Grammar / Spelling / Punctuation Discussion and Appreciation (questions welcome!)

[Goose]

Ukraine, or the Ukraine?

[SF_and_Coffee]

The Ukraine.

[Goose]

The Ukraine.

Really? Because to me, it sounds a bit... odd. The only country I know that are officially called "The" is, aside from The United States and similar ones, is The Gambia. It's not officially called The Ukraine, is it?

[SF_and_Coffee]

Yes, it's officially The Ukraine. Don't ask me why, because I don't know either. *shrug*

[mathpiglet]

Here's an interesting article. I'm not sure how 'official' it is.

http://www.infoukes.com/faq/the_ukraine/

[SF_and_Coffee]

I will offer this as my only input beyond what I am used to seeing:

I happen to live in an area where there are quite a few Ukrainian immigrants. Almost without exception, they refer to their nation of origin as "The Ukraine" when doing so in English.

Knowing what I know about their language, I have no idea why.

[Goose]

Well, as it turns out, according to the UN, it's officially Ukraine. But then once again, it's also officially Netherlands, but we always refer to it as The Netherlands.

As for the Ukrainian language, I asked one of my friends who speaks it, and she said that in Ukrainian, you refer to it as "Ukraine", since "the" doesn't exist in Ukrainian. In English, she also refers to it without the "the", but she knows people of Ukrainian decent who do use "the".

[SF_and_Coffee]

Yep, like I said, I don't know why some do.

I always heard it with "the" even before I lived in an area with a lot of people from that background, and learned it in school that way, so for me it's probably an ingrained thing.

Hmmm... now I'm wondering how the UN designates the US. With or without "the"?

[Goose]

Yep, like I said, I don't know why some do.

I always heard it with "the" even before I lived in an area with a lot of people from that background, and learned it in school that way, so for me it's probably an ingrained thing.

Hmmm... now I'm wondering how the UN designates the US. With or without "the"?

United States of America, without "the". That's also the official name of the USA, without "the", according to the US itself.

[SF_and_Coffee]

Depends on what you read, though. An awful lot of even our government publications use "the" before it.

[Goose]

Depends on what you read, though. An awful lot of even our government publications use "the" before it.

Indeed, but that doesn't necessarily make it the official form. For example, you write the Netherlands, yet the official name is Netherlands, without "the". I looked up the text of the NAFTA agreement, and in it, it refers to the US as "the United States of America", with a small "t" at the beginning. This, at least to me, indicates that "the" is not part of the official name, because otherwise it would read "The United States of America". Compare this to The Gambia, which is always referred to with a large "t", because the official name of the country as per its constitution is The Gambia.

[mathpiglet]

Well, as it turns out, according to the UN, it's officially Ukraine. But then once again, it's also officially Netherlands, but we always refer to it as The Netherlands.

As for the Ukrainian language, I asked one of my friends who speaks it, and she said that in Ukrainian, you refer to it as "Ukraine", since "the" doesn't exist in Ukrainian. In English, she also refers to it without the "the", but she knows people of Ukrainian decent who do use "the".

But in Dutch, The Netherlands is referred to as Nederland. No the. I guess it makes more sense in English to say The Lowlands, which is what The Netherlands means.

[SF_and_Coffee]

AAAAAaaaauuuuuugggghhhh!!!

I see this everywhere!

"Breath" is a noun. "Breathe" is a verb. You don't "breath", you "breathe"!

Thank you.

[SF_and_Coffee]

For those who aren't already fans, I give you Grammar Girl, now with podcasts.

[mathpiglet]

Bothers you so much, you had to post it twice?

*quietly hums, Breathe on me, breath of God...*

That's how I remember the difference.