Fanfic Writers' Virtual Water Cooler

[SF_and_Coffee]

I'm honestly not sure when the double standard occured. I think (and this is going to make me unpopular, I'm sure) there's a general feeling of entitlement amongst internet audiences that we don't have to be offended if we don't want to be. And rather than policing ourselves we've begun to demand others do it for us. "Don't offend me, don't hurt my feelings, don't scare me." Very common themes out there these days. (That I see, anyway. I could be way off base here.)

For me it isn't that at all. I very rarely buy a book without reading a review of it first, and certainly I don't buy one without reading the back-cover summary/blurb. That and the cover art usually will hint at most of what I can expect from a book. Now, obviously, once in a while I'll still run across something around page 238 or so that just leaves me cold, but most of the time that doesn't happen. And it isn't about "not being offended" so much as simply not wanting to waste my time reading a story that's going to be a complete turnoff. I'm difficult to offend, but there are things I just don't enjoy reading about, and if a story is going to heavily involve those things, then I'd rather know up front so I can give it a miss, the same way I'd skip over a book in the bookstore if I know it involves things I don't enjoy reading about.

The thing is, in fanfic there isn't necessarily the option of cover art, nor of a long summary that can give the reader a clear idea of what kind of story they're looking at. Therefore, putting the most important items into a summary is critical, and if the story includes something like rape or torture, that's pretty damn important. Partner betrayal... meh, not so much, since warning about that can give away a plot point and most people aren't going to be nearly as affected by seeing a couple break up as they are by reading about someone being raped or tortured (if your reader is someone who was a rape victim, for example, they're probably NOT going to want to read about a character getting raped, trust me).

So you warn, out of consideration for your readers. Most professionally-published books that involve rape or torture in their plotline do make this clear or at least strongly hint about it in their summaries (note that I said 'most', not 'all'), which functions in the same way.

Shifting pairings? I can't speak to that at all, as it isn't something that would bother me, considering that I don't read for any One True Pairing anyway. (I don't really read ship-centric fanfic of any description anyway, and prefer stories in which any shipping of canon characters with one another is either absent or is only ancillary to the rest of the story.)

[Gatefan1976]

Every bookstore I go to - labels-galore.

Really?!?
What kind of bookstores do you frequent..............

[Raelis]

Where? Where are these labels? What are the labels for? Can you give me an example because I'm really starting to think we're talking about two different things here.

My book stores are set up with categories like: Fiction, Fantasy, Historical, Biography, Self-Help, etc. I can't simply walk over to a shelf that says, "Torture". If you've got a book with a warning on it, could you give me a title? I'd like to see what these things look like.

I know some romance novels I used to read as a teen had ratings (I could read G-rated ones, but R-rated? No way,sir! I was too pure and innocent for that stuff)

A computer game I was just holding in my hands has such warnings as "Violence" and "Sexual content".

[Amara D'Angeli]

For me it isn't that at all. I very rarely buy a book without reading a review of it first, and certainly I don't buy one without reading the back-cover summary/blurb. That and the cover art usually will hint at most of what I can expect from a book. Now, obviously, once in a while I'll still run across something around page 238 or so that just leaves me cold, but most of the time that doesn't happen. And it isn't about "not being offended" so much as simply not wanting to waste my time reading a story that's going to be a complete turnoff. I'm difficult to offend, but there are things I just don't enjoy reading about, and if a story is going to heavily involve those things, then I'd rather know up front so I can give it a miss, the same way I'd skip over a book in the bookstore if I know it involves things I don't enjoy reading about.

You've actually brought up a very important distinction we hadn't really drawn in the sand yet during this discussion. There's a big difference between someone being offended by something and someone literally being unable to handle something. Rape victims that can't read about rape, etc.

And you do bring up an important distinction about the differences between published works and fics and being able to read book reviews and long blurbs on published works.

So, if that's the case, couldn't fic author's take the time to write an AN before the beginning of their story if the FFN block is too small to accurately sum up what you might be reading about?

And really, it's not the warnings themselves that I'm railing against. As I've mentioned several times, I use some of them. I'm more concerned by the group of people that get all up in arms when they happen upon something they don't like because there wasn't a warning about it. And then, they're vocal about their upset. It's really hard to generalize and I feel like the people who demand warnings are generalizing that their line in the sand is the line in the sand that should be the standard and, therefore, warned for.

For me it's much more about principle than practice.

[Amara D'Angeli]

I know some romance novels I used to read as a teen had ratings (I could read G-rated ones, but R-rated? No way,sir! I was too pure and innocent for that stuff)

A computer game I was just holding in my hands has such warnings as "Violence" and "Sexual content".

I'm not sure a computer game counts in this argument. I never saw a rating on a book - romance novel or not. Which is probably a good thing. I'd have been carded for (and denied) 75% of the books I read as a teenager.

[Gatefan1976]

I know some romance novels I used to read as a teen had ratings (I could read G-rated ones, but R-rated? No way,sir! I was too pure and innocent for that stuff)

I have very vivid memories of my 18 year old brother taking "It" of me when I was 14 and proceeding to read where I was up to to the entire back half of the school bus in a vain attempt to embarrass his little bookworm brother.
Geez did that backfire on him

A computer game I was just holding in my hands has such warnings as "Violence" and "Sexual content".

Yeah, "generic warnings" I don't really have an issue with. In fact, as I said if it is the Ettiquette, then I don't have a problem with it at all. It's just curious to me

[fems]

So, if that's the case, couldn't fic author's take the time to write an AN before the beginning of their story if the FFN block is too small to accurately sum up what you might be reading about?

Isn't that the same thing as a warning? I just label it as warning (i.e. graphic sex, violence, language, rape, non-con/reluctance).

I'm not sure a computer game counts in this argument. I never saw a rating on a book - romance novel or not. Which is probably a good thing. I'd have been carded for (and denied) 75% of the books I read as a teenager.

Those are often in different sections in bookstores here (libraries especially and they indeed have little warning stickers/labels on them).

[Amara D'Angeli]

Depends on how it's worded, I suppose.

That last one was my fault because I didn't express myself well. I meant, couldn't the author write a longer summary inside the fic since there is a character limit on the link.

[SF_and_Coffee]

Well, perhaps we're talking about two different things. I don't have a single book at home that has a warning label on it. Nor do I have to shop in a specific section of the store for books that feature rape or murder or death or gore - they're simply mixed in with the books for whichever genre they most closely resemble.

For instance, my book club recently read We Need to Talk About Kevin by Lionel Shriver. The book is about a Columbine like killing. There's not a warning on that book for anything of the thing you could imagine it would need one for in a fannish community. Same story with Nineteen Minutes by Jodi Picoult.

Amazon.com has this to say about "We Need To Talk About Kevin":

The gripping international bestseller about motherhood gone awry

Eva never really wanted to be a mother—and certainly not the mother of the unlovable boy who murdered seven of his fellow high school students, a cafeteria worker, and a much-adored teacher who tried to befriend him, all two days before his sixteenth birthday. Now, two years later, it is time for her to come to terms with marriage, career, family, parenthood, and Kevin’s horrific rampage in a series of startlingly direct correspondences with her estranged husband, Franklin. Uneasy with the sacrifices and social demotion of motherhood from the start, Eva fears that her alarming dislike for her own son may be responsible for driving him so nihilistically off the rails.

I'll assume that this is either the same as what appears on the back of the book, or at least that something similar appears there. So I'd say that anyone picking up that book to read it is probably already fairly well warned that it contains murder, etc.

About "Nineteen Minutes", Amazon.com says this:

Jodi Picoult, bestselling author of My Sister's Keeper and The Tenth Circle, pens her most riveting book yet, with a startling and poignant story about the devastating aftermath of a small-town tragedy.

Sterling is an ordinary New Hampshire town where nothing ever happens--until the day its complacency is shattered by an act of violence. Josie Cormier, the daughter of the judge sitting on the case, should be the state's best witness, but she can't remember what happened before her very own eyes--or can she? As the trial progresses, fault lines between the high school and the adult community begin to show--destroying the closest of friendships and families. Nineteen Minutes asks what it means to be different in our society, who has the right to judge someone else, and whether anyone is ever really who they seem to be.

Okay, not quite as much detail in that, but still I do think it warns adequately that there will be violence.

[Falcon Horus]

My book stores are set up with categories like: Fiction, Fantasy, Historical, Biography, Self-Help, etc.

Labels which are explanatory as to what a person can find inside the cover. On the back there will sometimes be a summary. And reviews label a book as well.

I can't simply walk over to a shelf that says, "Torture".

No, that you can't.

If you've got a book with a warning on it, could you give me a title? I'd like to see what these things look like.

This will be totally pointless since you don't know the book and will never read it unless you know Dutch, but the summary on the back of Kongo by Martin Heylen clearly indicates bloody events will be taking place. Though anyone familiar with the colonial history of Zaire knows the bloody history.

A summary in that way can be very telling... thus labelling the content.

Other than that none of my other books, which are all fantasy or scientific in nature, speak volumes on their contents.

Reviews are also a good source...

ETA: I just did a quick google search on "warning labels on books" and got some hits that suggest that libraries in certain areas are putting warning labels on their books. But I'm not sure we're talking about libraries here.

I'm guessing my library-times are stuck in my subconscious.

Really?!?
What kind of bookstores do you frequent..............

None, if I can help it... too many still to read, but occasional browsing does tend to happen.

[Raelis]

I'm not sure a computer game counts in this argument.

I think it does. Games can be as valid form of storytelling as books and movies.

[Gatefan1976]

I think it does. Games can be as valid form of storytelling as books and movies.

I'm with you here.

[SF_and_Coffee]

And yes, to be clear here... whether it's in the exterior summary on a fic site or in an Author's Note that heads up the very first page/chapter of the fic, placing a warning of some sort about certain elements of the story in there counts in my mind as a 'warning'. I appreciate them being there, because then I can decide whether or not to spend my time reading a story based on some idea of how likely I am to enjoy it.

I'm a HUGE fan of Author's Notes, as anyone who's read my own fanfic can attest.

[Amara D'Angeli]

Amazon.com has this to say about "We Need To Talk About Kevin":



I'll assume that this is either the same as what appears on the back of the book, or at least that something similar appears there. So I'd say that anyone picking up that book to read it is probably already fairly well warned that it contains murder, etc.

About "Nineteen Minutes", Amazon.com says this:



Okay, not quite as much detail in that, but still I do think it warns adequately that there will be violence.

Precisely my point: if a story is summarized properly, readers will know what they're getting into without needing specific warnings.

Part of it, that just occured to me, might be that I'm bothered by the instant gratification of warnings. If a reader can read a two paragraph (or two sentence, depending on the story, I suppose) description of my work and then decide for themselves whether or not it sounds like something they'd like to read, I can respect that a lot more than just warning that my story contains _________ "trigger". For instance: if someone warned of animal death simply because that was a typical warning, I'd pass up a story. But suppose in the story the animal dies of old age or has to be put down for a good reason? I could handle that and might have missed a great story simply because I took the "animal death" warning as the hard line. My hardline is senseless or violent animal death. I might have missed a great story for a generalized warning. Chances are a good summary would have told me what kind of animal death I'd see.

[Amara D'Angeli]

I think it does. Games can be as valid form of storytelling as books and movies.

Okay, I'll give you that.