Grammar / Spelling / Punctuation Discussion and Appreciation (questions welcome!)

[Goose]

I'm helping my girlfriend learn Swedish, and most every time she asks a question about grammar, I'm stumped. I know what's right and what's wrong, but I don't know why it's right or wrong. It's quite annoying, actually.

[LizzieAnne]

I think that's what happens with your own language, you don't need to know the rules to write it..or speak it.

I work with a girl where English is her second language. She speaks and writes it excellently but when she writes letters or e-mails to clients, I check them as she often falls foul of the little things. She often wants to know the reasons and I find that really hard, so looking up the rules has helped me explain it and learn it for my writing as well. That's a win.

[SF_and_Coffee]

When I edit someone's work, if I see a mistake repeated, I like to explain the rule, not just keep correcting. I assume (sometimes even correctly!) that they would want to know so they don't make the same mistake in future docs and I can concentrate on something else (another aspect of grammar, plot, characterization, etc). I actually don't know the "rules" of grammar so much as have a feel for it--it looks, sounds, feels, right or wrong. I have had to re-learn the rules since coming back to writing.

That's exactly how it is for me! I internalized the rules so thoroughly as a kid in school that they approach the level of instinct now. In order to actually explain them to someone, I either have to really think about it, or look them up.

The really funny part, though, is that I came to understand them better in the abstract the first time I studied a foreign language.

[WraithRichard]

Does English have a mixed/gender singular pronoun? Or a non-gender one to refer to a person?

I've asked my LGBTQ friends and they etierh refer to themselves as the sex they've chosen (in the case of transgenders) or the sex they're born with (in the case of asexuals).

I'm not sure what to go with for a symbiote who's given up on the sex-gender thing and just asks the host what's in the underwear when asked, though hasn't check his/her/whatever's last few hosts on the specifics of those details.

[SF_and_Coffee]

Does English have a mixed/gender singular pronoun? Or a non-gender one to refer to a person?

Not officially, although many people use "sie" and "hir" for this purpose, including one friend of mine who is a high school English teacher. "Sie" is used in place of "he" and "she", and "hir" is used in place of "him", "his" and "her".

I'm not sure what to go with for a symbiote who's given up on the sex-gender thing and just asks the host what's in the underwear when asked, though hasn't check his/her/whatever's last few hosts on the specifics of those details.

Well, Tok'ra/Goa'uld symbiotes are technically considered either male or genderless, except for the queens who are biologically female (or perhaps hermaphroditic). However, a non-queen symbiote is generally known to take on the gender of its current host, and since both Goa'uld and Tok'ra are very familiar with humans as a species, they shouldn't have to ask, since they can recognize male and female humans by secondary sex characteristics (breasts, facial hair, body shape, etc.). Once the symbiote takes a host and integrates with him or her, the symbiote would be pretty intimately familiar with body details.

[Feast of the Muse]

Not officially, although many people use "sie" and "hir" for this purpose, including one friend of mine who is a high school English teacher. "Sie" is used in place of "he" and "she", and "hir" is used in place of "him", "his" and "her".

Really? I'm so jealous that I never knew that! Ok so, sie is the pronoun and hir is the possessive. That's a total revelation to me.

[WraithRichard]

My friend, when it comes to pronouns for other people to refer to him or for official documents (like a driver's license) goes by genetics. However, he doesn't classify himself as male or female.


I'm more going for a character like that. Mentally there's no gender or at least concern over it.

Since the symbiote is sharing a mind, and a body they don't really dictate the genes of, would it make more sense to just 'go with the flow' or prefer something genderless when they're in charge?

[SF_and_Coffee]

My friend, when it comes to pronouns for other people to refer to him or for official documents (like a driver's license) goes by genetics. However, he doesn't classify himself as male or female.


I'm more going for a character like that. Mentally there's no gender or at least concern over it.

Since the symbiote is sharing a mind, and a body they don't really dictate the genes of, would it make more sense to just 'go with the flow' or prefer something genderless when they're in charge?

Well, in most Tok'ra I've encountered either in the show or in fic, the symbiote tends to take on some mental characteristics of the host, if for no other reason than the sake of convention. So I would generally expect the symbiote to 'go with the flow'. The major exception to this in canon, of course, is Selmak/Jacob. Garoosh, Selmak's host immediately prior to Jacob, was female, and at least apocryphally in fanfic, there is the idea that Selmak had mainly female hosts prior to Jacob and therefore identifies as female from long inhabiting female host bodies, so much so that even while blended with Jacob, Selmak considers herself female, despite knowing full well that Jacob is decidedly male.

[mathpiglet]

snip
The really funny part, though, is that I came to understand them better in the abstract the first time I studied a foreign language.

I agree. I came to understand English better when I studied Latin.

Then when I had to teach English to Deaf students one dreadful semester, I learned even more.

[WraithRichard]

Well, in most Tok'ra I've encountered either in the show or in fic, the symbiote tends to take on some mental characteristics of the host, if for no other reason than the sake of convention. So I would generally expect the symbiote to 'go with the flow'. The major exception to this in canon, of course, is Selmak/Jacob. Garoosh, Selmak's host immediately prior to Jacob, was female, and at least apocryphally in fanfic, there is the idea that Selmak had mainly female hosts prior to Jacob and therefore identifies as female from long inhabiting female host bodies, so much so that even while blended with Jacob, Selmak considers herself female, despite knowing full well that Jacob is decidedly male.

I sure hope shopping and ordering pizza works just as easily.

[mathpiglet]

I know the rule for doubling the last letter of a one syllable word of the form cvc when adding a suffix. So hop becomes hopping, sag becomes sagging.

However, what about multi-syllable words? Travel for example. Traveling or travelling? My spell check likes both.

I tend to use the one l version, but my mentor wants me to double it. What do you say?

[SF_and_Coffee]

IIRC, "traveling" tends to be the norm in the US, while "travelling" is the norm in the UK. I've no idea what is the norm in Canada; obviously you'd know better than I. But it does seem to be one of those words where either version is acceptable. That doesn't mean, of course, that it sets any sort of rule for other multisyllabic words vis-a-vis the double consonant rule.

As if English weren't already irregular enough before we began adding to that by using different spellings depending upon what portion of the world one is in!

[Feast of the Muse]

When I was in marketing full-time, my boss and I used to argue over "cancelled" (my preference) and "canceled" (his preference). I have become comfortable with either one these days. I just act like it's a British spelling or something.

[mathpiglet]

Funny thing is, SF, is that my mentor is American and she wants me to double it, while I'm happy to leave it as one l. Think of all the l's that can be saved by not doubling!

[SF_and_Coffee]

Heh. Do it whichever way you feel most comfortable, but just keep it consistent throughout your work, and you'll be fine.