If I note that one cannot empirically establish the Resurrection and that it must be taken on FAITH, that is to say, belief in the absence of empirical evidence, and some zealot takes that as an excuse to use the same sorry "proofs" that every other religion has to offer.

I guess I'm sickened by it. They sound, disturbingly, like Priors, here to PROVE their faith is right. Thank goodness at least they don't have supernatural powers!

Nevertheless, I should have waited for the inevitable reply. I jumped on the usually safe assumption that anyone who actually is far out enough to argue their faith is empirically sound (when religious faith is DEFINED by a belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence) is a zealot. The part about not comprehending the meaning of the word empirical I stand by, but the rest was over the top.

I should have waited for a zealous response, or just limited myself to the very simple observation that EVERY religion puts together such "proofs" of manufactured evidence, bad scholarship, and rewritten history. They can't all be correct, and from an empirical standpoint, none of them are.

There was really need to actually go into a list of such religious groups and their historical habits.... though I did make a point of showing it was common to MANY religions rather than targetting just ONE.

If I had to, just target a religion small enough for the "majors" to call them a cult. Scientology for example. That's always a safer route.

[DOCI]

Ok, here's my piece. This is not solely based on religion but from what I understand of the show.
If the ancients came here once before and then several million years ago they came back from the Pegasus galaxy (says so on the opening part of Atlantis rising) then how many millions of years ago were they here because I’m sure it took them a while to create stargates throughout the Pegasus galaxy and it must have been a while to make stargates here. plus the idea that they were the creators of all life in our galaxy (hence the ancient device that destroyed the replicators and did they have the same device in the Pegasus galaxy or was there already life there??) and how long were they back in our galaxy before them came across the "plaque." and I’m guessing it was after they came back is when they developed relations with the "4" races. (Ancients, Asgard, Knox and furies??) So just the fact of the show itself shows that god did not create the earth as said in the bible because that means life was here for millions, millions almost billions of years. And the bible says that life has only been on earth for a few thousand years.

But here's what I think, the show is based on a parallel dimension to our own and things are just different there.

[DOCI]

The Ori want people to learn the path. From the way they put it "worship us and become god like or die. Personally, I would like to be god like. It’s not like they are asking people to do any thing bad, just worship them. And I believe they give free will because if not, they would and could destroy any one they wanted for not believing in them but I see they leave that up to the people to condemn nonbelievers. though this contradicts this weeks episode were the prior kills the people for deciding to not worship the ori but from watching the episode, they didn't care if they did or din't because they wanted to use the planet to make that huge Stargate.

I’m guessing that the reason the people from the planet that Valara and Danny went to were so far behind technically is because the ancients had technology and did not believe the ori so they went away and that is why the ori keep people in the dark about technology. Just like Ra did with the Abadobians. Or the ancients and the ori were once one race and had a fall out and the ancients left and around the same time they both learned to ascend. Of course this now leaves me to want to know more about the Ori’s history.