Fanfic Writers' Virtual Water Cooler

[selene0789]

We read The Jungle by Upton Sinclair in my freshman American Lit class in high school. And All Quiet on the Western Front. I liked the first and abhored the second.

I tend to run hot and cold on classic literature. I devoured anything written by the Bronte sisters. I really disliked To Kill a Mockingbird. (Sometime in my mid-twenties I became convinced I hadn't given Mockingbird a fair shake so I read it again. Despite different eyes I still didn't care for it much.)

Heheh... I loved All Quiet on the Western Front. I also enjoyed TKaM. Jane Eyre is my fave romance of all time. Jane Eyre actually has a funny backstory, in how the story came into my hands... See, my junior year of high school, I had enrolled in the gen. ed. level of English. Our summer reading project was to read, take notes on, and report "The Crucible". I did. The first month of class, we read the play aloud in class, with various students reading the different parts, and then watch the movie. Great.

Right about the time we started in with REAL coursework, we took these little placement tests, just so he could see where we were and to pass some time, I guess. Well, he took one look at mine, gave it back to me with a sticky note that said "You do not belong in this class. You will not be happy until you move to the college-level Advanced Placement class." I did. Our first assignment in my new class, he passed mine back to me with another note that said "This is where you belong."

Anywho, after the AP exams in May, we had a month of nothing to do, so what was on the curriculum? Yup. The Crucible. Same thing. Reading aloud in class, watching the film, writing reports. Well, the teacher saw me bored to tears-- and I'm serious here. Tears. So he looked over his bookshelf, pulled out Jane Eyre, and tossed it to me. "See how you like that. Report back when you're done."

I devoured it, and the scene where Rochester confesses his love to Jane had me laughing out loud. The part where he says, "What? You don't believe me?" and Jane fires back with a "No, I don't." Hah, that girl had some spunk!



I just loved it, and I always had a soft spot for that teacher. He was one who really considered what his students needed, not only to be happy, but to do well. And this was a teacher my sister had two years before I did, and usually when that happens they all judged me against her performance (and were usually surprised that we weren't anything alike), but this one didn't ever consider besides a "your sister was in here a couple years ago, right?" on the first day of class.

He's one of the people who have had a lot of influence on my passion for the written word.

[fems]

And this was a teacher my sister had two years before I did, and usually when that happens they all judged me against her performance (and were usually surprised that we weren't anything alike), but this one didn't ever consider besides a "your sister was in here a couple years ago, right?" on the first day of class.

Oh yeah, that happened to me a lot too. Some of the teachers and my mentor were like "oooh, are you [brother's name]'s sister?" and they were all psyched about it because he'd been the teacher's pet for some... and then there was me. He was the guy that sat in front of class, often across the teacher's desk and had nice conversations with them and whoever was sitting next to him. I was in the back of the class talking to everyone but the teacher.

Still, my mentor liked me for some reason (I don't know why because I was pretty 'mean' to her the first two years) and I've actually bumped into her a few times on the train when I'm going to visit my parents or old friends. We always have nice conversations and she's always asking about how I am and how my brother is doing (as well as my best friend, considering we were inseparable at school).

A couple of years ago my old high school invited me for one of those information evening meetings for kids (and their parents) that are (hopefully) graduating that year to talk about the transition from high school to university, what life as a student was like, how to get a good room/house (we don't have dorms) in the city you're going to be living in and how to get by with your money, rent, uni fees etc. and I had a lot of great talks with some of my old teachers (including my mentor). One of them, my chemistry teacher, didn't like me much (it was mutual) and had told me at my graduation that he'd expected me to fail (his class) so he was really surprised when I pointed out that his favorite (and best) student was my cousin! He couldn't believe anyone related to me could be that good/nice in his class since he had never known my brother.

[Whytewytch]

My youngest is lucky to have skated out of that particular dark alley. He's now zoned for a different school than his brother attended. Good thing, too! He would've had his brother's rep for being...very teen-agery(?) to dodge.

[fems]

Well, luckily there were also plenty of teachers who didn't know my brother. That's the nice thing about there being 6 years between us; some teachers had been transferred/fired or retired!

I don't recall sharing any high school teachers with my sister, since she did a different level than my brother and I. Maybe some in the first two years though, but I don't recall ever hearing any comments about her.

We did have a lot of the same teachers in primary school though. Those were usually assigned one year so I'd have the same one as my siblings did in specific grades. One of the teachers actually quit before I was in his class and went to my high school! He was very nice though and taught history, something I had already dropped by the fourth year (which he taught) so we only talked in the hallways on occasion.

EDIT:
I'm not sure it's much of a curse or anything like that; sometimes it was more of a blessing, to know what to expect from certain teachers could come in handy.

Although in the case of my mentor my brother was like "Ooooh, Mrs [name] is going to be your mentor? She's cool!" and I was like "No, she's annoying and meddlesome and she always looks surprised with those wide eyes of hers". He did give me a heads-up on a physics teacher, although the man retired the year I was supposed to get in his class.

[selene0789]

For me, the surprise of my teachers came when they saw I was engaged in the classroom. My sis wasn't necessarily enthusiastic about learning like I was. And then came the requisite "You two look nothing alike!" to which we always responded with a "Why thank you!"

My sis and I were always too close in age to enjoy each other's company. As we've gotten older and gone to college, the geographical distance has helped, but even now we still get on each others nerves. Kinda hard to bond with-- for years she was raving on and on about SG-1, saying it was SO much better than Atlantis (which is what I got started on, Stargate-wise), but when I finally saw it for myself and was like "Oh my gosh, you're totally right!!", she was suddenly no longer interested, and gave me that look that says, You're weird. You're sure we're related?

Go figure!!

In contrast, my bro and I are five years apart and thick as thieves. It helps that we both have similar personalities. My sis is the girly type, where my bro and I are more the masculine type. Very low maintenance and rather mellow. Similar senses of humor (read dirty)... Hee hee!

[Starfist]

School...

My school days seem so far away now. Well it has been nearly 25 years since I left school at the age of 19. And I seem to remember having no problems with any of my teachers at any level.

I have some teachers who inspired me at various levels.
Ms. Jackson who taught me for 2 years at Shaftsbury primary school. She gave me my first 'Biggles' book. And encouraged me to read.
Mr. Sullivan, he also encouraged me to read. I was reading some books at a higher level thanks to his encouragement. From what I can remember about Mr Sullivan he actually cared about the pupils he taught. And I owe him a lot.

Whilst there are to many of my senior school teachers that deserve mention. For without their patience and help I wouldn't have left school with the qualifications I received.

[selene0789]

All right, novelists, I have a quick question.

What's the word count on an average novel? I know, this is probably the most newbie of questions to ask, and may get me dozens of "there is no right answer to this question..." but I gotta ask anyway.

Is there at least a minimum range of a word count that's typical of a fiction novel? It's hard to judge the number of *book* pages in a Word document, but I wanna get an idea of what I have so far, so that I may actually devise myself a set number of words/equivalent pages to make my goal per week/month. You know?

Trying to get serious on this book writing thing.

[SF_and_Coffee]

All right, novelists, I have a quick question.

What's the word count on an average novel? I know, this is probably the most newbie of questions to ask, and may get me dozens of "there is no right answer to this question..." but I gotta ask anyway.

Is there at least a minimum range of a word count that's typical of a fiction novel? It's hard to judge the number of *book* pages in a Word document, but I wanna get an idea of what I have so far, so that I may actually devise myself a set number of words/equivalent pages to make my goal per week/month. You know?

Trying to get serious on this book writing thing.

Here's a good, solid reference that answers your basic question. I will quote the relevant portion, but I highly recommend you read the entry. There is a lot of good advice on this blog; its author is a former literary agent who really knows her stuff. Note: Because what most of us here on GW deal with is scifi and fantasy, I've taken the liberty of setting her references for this genre in red. Note too that she says herself that material written strictly for e-book publishing rather than dead-tree publishing is not as subject to the same upper limits on word count, because there is no consideration necessary for shelf space or printing costs, as there would be in a physical book.

Word counts for different kinds of novels vary, but there is are general rules of thumb for fiction that a writer can use when trying to figure out just how long is too long. For the purposes of this post, I'm only talking about YA, middle-grade and adult fiction here. And bear in mind that there are always exceptions, but good general rules of thumb would be as follows:

middle grade fiction = Anywhere from 25k to 40k, with the average at 35k

YA fiction = For mainstream YA, anywhere from about 45k to 80k; paranormal YA or YA fantasy can occasionally run as high as 120k but editors would prefer to see them stay below 100k. The second or third in a particularly bestselling series can go even higher. But it shouldn't be word count for the sake of word count.

paranormal romance = 85k to 100k

romance = 85k to 100k

category romance = 55k to 75k

cozy mysteries = 65k to 90k

horror = 80k to 100k

western = 80k to 100k (Keep in mind that almost no editors are buying Westerns these days.)

mysteries, thrillers and crime fiction = A newer category of light paranormal mysteries and hobby mysteries clock in at about 75k to 90k. Historical mysteries and noir can be a bit shorter, at 80k to 100k. Most other mystery/thriller/crime fiction falls right around the 90k to 100k mark.

mainstream/commercial fiction/thrillers = Depending upon the kind of fiction, this can vary: chick lit runs anywhere from 80k word to 100k words; literary fiction can run as high as 120k but lately there's been a trend toward more spare and elegant literary novels as short as 65k. Anything under 50k is usually considered a novella, which isn't something agents or editors ever want to see unless the editor has commissioned a short story collection. (Agent Kristin Nelson has a good post about writers querying about manuscripts that are too short.)

science fiction & fantasy = Here's where most writers seem to have problems. Most editors I've spoken to recently at major SF/F houses want books that fall into the higher end of the adult fiction you see above; a few of them told me that 100k words is the ideal manuscript size for good space opera or fantasy. For a truly spectacular epic fantasy, some editors will consider manuscripts over 120k but it would have to be something extraordinary. I know at least one editor I know likes his fantasy big and fat and around 180k. But he doesn't buy a lot at that size; it has to be astounding. (Read: Doesn't need much editing.) And regardless of the size, an editor will expect the author to to be able to pare it down even further before publication. To make this all a little easier, I broke it down even further below:

---> hard sf = 90k to 110k
---> space opera = 90k to 120k
---> epic/high/traditional/historical fantasy = 90k to 120k
---> contemporary fantasy = 90k to 100k
---> romantic SF = 85k to 100k
---> urban fantasy = 90k to 100k
---> new weird = 85k to 110k
---> slipstream = 80k to 100k
---> comic fantasy = 80k to 100k
---> everything else = 90k to 100k

When attempting to translate the word count in a Word document to 'book pages', a good rule of thumb to remember is that a typical paperback comes in at around 250 words per page, so you can divide your total word count in the document by 250 to get a rough estimate for how many pages it would be in a physical book. There will be some discrepancy, however, as Word calculates 'word count' slightly differently than the way an agent or a publisher would. Also, bear in mind that in an actual book with chapters, you will occasionally have a page that is partly blank, due to its either being the final page of a chapter or the first page of a chapter.

As for writing goals, I know a number of novelists who set themselves a minimum goal of ~1,000 words per day.

[Raelis]

Wow, SF_and_Coffee, thank you for this information, it's very interesting! By this rule it turns out that a fanfic that I'm reading right now would take 848 pages in print!

[fems]

You can also adjust the size of your pages in Word to fit a book-style rather than A4s or whatever size you're using.

[Amara D'Angeli]

All right, novelists, I have a quick question.

What's the word count on an average novel? I know, this is probably the most newbie of questions to ask, and may get me dozens of "there is no right answer to this question..." but I gotta ask anyway.

Is there at least a minimum range of a word count that's typical of a fiction novel? It's hard to judge the number of *book* pages in a Word document, but I wanna get an idea of what I have so far, so that I may actually devise myself a set number of words/equivalent pages to make my goal per week/month. You know?

Trying to get serious on this book writing thing.

This completely doesn't answer your questions, but if you're interested in writing a novel, are you going to do Nano this year?

[selene0789]

This completely doesn't answer your questions, but if you're interested in writing a novel, are you going to do Nano this year?

I think I'm confused... but incredibly excited!

Is this a free resource, or do you pay to participate? It seems too good to be true-- I'm looking for the catch. And I see a list of winners... what do they win, and how do they win???

[selene0789]

Thanks for the info, SF_and_Coffee! That's exactly what I'm looking for. But if MS Word calculates a word count different from how an editor would... what's the difference?

I'm off to read that blog entry in full now. I'll be back....

[fems]

NaNoWriMo is free and I believe the 'prize' is simply the honor of having finished plus a certificate (in PDF or something).

[Whytewytch]

NaNoWriMo is free and I believe the 'prize' is simply the honor of having finished plus a certificate (in PDF or something).

It is and you do. Made it my first year; didn't bother trying in subsequent years, but I might do again this year. Even if I only finish half, I'll have 25,000 words written and that's no small potatoes.

These are what I received. Spoilered for pic-heaviness; they're small, but just in case.

Spoiler: