Evil Ori = Anti Religon

[warmbeachbrat]

My second point: I have already responded to three of the posts you listed.

Post #32 was my response to Post #31. I asked for clarification. No response back.
Post #51 was my response to Post #39. I asked for clarification. No response back.
Post #94 was my response to Post #92. No response back to that message, but you had responded back to me earlier in the thread. I didn't request a response in this case, but at least I know you don't mind talking to me.

In those responses, I believe I negated the arguments put forward in support of the view of the original poster. If you disagree, please let me know.

If any of the posters I mentioned here would like to clarify their statements or debate the points I made, I await your comments with great anticipation.

More to come later....

Please see my 9:33 p.m. (US central time) post--I wonder if they don't respond, because they don't quite know how to put into words (at least--in a concise manner). Of course, I can't speak for them, but I know how much difficulty I had putting it into words (and, obviously, NOT in a concise manner).

[warmbeachbrat]

For my third point: In order for someone to make a case, they need to write in a manner that allows people to understand the points they are making, and the context in which they are speaking.

Post #68

This isn't a collection of organized thoughts, this is stream of consciousness with a seemingly indeterminant point. Because of the lack of punctuation and organization, I can't tell if he is taking a side in this debate, or simply offering points for consideration by both sides. In fact, there are times I can't tell when one thought ends and another begins.

Post #110

Here, in a later post, we get a better idea of his views.

If you have a different view of these posts, please let me know.

Mr. Claw, I don't mean to pick on you. I'm just responding to your comments by request of a fellow poster, but I had some difficulty understanding your comments. If you wish to clarify those comments or respond to my comments, please do. You seem very knowledgeable and it would be interesting to hear from you again.

More to come later....

Well, I can't disagree with you here!

[warmbeachbrat]

My fourth point: Slip of the tongue.

Post #127

Here, in the first paragraph, the poster is stating his opposition to a certain mindset and methodology, not to the religion itself.[/color]
[font=Verdana]
In the second paragraph, makes he makes the mistake of ascribing that mindset and methology to a particular religion.

Post #129



And one our helpful posters, makes a good argument to counter him.

Post #143


"I love Daniel!" graciously acknowledges his faux pas, and the argument against Christianity has been effectively negated. It is now clear they are discussing religious fanaticism, not a particular religion. It is now clear they are not agreeing with the view of the original poster in these posts; therefore, I dismissed these posts from consideration when making those assertions I have been asked to defend.

If you disagree with my assessment of this conversation, please let me know.

If "I love Daniel" or puddlejumper747 disagree or otherwise would like to comment on this, please do.

More to come later....[/color]

I'm not sure on this one--I'm a bit muzzy-headed from my own monster-post, so I'll have to get back to you on this point (it's bedtime--school starts tomorrow and I had a long day at work today to make up for the coming school hours).

[warmbeachbrat]

Fifth and last point: Admissability.

Post #126

This is not a firsthand account. We've been down this road before. Cast and crew has been accused of making insensitive comments, only to find out later that they were misquoted, someone else made the comments, the comments were taken out of context, or the words were never spoken at all.

I mean no slight against the poster. This was your first post and I welcome you; but, please understand that until I get real confirmation, I will not discuss what anyone may or may not have said. I don't want to slander anyone.

If this proves true, then we have an interesting point to debate. Until then, I will observe a respectful silence on this issue.

Normally, I would not respond until I got confirmation, but I was asked by another poster to comment on this post and I have done so.

Okay, I'm done. I hope I have given satisfactory answers. If not, let me know and I will enjoy your reading your responses.

Fair enough--I don't have enough experience with what cast, crew, and production say to know what is trustworthy or not. I am aware that there is drastic cultural, political, etc. differences among them.

Hee! Because you broke it up into five posts--I get the benefit of post count increase also! Thanks bunches!

Have a good night.

[SueS]

Hmmm, that's interesting! I was just thinking that tptb used that era as kind of a shorthand for people to get a certain "feeling" about the Ori, but I like your idea better--that tptb have the Ori themselves borrowing from that time period ala the goa'uld.

My guess is that it's probably a combination of the two. I mean, it's still the same idea of someone or something claiming to be a god when they are not, and the feeling they are trying to get across, at least IMO, is that this is wrong, the Ori are NOT gods.

It's also interesting that a couple of episodes near the end of the season have Arthurian sounding names (Camelot, Crusade), so perhaps they are going to revisit that. It makes for nice synchronicity for the season.

There's also an episode called Arthur's Mantle.

I've been a little burnt out on Eschatological matters, so that hadn't occurred to me--but it does add a certain dimension to the storyline (not that I think it even crossed the minds of tptb).

Well, they the mid-season two-parter is called "The Fourth Horseman" and

Spoiler:

the Priors unleash the plague on earth - causing hundreds perhaps even thousands to die because people refuse to bow down and worship the Ori. Which is quite similar to what happens in Rev 13 and 14.

SueS

[warmbeachbrat]

My guess is that it's probably a combination of the two. I mean, it's still the same idea of someone or something claiming to be a god when they are not, and the feeling they are trying to get across, at least IMO, is that this is wrong, the Ori are NOT gods.

You know, I've been thinking--I don't remember the Ori ever claiming to BE gods. They want everyone to follow them and ascend and what not, but I don't actually think they claim to be gods. I could be wrong--that pre-senile dementia kicking in--so if they have said something like that, please refresh my memory.

Another thing I found interesting (I think I mentioned it before) is the goa'uld Nerus saying something about "the closest thing to true Gods...." A tacit admission that somewhere there IS a God (a supreme being)? I know some wouldn't agree, but I found it notable.

[GateGipsy]

As far as I can recall the Ori only require that people believe the created them. There was no mention of the word 'god'. As for any religious parrallels in this season, I think that followers of islam have more grounds for complaint than christian fundamentalists.

[Deputy-Assistant-Second-Prime]

There has been a considerable amount of anti-Christian sentiment in the popular culture and media over the past several years.

Actually, I've seen a general nastiness directed both ways in American society. Personally, this is not something I want to see represented in the Stargate universe. This is the reason for my interest in this thread. This is also a reason to continue a rational and respectful debate.

I don't want to see any religion maligned. I don't want the religious fans and non-religious fans set against each other. I don't want to see fans of different religions set against each other.

A potentially damaging accusation has been made that this show we watch is putting religion down. To me, this is serious. If it's true, I want it to stop, so we can continue enjoying it together. If it's not true, I want to refute it completely so it doesn't slander the franchise.

This is why I have been so demanding and stringent. Consider the fact that this isn’t the first thread that makes this accusation. I’ve been on a few such threads, but this one has lasted the longest. No one could rationally express why they felt that way, and yet they persisted. Now, I’m not trying to suppress opinions or trivialize anyone’s feelings, but let’s consider the potential ramifications of these accusations.

Anyway, my point is that I have felt that, as a born-again Christian, I am looked upon with contempt by a great many people. I am not complaining--I am trying to explain where this undefinable "feeling" is coming from that is being discussed on this thread that you can not see or understand. Because of this "atmosphere," it is very easy for Christians to see negative imputations where none may be intended. It is not so easy to actually convey why (as you can see by the ever-increasing length of my post).

Perhaps you are expecting me to treat these comments with cynicism, but I do believe you. And believe me when I tell you that as a non-Christian I have felt contempt from Christians. I have had occasion to receive judgmental and condescending remarks, in the name of salvation.

I currently live in the south, so when people realize I am not a Christian, I am treated with a…polite awkward silence and lack of eye contact. It’s really hard, because they have a strange ritual greeting here. They don’t say, “Hi, my name is so-and-so.” They say, “What church do you go to?” And they know every church, so you just can’t fake a response. And they assume, if you don’t go, it’s only because you haven’t been able to find one…even though there are so many that you can’t back out of your driveway without passing five. Plus, the church is where all the wheeling-and-dealing starts, so if you don’t join, you’re a social pariah with little hope of surviving within that county.

There were several posts over several threads by several forum members that seemed to be downright gleeful that those awful religious bigots were going to get their comeuppance in Season 9 and they couldn't wait to see tptb address it. It seemed plain to me that they were talking about Christianity. After all, this forum is a microcosm for the (western) world at large (I know, I'm overgeneralizing, but I only have so much room), and there seems to be less and less tolerance for people of faith…

I think most posters, religious and not-so-religious, have drawn clear distinctions between religion and religious methodology. Those who haven't drawn the distinctions are the ones who were most offended. Sure folks are gleefully anticipating the Ori's defeat, because they represent things that many people consider plain awful, and can be found in the history of any religion. I'm talking largely about religious fanaticism, the suppression of individuality, and the suspension of rational thought. I find religious fanatics frightening, especially in large groups, irrespective of their religion.

So, yes, I think Ori are timely; and, yes, I am very happy Stargate SG-1 is addressing this problem in our society. This is what speculative fiction does. It opens our minds to possibilities and gets us to question things about ourselves. And it’s good to know that folks of many faiths are rejecting religious fanaticism. Religious fanaticism has no place in a democracy. In America, every individual is supposed to be valued, everyone should have a voice. Although our democracy is a majority rule, there are protections in place to protect minorities. Once those protections are removed, our democracy ceases to exist. Such protections are invariably the target of fanaticism. So, I thank TPTB for standing up for self-determination and democracy.

I have an additional response, but it is off-topic, so I will PM you the rest.

[warmbeachbrat]

As far as I can recall the Ori only require that people believe the created them. There was no mention of the word 'god'. As for any religious parrallels in this season, I think that followers of islam have more grounds for complaint than christian fundamentalists.

Oh, I agree with that!

[SueS]

You know, I've been thinking--I don't remember the Ori ever claiming to BE gods. They want everyone to follow them and ascend and what not, but I don't actually think they claim to be gods. I could be wrong--that pre-senile dementia kicking in--so if they have said something like that, please refresh my memory.

You are correct. We haven't actually heard the Ori themselves claim to be gods. But, then again, we've only seen/heard the Ori speak once, in Origin, when the Ori spoke to Daniel through the Head Prior.

Now, prior to this meeting Daniel was speaking to the other Prior and trying to understand the Ori and why these people believed they should be worshipped:

DANIEL: ... I think maybe I know what the Ori are. Who they are. And I'm not denying they are very powerful beings, but if I'm right, they're not Gods. They're like the ascended beings I know. They simply have a greater understanding of the knowledge of the universe.

Head Prior: What is a God, but a being that is worshipped by those beneath. Is great knowledge, power, understanding, not enough for you to revere the Ori?

Daniel: Respect, yes certainly. But that doesn't mean I would murder innocent people in their name. I guess what I'm trying to understand is whether the Ori have spoken to you directly. Told you to worship them. Or whether you've misinterpreted some evidence you've found along the way and developed this religion on your own.

But later, when Daniel speaks to the Ori, it seems pretty clear that the Ori do expect people to worship them:

Ori: We are Ori.

Daniel: You instruct these people to worship you.

Ori: We are their creators. All who follow the path will join us in enlightenment.

Daniel: Do you know who the Altairans are?

Ori: Those who abandon the path are evil.

Daniel: Evil? Why?

Ori: They shield you.

Daniel: Really. I didn't really think they do much of anything for us, but I guess I was wrong.

Ori: The truth of the universe has been obstructed. All will learn the power of the Ori.

Also, towards the end of Origin when the magistrate has become a Prior, the head Prior says, "Great holy armies shall be gathered and trained to fight all who embrace evil. In the name of the Gods, ships shall be built to carry our warriors out amongst the stars and we will spread Origin to all the unbelievers! The power of the Ori will be felt far and wide and the wicked shall be vanquished."


Also, with regard to the Ori wanting people to ascend. I'm not so sure about that. Yes, it seems that they promise those who worship them that they will ascend - Nerus certainly seemed to believe that. But, it seems th Ori need people to worship them, and if everyone ascends, then who is left to worship the Ori? JMHO, but I think ascension is a false promise the Ori dangle in front of these people in order to get them to worship them.

Another thing I found interesting (I think I mentioned it before) is the goa'uld Nerus saying something about "the closest thing to true Gods...." A tacit admission that somewhere there IS a God (a supreme being)? I know some wouldn't agree, but I found it notable.

I noticed that too. I also believe there is a tacit admission that somewhere there IS a God whenever they claim that such-as-such a goa'uld is a FALSE God. If there is a FALSE God, then there must be a TRUE God.


SueS

[puddlejumper747]

You know, I've been thinking--I don't remember the Ori ever claiming to BE gods. They want everyone to follow them and ascend and what not, but I don't actually think they claim to be gods. I could be wrong--that pre-senile dementia kicking in--so if they have said something like that, please refresh my memory..

As far as I can recall the Ori only require that people believe the created them. There was no mention of the word 'god'.

You are correct. We haven't actually heard the Ori themselves claim to be gods. But, then again, we've only seen/heard the Ori speak once, in Origin, when the Ori spoke to Daniel through the Head Prior.

I don't know....maybe it's just me....but this quote came directly from the end of Origin:

DOCI: Great holy armies shall be gathered and trained to fight all who embrace evil. In the name of the gods, ships shall be built to carry our warriors out amongst the stars and we will spread Origin to ALL the unbelievers! The power of the Ori will be felt far and wide, and the wicked shall be vanquished.

Am I somehow reading too much into that particular phrase? It seemed rather conclusive to me, especially coming from that guy. I mean, if the Head Prior of the Ori thinks they're gods....what more proof do you need?

[Deputy-Assistant-Second-Prime]

I mean, if the Head Prior of the Ori thinks they're gods....what more proof do you need?

Tax exempt status?

[Gaterelle]

no.. Daniel was defending free will against the will of the Ori. We have the free will to believe in the religions on Earth.

I was just gonna say that!
It's not about religion, it's about forcing people to believe what you believe.
That's not about spirituality at all.

[SueS]

I don't know....maybe it's just me....but this quote came directly from the end of Origin:

DOCI: Great holy armies shall be gathered and trained to fight all who embrace evil. In the name of the gods, ships shall be built to carry our warriors out amongst the stars and we will spread Origin to ALL the unbelievers! The power of the Ori will be felt far and wide, and the wicked shall be vanquished.

Am I somehow reading too much into that particular phrase? It seemed rather conclusive to me, especially coming from that guy. I mean, if the Head Prior of the Ori thinks they're gods....what more proof do you need?

I also used that quote in my response. Perhaps I wasn't being clear, but what I was trying to say was that even though we have yet to hear the Ori themselves says, "We are gods," it is quite clear that they do think of themselves as gods.


SueS

[warmbeachbrat]

Tax exempt status?

Hee!

That's it! We defeat the Ori by turning them over to the IRS--how could they possibly prevail against our "brave revenue agents" and bloated bureaucracy?


Um, Deputy-Assistant-Second-Prime (whew! Mind if I call you DASP?), I'm in the middle of starting up my online classes (with brief forays into the Gateworld Form), so I don't have the time I'd like to devote to answer your response to my monster post. I should have more time on the weekend--so, if it's all right, I'll get to it then. Thanks so much for your thoughts and comments!