Are they the "real" SG1: An analysis (Spoilers for Moebius, Threads and other eps.)

[Skate Zilla]

roflmao, somone had too much time ,

just think "back to the future", there... Doc Emmit Brown Ezxplains it all for ya..

oh and the time machine was taken to Earth from atlantis, when the scientist left atlantis to return to The Milkyway galaxy he built another one..

OH, and the Conclusion is a Bit off...

according to reletivitey, there is only 1 timeline in the universe, the timeline is affected by events in the past etc etc etc, when you screw witht he past you dont make an ALTERNATE timeline, you modify the exiting one.

SO.. technically it is teh Real SG-1, Just Modified A Few Times Over the years as a result of them dicking with the timeline.....

[gabrielsean]

...

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!

My head hurts.

I'm going to confess that I opened up a "notepad" and started analyzing the flippin' finale. I looked at the script over and over and rewatched the show. There's always going to be the case of, "what if"... however, I give my thumbs up to all who basically said:

~ It's Stargate: SG-1. The time travel is part of it. I just like the show! ~

Things happen... they change or don't change. The show is still amazing, regardless. There have been some very logical posts in this topic... and silly ones... regardless, I just like to watch the show. Hopefully SG1 fans can enjoy the show without having to make a headache out of it. I couldn't resist analyzing the Moebius 2-parter, yet in the end would have been at least as happy knowing that I just sat back and watched it.

This finale was definitely, though it may not seem like it, a cliffhanger for the series. There *are* "what ifs" in there. I hope we get to enjoy them in season 9, and let the creators of the show worry about the headaches ;-) and let us just enjoy how they turn the "what ifs" into "ohhhhhhhhhhh!"s from us.

Amen?

Amen.

[Antioch]

The Jack, Sam, Teal'c, and Daniel we've been watching all these years died in ancient Egypt. Of course I wish it wasn't true; of course I hate it; but I do think it is a fitting end to their adventures. Almost fulfilling, if Atlantis turns out to be worth a darn. Anyway, I'll explain why I think 'our' SG-1 is dead.

Our beloved characters (and possibly we) live in the 'many-worlds' interpretation of quantum physics. Stargate is played out in an infinite multiverse where every possibilty is realized. Schrodinger's Cat is alive in one reality and dead in the next. Charlie never died in many realities; Jack is First Prime of Apophis; Sam is a total geek and Daniel teaches English as a second language. Whenever not only people but quantum particles as well must go one way or the other, there's a universe for each way. Mind expanded yet?

The proof of course is in the Alternate Universe and Time Travel episodes. Specifically, season 3's 'Point of View', when Teal'c, Jack, and Daniel travel through the mirror to AltCarter's universe. When it's time to go back and Daniel is trying to dial the mirror to the correct reality, he sees a Carter that seems to be his, but notices the 'Captain' on her uniform. There are an infinite number of Daniels searching for an infinite number of Sams. Daniel manages to get the reality 'close enough' and returns. The problem is, he's not in the same reality. He's in one close enough. A close enough version of Daniel from some other reality took the real Daniel's place in our original reality.

I believe the various time travel eps and perhaps even the Stargate itself work in much the same way. 'Our SG-1' (it's getting harder and harder to think of it like that, no?) didn't travel back into their own past, (and Carter should've known this), they traveled into the past of the SG-1 at the end of 'Moebius'. Geek SG-1 from another plane enters shortly thereafter, everyone sighs, declares 'reset button episode' and all is right. Only it's not alright. A conglomeration of people from different realities that we've called our SG-1 is dead.

[YodaMate]

True, it's a real and pretty good theory but there is one glaring problem with it and that problem has a name.....

Doctor Weir.

Let us not forget that before SG-1 upgraded their personal choice of time travel to the much more stlyish puddle jumper (who needs a wormhole anymore ?), there was a Doctor Weir cruising around the space time continuum in one. And she went further back than they did

But those pesky Ancients left her stranded in the past by (very irresponsibly to my mind) destroying the time machine that was sitting minding its own business in the puddle jumper bay. Now she is another one of those refugees unable to return to the events that lead to her time travel. So what does she do ? Singlehandedly (well almost) saved the future Atlantis in two timelines then decided to take a nap.

But as Season Three made blatantly clear, dimensional travel in Stargate is risky business. Carter is known in certain circles for her tough underbelly under her sweet-natured looks, but even she started to succumb to the rigours of her beloved science after only 48 hours.

And no matter how old you suspect Dr Weir to be, she is most certainly more than 48 hours old and yet she had some lovely bedside chats with herself. So time travel in Stargate is most definitely not equated with dimensional travel.

[@Li3n]

The way i like 2 think about it is like this: Our SG-1 only time-traveled once in "1969". Because in that it didn't affect the original timeline at all (Hammond giving Sam the note proves it). In "2010" the future SG-1 was from a alt-timeline (old Cassandra from "1969" proves that) and just stop our SG-1 from meeting the Aschen. Also in Moebius the SG-1 that died in Egypt is an alt SG-1 that is identical 2 our SG-1 except the whole dieing in Egypt part...
The 1 fish might have always been in the pond but Jack just didn't see it before, or maybe he put it there as a joke after seeing the tape...
If we use 1969 as our reference 4 timetraveling (it's the first and IMHO only time our SG-1 went back in time) that SG-1 couldn't have died because that would change the ending from that ep. (1969)!

[Leah Jenner]

I *HATE* time travel!

As I see it it's a closed time-loop. The deaths of Jack, Sam and Teal'c A in the failed rebellion creates Alternate Timeline B who discover the recording made by Daniel A and send Jack, Sam and Daniel B through the gate to find Teal'c B then on to Ancient Egypt to team up with Daniel A and put history back on track, eliminating their own timeline just like the timeline in 2010 was
eliminated.

Thus it is our beloved Team A who discover the recording and power source
in the that tomb and so do *not* go back in time and die.

I really, really, REALLY hate time travel!!!!

[YodaMate]

Ironically, the episode title is misleading. I've heard 'Moebius' is supposed to equate to 'loop'.

If that is true, then this is not a true reflection of the episode : because at the end, SG-1 were informed not to travel back in time. It can more accurately be described as suddenly shifting direction and then shifting back to a direction similar but different to the one they came in.

Whereas the end result of 1969 (excluding previous offscreen timelines/time travel) actually was a loop : George gives them the note in 1999, because he met SG-1 in 1969 (and saw Sam's injury), SG-1 returns to 1999 because Lieutenant Hammond found the note in 1969, SG-1 are the way they are in 1999 possibly because they met Hammond and told him he'd be a General (also possibly giving him the impetus to convince Jacob to talk to a young troubled Sam, convincing her to join the Air Force).

At the end of that episode, we didn't know what the causality direction (e.g. cause => effect) was because it was a loop (effect => cause => effect and so on). Due to the new interpretation of time travel, we now know that 1999 must have happened first, then the 1969 trip.

[HisDivineShadow]

If you don't want to read a complicated analysis of why the real SG-1 is dead, or read any spoilers, stop or prepare to be pissed off.














If you consider the SG-1 at the beginning of Moebius #1 as the real SG-1, then they are indeed dead. They were executed by Ra when they attempted to stage the first rebellion in Ancient Egypt.

Time Travel Fallacy in Moebius.
Despite how things look, this episode is NOT a time travel one. If it was, the transformation of the future that allowed the Alternate Sam and Daniel to exist would have collapsed the timeline in which the original SG-1 went back, nullifying their influence on the timeline and therefore, destroying the Alternate tangent in the first place in what is known as the Grandfather Paradox (which I will inconveniently neglect to explain or describe). Likewise, the intervention of the Alternate Sam and Daniel on the newly spawned timeline would have given SG-1 the ZPM, and, as Sam said at the end, they wouldn't NEED to do anything. Wrong. If they never went back in time, the whole plan is mucked, and both timelines collapse, leaving SG-1 with no ZPM and no alternate timelines. But if that is true, how can this problem be reconciled?


Time Travel or Parallel Universe Trolling?
It can be when time travel is seen not as travel through time, but the influence of one parallel reality on another (or several in this case). In the new, post-Moebius timeline, two major influences occurred. The first is that an alternate team very similar to our SG-1 arrived in Ancient Egypt to position the ZPM and to make the tape that is found in the future. Another team, the ALT team, also arrives in our universe a few years later than the first SG-1 to ensure that the Stargate remains on Earth. Both of these events were engineered in the (false) assumption that they would affect their own timelines. However, it is infinitely more likely that the first SG-1 never return to their own universe, since most of them are executed and Daniel stays behind, and that the ALT team also remains in this new universe, and thus disappears from their own universe. In their case, unfortunately, they abandon an alternate Earth which is doomed, since Apophis has already sent a fleet of ships to destroy Earth. That brings up an important point that this process discontinues NONE of the realities, but if a body defines "existence" with anything that can be observed in our local reality, then the others, for all intents and purposes, are no longer here, even though their echo may still be.

How the System Works
While the "Time Machine" is not a alternate reality transport device like the Quantum Mirror, the nature of parallel realities is that they are all merged at some point in time. For example, at a store, I have a choice to buy either Coke or Pepsi. If I buy the Coke, that branches one tangent off from the other in which I have bought Pepsi, but before I made the decision, both realities exist simultaneously. So if I buy a Pepsi, go back in time to make myself buy Coke instead, blow up the Pepsi machine, and return to my original universe, I will find an intact Pepsi machine, and a bad aftertaste in my mouth still. Meanwhile, the other me in the Coke tangent will decide to buy Pepsi right before some jerk from an alternate universe causes the machine to explode. THAT me will end up buying Coke.

Of course, this situation assumes that the "time machine" displaces immediately to the new tangent universe that is created by the disruption, stranding the travelers in the new alternate universe, and forever out of contact with their home world (although my knowledge of Ancient technology is wanting) so a body using the device would travel upstream in the new reality, not the old one from whence they came.

For this theory to work, one has to assume that independent quantum states are capable of influencing one another. However, our current understanding of quantum mechanics proves that not only is this interference possible, it is necessary and occurring all the time. Unfortunately, the infinite capacity for merged tangents and multi-dimensional interference also casts serious questions about how well the Quantum Mirror and even the Stargate are supposed to work, but that is another entry in itself.

Theory Applied to other Stargate Episodes.
This same phenomenon can be used to explain the episode "Before I Sleep" in Atlantis where Dr. Weir travels back in time using the time ship. In that case, she does managed to create or influence an entirely new alternate universe and remains mired in it. The expedition in her reality, however all also all dead. In this case, we see the "First" expedition as the alternate one that produced the interference that causes the one we know today. So too, can the SG-1 from the beginning of Moebius be an alternate one that produces an alternate tangent. In 1969, however, the circumstances are much different. In this case, no alternate tangent is produced. Rather, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, like a lone gunmen sent back in time to stop the JFK assassination, but accidentally shoots the president while aiming for an assassin - and doing it all from a grassy knoll. In this case, time travel doesn't "change" anything. Instead, it is a requisite of that particular tangent, and event required to occur to maintain the tangent rather than break it. Anyone who saw "War Without End" in Babylon 5 knows what I am talking about. In this situation, the system is not a matter of interference, but a closed loop.

Closing The Loop.
Therefore, if you consider the SG-1 portrayed at the beginning of Moebius #1 as the "real SG-1", then yes, they are dead. They died in Ancient Egypt at Ra's hand, save for Daniel Jackson. The Jack O'Neill from that reality also has no fish in his pond. But however, if we consider that entire half of the episode the story of an alternate timeline that is similar to ours that would try to "change the past" to get a ZPM, then one can reconcile the fact that the SG-1 and the end of Moebius #2 would "not have to do anything" to keep the ZPM and the tape made by a team from an alternate universe. The tape, by the way, will detail events and facts that are very similar to our universe, but will deviate slightly, since that tangent is "closer" to ours with regard to similar pasts. This, however, also means that invasive artifacts from these different universes are present in this universe now. Three of them include three puddle jumpers, or the remains of each one, one sent by the original team, another sent by the Alt team, and the last found on Maybourne's Planet.

For more information about this phenomenon, recommended reading includes The Philosophy of Time Travel by Roberta Sparrow. +D

-HDS

[YodaMate]

Good summary of the multi-verse theory. Donnie Darko himself would be proud

Determining the "real" SG-1 at the moment is tricky and depends on who you consider to be "real" and to a lesser extent what theory of time travel you ascribe to (over-riding the timeline or multi-verse).

The multi-verse if far more scientifically grounded than 'over-riding timeline' or at least from an Earth perspective, which is why i believe McKay ascribes to it. Whereas the science of over-riding timelines is harder to grasp and follows its own set of rules, perhaps not necessarily ones that Earth’s science has advanced enough to comprehend. But that is not really relevant to SG-1's status.

There is also the question of whether an exact copy of SG-1, with the same experiences is actually any different from the 'originals'. Their other selves who were killed, and the selves who will presumably participate in Season 9 are exactly the same people. Thus, the question of which ones are 'real' is rather subjective and potentially pointless. Much like asking whether Daniel in 1969 was more 'real' than his 4 year old other self.

For the purposes of the analysis though, either you consider the SG-1 from previous episodes to be the 'real' one, or the ones who are 'native' to the current timeline from Moebius onwards. They could be one and the same, if the Part 1 opened up with a near-identical SG-1 in another timeline/universe. Though that works better with the multi-verse theory, it also works with the timeline overriding theory : it would mean that the events of Stargate (serieses and movie) were not the first time they had happened, similar to how what we saw in Rising wasn't the first time the expedition went to Atlantis.

There isn't enough conclusive evidence to figure out which is which. There is the fish thing. Apart from the videotape, on one occasion Jack remarked that there were "no pesky fish" in his pond and on another Teal'c said he didn't think there were any fish in the pond. But then, Teal'c's fishing experience was limited and Jack's comment was wishful thinking that he was at his pond (rather than wherever he was, i can't remember) which could mean that he doesn't want to actually catch any fish (which would likely entail cleaning and other preparations that he was too lazy to do). And, as many have pointed out, planting fish in the pond to mess with his team would fit Jack's sense of humour.

It could even have been the other Jack, who may well have travelled back to 2005 in the functional jumper, who did that to mess with Jack's head. We know from previous experience that Jack's clones resent the fact that only one Jack can lead their life of adventure and this may well apply to his other self too.

Far more interesting evidence that requires further examination is the timing. In Moebius Part 1, Sam refers to the jumper as "the jumper". That is an Atlantis expedition term that she was unlikely to come up with on her own. Which implies that she has read the Atlantis report, which was sent when the Wraith were less than two weeks away from Atlantis. As we know from the Siege, Earth doesn't send help until after the Wraith arrive in-system.

Daniel refers to the opening of an Eygptian tomb a month before they left 2005. It was in this tomb that SG-1 put the ZPM and the tape. Thus the end of Moebius Part 2 takes place a month chronologically before the beginning of Part 1, which opened with SG-1 discussing a trip to Atlantis. At the end of Part 2, SG-1 is packing for the fishing trip that we see them take at the end of Threads. One must presume that Earth would be eager to make contact with Atlantis, so i don't see why they would wait two weeks after getting a ZPM before dialling Pegasus.

This is an indication that the timing of the Wraith attack on Atlantis and the sending of the message was changed. What exactly that indicates, i'm not too sure and too tired to figure out. Talk about it amongst yourselves

[Noo ani Anqueetus]

Wait wait...I can fix this....

No matter what SG-1 did to the timeline...to us (average-joe-not-a-SGC-guy), to us...everything would be the original...SO...to us this is the original SG-1...cause we don't know any different. Fixed!!


*Note: Time Travel doesn't ruin anything...:-)

[Skate Zilla]

If you don't want to read a complicated analysis of why the real SG-1 is dead, or read any spoilers, stop or prepare to be pissed off.














If you consider the SG-1 at the beginning of Moebius #1 as the real SG-1, then they are indeed dead. They were executed by Ra when they attempted to stage the first rebellion in Ancient Egypt.

Time Travel Fallacy in Moebius.
Despite how things look, this episode is NOT a time travel one. If it was, the transformation of the future that allowed the Alternate Sam and Daniel to exist would have collapsed the timeline in which the original SG-1 went back, nullifying their influence on the timeline and therefore, destroying the Alternate tangent in the first place in what is known as the Grandfather Paradox (which I will inconveniently neglect to explain or describe). Likewise, the intervention of the Alternate Sam and Daniel on the newly spawned timeline would have given SG-1 the ZPM, and, as Sam said at the end, they wouldn't NEED to do anything. Wrong. If they never went back in time, the whole plan is mucked, and both timelines collapse, leaving SG-1 with no ZPM and no alternate timelines. But if that is true, how can this problem be reconciled?


Time Travel or Parallel Universe Trolling?
It can be when time travel is seen not as travel through time, but the influence of one parallel reality on another (or several in this case). In the new, post-Moebius timeline, two major influences occurred. The first is that an alternate team very similar to our SG-1 arrived in Ancient Egypt to position the ZPM and to make the tape that is found in the future. Another team, the ALT team, also arrives in our universe a few years later than the first SG-1 to ensure that the Stargate remains on Earth. Both of these events were engineered in the (false) assumption that they would affect their own timelines. However, it is infinitely more likely that the first SG-1 never return to their own universe, since most of them are executed and Daniel stays behind, and that the ALT team also remains in this new universe, and thus disappears from their own universe. In their case, unfortunately, they abandon an alternate Earth which is doomed, since Apophis has already sent a fleet of ships to destroy Earth. That brings up an important point that this process discontinues NONE of the realities, but if a body defines "existence" with anything that can be observed in our local reality, then the others, for all intents and purposes, are no longer here, even though their echo may still be.

How the System Works
While the "Time Machine" is not a alternate reality transport device like the Quantum Mirror, the nature of parallel realities is that they are all merged at some point in time. For example, at a store, I have a choice to buy either Coke or Pepsi. If I buy the Coke, that branches one tangent off from the other in which I have bought Pepsi, but before I made the decision, both realities exist simultaneously. So if I buy a Pepsi, go back in time to make myself buy Coke instead, blow up the Pepsi machine, and return to my original universe, I will find an intact Pepsi machine, and a bad aftertaste in my mouth still. Meanwhile, the other me in the Coke tangent will decide to buy Pepsi right before some jerk from an alternate universe causes the machine to explode. THAT me will end up buying Coke.

Of course, this situation assumes that the "time machine" displaces immediately to the new tangent universe that is created by the disruption, stranding the travelers in the new alternate universe, and forever out of contact with their home world (although my knowledge of Ancient technology is wanting) so a body using the device would travel upstream in the new reality, not the old one from whence they came.

For this theory to work, one has to assume that independent quantum states are capable of influencing one another. However, our current understanding of quantum mechanics proves that not only is this interference possible, it is necessary and occurring all the time. Unfortunately, the infinite capacity for merged tangents and multi-dimensional interference also casts serious questions about how well the Quantum Mirror and even the Stargate are supposed to work, but that is another entry in itself.

Theory Applied to other Stargate Episodes.
This same phenomenon can be used to explain the episode "Before I Sleep" in Atlantis where Dr. Weir travels back in time using the time ship. In that case, she does managed to create or influence an entirely new alternate universe and remains mired in it. The expedition in her reality, however all also all dead. In this case, we see the "First" expedition as the alternate one that produced the interference that causes the one we know today. So too, can the SG-1 from the beginning of Moebius be an alternate one that produces an alternate tangent. In 1969, however, the circumstances are much different. In this case, no alternate tangent is produced. Rather, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, like a lone gunmen sent back in time to stop the JFK assassination, but accidentally shoots the president while aiming for an assassin - and doing it all from a grassy knoll. In this case, time travel doesn't "change" anything. Instead, it is a requisite of that particular tangent, and event required to occur to maintain the tangent rather than break it. Anyone who saw "War Without End" in Babylon 5 knows what I am talking about. In this situation, the system is not a matter of interference, but a closed loop.

Closing The Loop.
Therefore, if you consider the SG-1 portrayed at the beginning of Moebius #1 as the "real SG-1", then yes, they are dead. They died in Ancient Egypt at Ra's hand, save for Daniel Jackson. The Jack O'Neill from that reality also has no fish in his pond. But however, if we consider that entire half of the episode the story of an alternate timeline that is similar to ours that would try to "change the past" to get a ZPM, then one can reconcile the fact that the SG-1 and the end of Moebius #2 would "not have to do anything" to keep the ZPM and the tape made by a team from an alternate universe. The tape, by the way, will detail events and facts that are very similar to our universe, but will deviate slightly, since that tangent is "closer" to ours with regard to similar pasts. This, however, also means that invasive artifacts from these different universes are present in this universe now. Three of them include three puddle jumpers, or the remains of each one, one sent by the original team, another sent by the Alt team, and the last found on Maybourne's Planet.

For more information about this phenomenon, recommended reading includes The Philosophy of Time Travel by Roberta Sparrow. +D

-HDS

they arent dead.. since they didnt go back in time when the timeline was "fixed" they didnt get executed.. blah blah blah....

we need to goto school for this stuff

It dont matter.. wrtiers want to end the SG-1 series before it goes down the toilet..

they want to divert their remaining plot to Atlantis...