Fanfic Writers' Virtual Water Cooler

[Princess Awinita]

Yep. I'm also blessed with characters who tell me the story. I've learned not to argue with them.

Same here, if Lake or Swallowtail or Thunderstrike want me to write what they say I just do as asked, no questions asked for that matter {No, seriously, if Lake shows up on my muse's doorstep looking like she'd been set on fire and also through a zombie attack and a LOTR Orc attack {or just plain motor oil bath} I merely ask what is on her mind, she tells me, I write it, simple as that}

Though I tryr not to anger her, I already irked her in many ways {cat transforming sometimes gets to be a headache}

[Gatefan1976]

I agree on this. I don't need dice and paper to figure out what my characters are doing. I simply close my eyes and picture the scene in my head. The characters tell me what they are doing at that point and if I try to force them to do anything different, I'll be stalled for weeks.

This is not what I mean at all, I am talking about the processes of breathing life and individuality into characters by "getting into thier heads" the same way a good RP'er can, NOT the pen and paper mechanics of the game in question.

[SF_and_Coffee]

This is not what I mean at all, I am talking about the processes of breathing life and individuality into characters by "getting into thier heads" the same way a good RP'er can, NOT the pen and paper mechanics of the game in question.

*scratches head*

I don't know... I mean, if an author isn't already in their character's heads (and probably vice-versa), I guess I'm having a hard time figuring out how playing or pretending to play an RPG is going to help. For characterization issues related to how a given character would react to various situations, it's generally best to just sit down and ask the character.

[Amara D'Angeli]

*scratches head*

I don't know... I mean, if an author isn't already in their character's heads (and probably vice-versa), I guess I'm having a hard time figuring out how playing or pretending to play an RPG is going to help. For characterization issues related to how a given character would react to various situations, it's generally best to just sit down and ask the character.

This is something we learn to do in time and perhaps a skill we've come to take for granted.

Maybe some people who are new to writing haven't yet experienced a conversation with their characters. I know mine have had conversations with one another in my head for a long time. At some point I either had to chose between being a writer or being schizophrenic.

[SF_and_Coffee]

This is something we learn to do in time and perhaps a skill we've come to take for granted.

Maybe some people who are new to writing haven't yet experienced a conversation with their characters. I know mine have had conversations with one another in my head for a long time.

I'm probably a complete outlier, then, because my characters have been telling me their stories -- and chattering at each other in there as well -- almost since I first began writing.

At some point I either had to chose between being a writer or being schizophrenic.

Best. Line. Ever.

[Gatefan1976]

*scratches head*

I don't know... I mean, if an author isn't already in their character's heads (and probably vice-versa), I guess I'm having a hard time figuring out how playing or pretending to play an RPG is going to help. For characterization issues related to how a given character would react to various situations, it's generally best to just sit down and ask the character.

Lets dial this back a bit.
How do you *as an author* make that initial "connection" to a character?
Do they "pop in" as fully formed entities, or are they nebulous shapes in the back of your mind?
If you are lucky enough to have the former, then you are quite correct, an exercise such as this would serve no purpose for you.

[Amara D'Angeli]

I'm probably a complete outlier, then, because my characters have been telling me their stories -- and chattering at each other in there as well -- almost since I first began writing.


Best. Line. Ever.

I grew up on a farm so I used to spend long, long hours mowing the back forty (and the front forty, the East forty, yadda, yadda, yadda...). I used to write in my head. I'd concoct long scenarios between characters while perched on the tractor simply to pass the time. And I swear, while one of the voices was always mine, the other(s) belonged to wholly different individuals. To this day, all I've got to do is get in (or on) a moving vehicle and I'm creating. I've had to take to carrying a voice recorder because some of the best exchanges occur at 70 miles an hour on the interstate. (And other commuters get really creative with their gestures when they see you with a pen and legal pad perched on the steering wheel.)

[Amara D'Angeli]

Lets dial this back a bit.
How do you *as an author* make that initial "connection" to a character?
Do they "pop in" as fully formed entities, or are they nebulous shapes in the back of your mind?
If you are lucky enough to have the former, then you are quite correct, an exercise such as this would serve no purpose for you.

Obviously, I can't speak for SF, but for me they aren't necessarily fully formed. Not at first. But as more conversations occurs I learn more and more about them. I like to think they're never fully formed until I'm done writing with them, anyway. I'm not the kind that can fill out a character bio before I write and then write a story about that person. I keep learning about them as I put them in new situations. But they always start with something - even if it's little. A job. A look. One crazy line that just pops into my head.

[Gatefan1976]

Obviously, I can't speak for SF, but for me they aren't necessarily fully formed. Not at first. But as more conversations occurs I learn more and more about them. I like to think they're never fully formed until I'm done writing with them, anyway.

This is the point where an exercise such as what I am suggesting may help. It's not so much about "playing a game", but finding out what a character would do in a situation, getting to know what drives and motivates them.

I'm not the kind that can fill out a character bio before I write and then write a story about that person. I keep learning about them as I put them in new situations. But they always start with something - even if it's little. A job. A look. One crazy line that just pops into my head.

The bolded part is exactly why I made the suggestion in the first place.

[Amara D'Angeli]

This is the point where an exercise such as what I am suggesting may help. It's not so much about "playing a game", but finding out what a character would do in a situation, getting to know what drives and motivates them.



The bolded part is exactly why I made the suggestion in the first place.

Oh, I'm not arguing against your suggestion.

I'm not sure it'd work for me - as I mentioned before, I'm way too type-A for a roll of the dice, see what happens next, sort of approach. That's not to say I always go wherever my brain takes me next. Sometimes I back up and try a new scenario. But the idea that there are fifteen possibilities for what could happen right in front of me and I'm going to roll the dice and choose a path and then roll again to see what happens next scares the crap out of me. I like being the master of what happens.

But I can see how that approach would appeal for some. I think it'd be a lot more useful for plot than characterization, though.

[SF_and_Coffee]

Lets dial this back a bit.
How do you *as an author* make that initial "connection" to a character?
Do they "pop in" as fully formed entities, or are they nebulous shapes in the back of your mind?
If you are lucky enough to have the former, then you are quite correct, an exercise such as this would serve no purpose for you.

Generally speaking, they pop into my mind with at least some framework upon which to hang their personalities, and then as I interact with them by writing a few scenes, they take on full being. It never takes very long for most of them to become fully-realized people in their own right, and some of them become so fully-formed that they've been known to sit straight up on the page and argue with me when I'm writing them in ways that they feel aren't true to who they are. Frank has done that a few times, but he isn't the only one with whom I've had this experience.

I'll be honest, I have had a few characters who were less than fully-realized for several chapters, but even so, I just can't see how any amount of RPG playing would have helped me to flesh them out any faster. Then again, you've read my current WIP, and there isn't really a whole lot in it that would lend itself to gameplay mode. Most of my fiction (original and fanfic) is like that; my characters reveal themselves both to me and to the reader via conversation and internal reflection rather than by what they do in a fight. You know how introspective Frank can be, and I can't imagine how anything like that could be translated to game mode. Most of the characters in my original fiction reveal themselves in similar ways, or else through being observed by characters who are that contemplative.

I grew up on a farm so I used to spend long, long hours mowing the back forty (and the front forty, the East forty, yadda, yadda, yadda...). I used to write in my head. I'd concoct long scenarios between characters while perched on the tractor simply to pass the time. And I swear, while one of the voices was always mine, the other(s) belonged to wholly different individuals. To this day, all I've got to do is get in (or on) a moving vehicle and I'm creating. I've had to take to carrying a voice recorder because some of the best exchanges occur at 70 miles an hour on the interstate. (And other commuters get really creative with their gestures when they see you with a pen and legal pad perched on the steering wheel.)

This. Early on in my writing career, I used to do very much the same thing while walking behind a mower on my family's rural 2.5 acres, or hiking in the woods, or whatever else. These days it still happens while I'm hiking, or taking a walk, or driving along the interstate or even city streets. Or taking a shower. Some people sing in the shower; I do mental writing in there instead.

[SF_and_Coffee]

This is the point where an exercise such as what I am suggesting may help. It's not so much about "playing a game", but finding out what a character would do in a situation, getting to know what drives and motivates them.

But there are only a limited number of situations you can game. How on earth do you RPG a guy learning a new language (Frank), or finding out that his wife is cheating on him (a guy in one of my non-fanfic stories) or a new parent dealing with the birth of his or her first child?

To me, RPG basically says, "Go into this place, battle this or that opponent, find this or that desired object, and get yourself and the object out of there without getting killed or seriously injured." It really isn't useful for describing how two characters build a friendship or how someone learns to deal with their life being turned upside down. My fiction is far more psychological than action-oriented, despite there being action in it. But by the time I put a character into an action situation, I already have a pretty good idea how they'll react to it because I've taken the time to get to know them through conversation and observing their own internal self-talk. Doesn't mean they never surprise me, but again, even when that does happen, it isn't anything I'd have been able to learn if I'd gotten out a set of dice.

[Gatefan1976]

I hate the fact that RPG's in the popular mindset have been reduced to "kill the bad guy and nab the new toys"

This may help explain my position better:
http://www.topmudsites.com/rp101-01.shtml

[Gatefan1976]

But there are only a limited number of situations you can game.

No, there isn't.

How on earth do you RPG a guy learning a new language (Frank), or finding out that his wife is cheating on him (a guy in one of my non-fanfic stories) or a new parent dealing with the birth of his or her first child?

Just trust me on this, if you are actually "role playing", it's easier than you may think. The problem you and I are having here SF&C is our essential definitions of "role-playing" are vastly different. True role-playing is more akin to "Whose line is it anyway", NOT "World of Warcraft"

To me, RPG basically says, "Go into this place, battle this or that opponent, find this or that desired object, and get yourself and the object out of there without getting killed or seriously injured." It really isn't useful for describing how two characters build a friendship or how someone learns to deal with their life being turned upside down. My fiction is far more psychological than action-oriented, despite there being action in it. But by the time I put a character into an action situation, I already have a pretty good idea how they'll react to it because I've taken the time to get to know them through conversation and observing their own internal self-talk. Doesn't mean they never surprise me, but again, even when that does happen, it isn't anything I'd have been able to learn if I'd gotten out a set of dice.

Again, this is where our definitions are wildly different. If you read that article I linked above, what you are talking about is "Roll-Play", not "Role-Play", or to put it in a way where we may be on the same level of understanding, for you "roleplaying" is what you have written above, to *me* it's closer to improv theater.

[SF_and_Coffee]

Not the popular mindset. My own personal experience. I used to play D&D and Traveller. I know how the games work, and I've never once encountered an RPG that would handle any of the stuff I've mentioned as being important to characterization in my style of writing.

The last time I played any sort of RPG was just as I was getting the ball rolling on All That We Leave Behind, as a matter of fact. If you have a login for Alternatehistory.com, go there and look for "Everyone Goes To Bogie's". Posts by TimeJockey are mine, and begin here.

That game comes a lot closer to what you're probably thinking of, but it still wasn't the gameplay itself that led to my development of my character's personality. I gave her a history and a personality because she wouldn't have been a very effective character without those things, and I could just as easily have developed her in the context of a story as in a game. The gameplay isn't what made her who she was; who she was determined what she did in the game, and I fleshed her out before I really began playing, because that's what I do as a writer. I create characters who are people, and I can do that even more easily in a story than in a game, because in a game I'm dependent on the actions of others, whereas in a story I have a lot more control over what's going on.

I abandoned this game sort of in mid-stride because there are only so many hours in a day and I had to make a choice between spending them playing an RPG or spending them on writing a story that had formed in my head and demanded to be written. The story won, and that's why All That We Leave Behind exists.

And no, there is no analog in roleplay to the sort of thing I do when creating a character and situations in writing fiction. At the very least, there's nothing in roleplaying that I need in order to create such a character. What you're calling roleplaying has nothing to do with the game itself and everything to do with a person's innate creativity. While people can and do create some very intricate characters in RPGs, it isn't the playing of the game that brings this about; it's the creativity of the player, and that kind of creativity can happen quite well in contexts other than gaming. Trust me, there's no way I could RPG 90% of what's in ATWLB better than I can just come up with it in the context of writing a story. I know what I want to have happen, and I just work on envisioning a way to bring that about in the story I'm creating. It doesn't require other players, or outside input, and if all you're talking about is playing the game with just myself, then I don't really see the point of it because making it a game would only serve to add another layer of remove between myself as author and what I want to create in the story itself.

As for roll-play, yes, I know the difference. But just remember that the initial discussion got us into the territory where Princess Awinita talked about using dice and all of that to set up battles, and only now have you moved the conversation to any other aspect. No criticism intended, but somehow I don't think it's me (or at least not only me) who took a wrong turn...