Return of the Ancients

[bradly08]

Interesting enough chapter, lots of info on the wraith that is very intriguing

[NIMBUS]

heh want to get scared people?

Spoiler:

remember when i said this

wraith will prob get their hands on a few lanteans, they might just be 'clumsy' enough to get captured

well there is a chance that still powerless alterra could get captured (one that's still transforming) and the only one who's still transforming is jack... and if this is to happen, we can say bye to him
...so how do you feel about saying bye to jack? scared yet?

[Lant3an]

nah jack will probably just play golf from now on, but this time through different stargate colors and across galaxies

[ussrelativity]

I am glad that we're getting back on the Atlantis front again.

I wonder what Janus is doing right now.

[bradly08]

nah jack will probably just play golf from now on, but this time through different stargate colors and across galaxies

That is deffently somthing Jack would do

[ussrelativity]

"Hey Ryan, you got any galaxies even further out I can putt through? I've already gone through the list you gave me."

[Rasunda]

The HELL he's going to be put off! NO! A BIG NO NO!

[Aer'ki]

This is a review posted on FF.net, and I'd like to address the last bit about Alterran morality.

Scotius
2010-08-10 . chapter 1
Another interesting, albeit a bit "chatty" chapter. Facts about Wraith provenience and physiology seems plausible and plug some holes left by show's authors Cant wait for big showdown though 500-600 Wraith ships vs. Atlantis - thats going to be some fireworks. One thing though: feeding living beings, non-sentients i might add, to Wraith is wrong. But vaporising living, sentient Wraiths by thousands, or even wiping their species completely is acceptable by Alterran standards? Double morality?

First off, SENTIENCE is often misconstrued as being Human. It is not. It is the difference between what I call a type 1 lifeform and a type 2 lifeform. A type 1 is simply a biological entity. It's made of cells, organic tissue, etc. A type two lifeform is a biological entity WITH SOMEONE CONTROLLING IT.

For example, a plant is a type 1. It's basically just a biological machine, all preprogrammed responses. Lights are on but nobody's home.

A dog(or human) is a type 2. Yes, we are biological, but there is someone inside making choices. We are NOT preprogrammed in the choices we make. We may be predisposed in certain ways, but there is a conscious choice that takes place, a decision. This ability to decide, or reason, is what denotes SENTIENCE.

McKay even mentions this(kudos to the writers on this one) when referring to the energy based dark cloud in SGA episode 2. He says it's sentient, but you'd have more luck trying to communicate with a great white shark...totally true. Both lifeforms are type 2, or sentient.

Yes, I know a lot of people don't want to admit that animals are living beings, but they are. If you've spent any amount of time around them, you'll begin to notice why. Take dogs for example. The ability to train them to do tricks means they have to be able to learn...learning requires reasoning. Yet another indicator of sentience.

Now, plants can adapt, but that's not the same thing as learning. The adaptation is preprogrammed...there's no thinking involved, no reasoning. Learning to catch a ball or jump through a hoop requires thought, or as some might say 'problem solving skills.'

Spoiler:

BTW, a cloned body without core energy is a type 1 lifeform. Nobody's home. So when the Asgard transfer into a cloned body, or Elizabeth, they're not killing or suppressing another sentient being, just filling an 'empty' shell.

Now, to the Wraith.

The Wraith feed off of other lifeforms. This is unacceptable. If they had no choice, it would still be unacceptable, but the Alterra would deal with them in a different way. Because the Wraith HAVE the biotech abilities to alter their physiology so the feeding process isn't necessary...they are CHOOSING to feed off other lifeforms and have been doing so for at least 10,000 years.

The Wraith had a choice, their victims did not. Because of this the Alterra have decided to wipe them out, not because of their biology, but because of the choice they made and continue to make.

Spoiler:

And no, promising future good behavior doesn't undo the 10,000 years of slaughter.

So, the Alterra don't have DOUBLE MORALITY, they are just very PRECISE with their morality, and sometimes the complexity of the situation makes it appear to be other than it truly is.

[Burns]

So in your story would an Alterrn eat meat? from what your saying no, then what is up with the long "food trains" from the orange gates (if it is the wrong color, sorry long time since I read that part). and if so do they look down on humans for eating a cow, pig, chicken? Do they eat food "cubes" like the asgard did in SG1? if they do whould that not mean that they would have less oragans, not more? Love this story I stop all too read it but if you wanna fix plot holes, which you do here are a few more I see to fix.

ps this was said as a question, not as a dis

[NIMBUS]

yea aer'ki i'll accept the types in this series as a norm because that core energy thing seams weirdly important, but in real life i don't believe that. in my opinion i'm no different from a marijuana plant and a spider and a dog, i'm just a bit more complex sack of cells. EDIT: i'm not saying you or anyone can't divide every life-form in those types, imo it's just pointless.

lol just messing with you - why isn't stevenson planning on exterminating bugs? most of them feed on type 2 life-forms and they themselves are type 2 life-forms.

oh and regarding this:

they are CHOOSING to feed off other lifeforms and have been doing so for at least 10,000 years.

and could i please get an answer to this, i didn't totally get it in the chapter... "oh and tell me if i got it right - if wraith would be 'changed' to be able to survive on regular food they would devolve into those bug-like creatures?"

[Aer'ki]

So in your story would an Alterrn eat meat? from what your saying no, then what is up with the long "food trains" from the orange gates (if it is the wrong color, sorry long time since I read that part). and if so do they look down on humans for eating a cow, pig, chicken? Do they eat food "cubes" like the asgard did in SG1? if they do whould that not mean that they would have less oragans, not more? Love this story I stop all too read it but if you wanna fix plot holes, which you do here are a few more I see to fix.

ps this was said as a question, not as a dis

Do Alterrans eat meat? Yes and no.

No to "do they kill for the meat?" They don't raise livestock to butcher for food, but they do grow 'crops' to use in food. Not so much apples, bananas, and oranges, but specific plants(type 1 lifeforms, just biological machines) to obtain certain compounds that they will then process into their 'food cubes' and such. The Orange gate network(yes, you remembered correctly) is for cargo transfer, which would include food shipments. Being that they are Ancients, they can make foods far more nutritious and logistically feasible in a factory than Humans on Earth can, so they're not lacking anything by not eating meat(as some people in real life suggest).

But do the Ancients scoff at eating meat? Yeah, they do a bit. But they wouldn't choose to starve to death if there was a supply of hamburgers sitting in front of them. Now, if there was a living cow in front of them, they wouldn't kill it to eat, but if there are hamburgers then it's already too late for whatever cow they came from, and therefore they are doing no harm by eating them, gross as it might be.

Do they look down on Humans for eating meat? Yep. Just another sign of inferiority through unacceptable practices. But here's the catch...

Nature vs. Civilization. The two are opposites. The way of the jungle, kill or be killed, is that of nature. Civilization is the antithesis of nature, so much so that you could say it is the enemy of the jungle. It is better than the jungle. The jungle must be opposed and never, never, emulated. The jungle degrades and destroys civilization...the two cannot coexist.

Knowing this, it drives the Alterra insane if they try and take up stewardship over their galaxies. Think of every living thing on Earth, and trying to keep them from killing each other for food. Not just people, but lions, and tigers, and bears, and ants, and birds, and parasites, and fish, etc. There is too much to control, and if they try they will fail and go bonkers in the process.

Because of this paradox, the Alterra societally take a step back from the rest of the galaxies. They live apart from the jungle, though will intervene when they choose. They have to do this to stay sane, otherwise the carnage and darkside of nature/jungle will overwhelm their predisposition to help others, no matter how small and insignificant those others might be.

This is why they don't drop the hammer on the humans for culling their animal heards and many other things that they wouldn't otherwise tolerate. They still see them as outsiders, but when they eventually align with them, as allies and such, then they hold them to certain standards of behavior.

yea aer'ki i'll accept the types in this series as a norm because that core energy thing seams weirdly important, but in real life i don't believe that. in my opinion i'm no different from a marijuana plant and a spider and a dog, i'm just a bit more complex sack of cells. EDIT: i'm not saying you or anyone can't divide every life-form in those types, imo it's just pointless.

lol just messing with you - why isn't stevenson planning on exterminating bugs? most of them feed on type 2 life-forms and they themselves are type 2 life-forms.

oh and regarding this:

they are CHOOSING to feed off other lifeforms and have been doing so for at least 10,000 years.
and could i please get an answer to this, i didn't totally get it in the chapter... "oh and tell me if i got it right - if wraith would be 'changed' to be able to survive on regular food they would devolve into those bug-like creatures?"

Why aren't they planning to exterminate the bugs...explanation above. Too many 'bad guys' out there, and the bugs didn't really have a choice. They were born that way.

As for the Wraith...if they stop feeding, their genetics are locked in place. They don't devolve, they just stay with whatever their latest form was.

[Serenity000]

would they kill for food if they had no choice?

[NIMBUS]

would they kill for food if they had no choice?

we haven't yet seen their survival instincts in action, you will get your answer after that chapter
...2nd thoughts, considering the passionate way he dealt with woulsy (if i remember the mood correctly) they aren't just calculating basterds, they have emotions which in my opinion means strong instincts and alterra turning into savages when seriously starving
lol that would be an awesome sight - alterra ripping a live animal apart with telekinesis, blood splashing everywhere and telekineticly guiding it into that his/her bloody mouth lol i guess i want to see alterra who's bonkers

[Lant3an]

Aer'ki a question for you... a bit offtopic but still... Do alterrans have any hair on their bodies, you know, evolution and stuff....?
btw, are you a vegetarian?

[Aer'ki]

would they kill for food if they had no choice?

Catagorically NO...though what happens or doesn't happen in survival situations isn't certain until you're living it. The Alterran line of thought is that they're not going to become the bad guys in order to survive. Sort of like how some of the Jaffa would rather die free than live as slaves. Alterra would rather die with honor than become the enemy.

However, if they were say, stranded on a lifeless planet with no technology alongside a crashed Wraith ship and knew they had X-number of days to survive before rescue...

The Wraith are already black marked, so killing them and eating them would be a last ditch option. Yes, it's gross, but in a survival situation you make due with what you've got. The Wraith are the enemy, they're going to kill them anyway, so it might as well be sooner than later so they can use the meat.

But, if there was a crashed ship of another species not an enemy of the Alterra, they wouldn't kill them for food. The Alterra would starve to death before they did something like that. Nor would they kill some indigenous species, like say womp rat, in order to survive. They'd look for whatever the womp rats were eating, or slow their metabolism and try to wait for rescue. But if faced with a situation where they HAVE to hunt for food and that's the only option...they won't do it.

Same reason they won't sacrifice a single Human to save Earth. They protect EVERYONE, not just the masses. And yes, that means there are some times when they take a hit, or can't save some people, but they won't sacrifice one to save the many. They're not Vulcans, they fight for life, they don't barter it.

There's a fine line between survival against the odds, and surviving by sacrificing others. The Alterra won't cross that line as a civilization, nor should they as individuals, though as I said it comes down to the moment to be sure.